Announcement: Be excellent to each other.

Caravel Forum : DROD Boards : Bugs : Beethro/Temporal Clone Inconsistency
 New Topic New Poll Post Reply
Poster Message
bomber50
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 872
Registered: 09-18-2006
IP: Logged

File: Time Clone Oddity.hold (1 KB)
Downloaded 53 times.
License: Public Domain
 icon Beethro/Temporal Clone Inconsistency (+1)  
This hold demonstrates a certain thing that time clones can do that Beethro cannot. It seems like a bug to me, though I'm not sure.

Click here to view the secret text

[Last edited by bomber50 at 11-26-2014 11:01 PM]
11-26-2014 at 10:49 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts This architect's holds Quote Reply
bomber50
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 872
Registered: 09-18-2006
IP: Logged

File: Time Clone Oddity 2.hold (930 bytes)
Downloaded 56 times.
License: Public Domain
 icon Re: Beethro/Temporal Clone Inconsistency (0)  
This room is probably even cooler than the last one, as it allows for something that I didn't think that was even possible.
Warning: I get beeps when solving this.

Drod.err gives me this:
Click here to view the secret text

[Last edited by bomber50 at 11-27-2014 12:01 AM]
11-26-2014 at 11:59 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts This architect's holds Quote Reply
Jacob
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 3749
Registered: 10-01-2004
IP: Logged
 icon Re: Beethro/Temporal Clone Inconsistency (0)  
I'm not getting it. Can you explain?

____________________________
New to DROD? You may want to read this.
My Holds and Levels:
Click here to view the secret text
11-27-2014 at 12:34 AM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Show all user's posts High Scores This architect's holds Quote Reply
bomber50
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 872
Registered: 09-18-2006
IP: Logged
 icon Re: Beethro/Temporal Clone Inconsistency (0)  
Temporal clones can use a tunnel to get on the same tunnel Beethro is. However, Beethro and temporal clones can not use a tunnel to get on the same tunnel a temporal clone is.
11-27-2014 at 01:39 AM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts This architect's holds Quote Reply
skell
Level: Legendary Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 3764
Registered: 12-28-2004
IP: Logged
 icon Re: Beethro/Temporal Clone Inconsistency (0)  
This has been fixed for 5.0.2. A temporal clone no longer can use a tunnel if real Beethro is standing at the tunnel's exit, the clone will just waste the move and continue as if it actually moved through (which has pretty nifty puzzle potential by the way).

____________________________
My website
02-14-2015 at 12:17 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Visit Homepage Show all user's posts High Scores This architect's holds Quote Reply
RabidChild
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 720
Registered: 01-15-2006
IP: Logged
 icon Re: Beethro/Temporal Clone Inconsistency (0)  
Wait... so the temporal clone won't just wait until the move it wants to make is available? Like it does in every other situation?
02-15-2015 at 04:31 AM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts High Scores Quote Reply
Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 4756
Registered: 02-20-2007
IP: Logged
 icon Re: Beethro/Temporal Clone Inconsistency (0)  
Yes, timeclones have a weird behaviour with blocked tunnels, and this was used in a puzzle in Elemental Showcase 5.0. Attempting to use a tunnel is considered to use up the move, even if it doesn't go anywhere. (Conversely, you can attempt to use a tunnel on a first recording, then unblock it, and the timeclone will go through the tunnel, unlike its behaviour if you bump a door and then open it.)

I'm still unsure how I feel about this behaviour, though tunnels are exceptional anyway. Standing on a single tunnel and pressing its direction will reset the Slayer's wisp, as if you moved from the tunnel and happened to land on the same square -- but mimics won't move.

____________________________
50th Skywatcher
02-15-2015 at 04:50 AM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts High Scores This architect's holds Quote Reply
Dragon Fogel
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 2467
Registered: 06-21-2014
IP: Logged
 icon Re: Beethro/Temporal Clone Inconsistency (0)  
That sounds like a bug with slayer wisps to me.
02-15-2015 at 05:44 AM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts High Scores This architect's holds Quote Reply
skell
Level: Legendary Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 3764
Registered: 12-28-2004
IP: Logged
 icon Re: Beethro/Temporal Clone Inconsistency (0)  
RabidChild wrote:
Wait... so the temporal clone won't just wait until the move it wants to make is available? Like it does in every other situation?
But they do move, they just are taken back immediately to where they started ;). But jokes aside we could probably change it, except it's clear from the code that this was intended for good reasons, to quote a comment "The player can program a command moving into a tunnel without an exit, so let the temporal clone consume the command."

That sounds like a bug with slayer wisps to me.
Yea it does sound like this, but I am fairly sure it has been already used a few times so we can do nothing about it.

____________________________
My website
02-15-2015 at 10:23 AM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Visit Homepage Show all user's posts High Scores This architect's holds Quote Reply
Lucky Luc
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1215
Registered: 08-19-2012
IP: Logged
 icon Re: Beethro/Temporal Clone Inconsistency (0)  
Uhm, I feel a little responsible for this :?

I thought this behaviour made sense (I think I posted a longish post to defend it in the voting topic), but now I'm not entirely sure anymore. The reason: Mimics don't respond!

The way timeclones work now, I would expect that if I move up through a north-facing tunnel without an exit, the mimic moves up, too. I just assumed that's the case, but apparently it isn't. This seems inconsistent to me: Either the move is counted as an upward move and Beethro ends up where he started, or it's counted as an unsuccessful attempt.

Anyway, the tunnel/mimic behaviour dates back to JtRH, so that's probably unchangeable. Elemental Showcase 5.0 (as I'm aware of the only hold so far that uses this trick) is also published by now, so I guess changing the temporal clone/tunnel behaviour has also become more difficult (apart from that it was intentional, anyway).

Which means we'll probably have to live with that inconsistency and that tunnels are weird?

So yeah. I'm really sorry. :blush
02-15-2015 at 02:11 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts This architect's holds Quote Reply
Doom
Level: Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 3303
Registered: 07-05-2004
IP: Logged
 icon Re: Beethro/Temporal Clone Inconsistency (+1)  
...yeah I really don't like that ES5 room.

Anyhow, even if that interaction between tunnels and temporal clones is intentional, this hold design advice is still valid:
DiMono wrote:
7) Avoid exploiting quirks. Don't make rooms that depend on some game anomaly you discovered by accident. If you find one and just can't resist, include a helpful scroll.
I feel this behaviour is unintuitive enough that if you absolutely must make a puzzle around it, you should at least warn the players first (even if it means spoiling a lynchpin).

Here's a few supporting views from the contest comments:

Click here to view the secret text
02-15-2015 at 04:37 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Show all user's posts High Scores This architect's holds Quote Reply
Dischorran
Level: Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 3414
Registered: 09-10-2005
IP: Logged
 icon Re: Beethro/Temporal Clone Inconsistency (+1)  
I think the Elemental Showcase thing is still recent enough that we don't have to etch the behaviors it uses in stone.

____________________________
Click here to view the secret text
02-16-2015 at 04:10 AM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Show all user's posts High Scores This architect's holds Quote Reply
bomber50
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 872
Registered: 09-18-2006
IP: Logged
 icon Re: Beethro/Temporal Clone Inconsistency (+1)  
Tested in 5.0.2, and this issue appears to have been fixed. The move is wasted, and the clone continues on to the next move in its recording.
07-26-2015 at 06:14 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts This architect's holds Quote Reply
adS
Level: Master Delver
Avatar
Rank Points: 214
Registered: 05-02-2010
IP: Logged

File: Strange.demo (3.5 KB)
Downloaded 45 times.
License: Public Domain
 icon Re: Beethro/Temporal Clone Inconsistency (+1)  
In Time Clone Oddity #2 I hahve a very strange effect:

The clone "survives" forever.

See the attached demo.

Best wishes,

adS




____________________________
pauca sed matura
07-29-2015 at 10:43 AM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Show all user's posts Quote Reply
skell
Level: Legendary Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 3764
Registered: 12-28-2004
IP: Logged
 icon Re: Beethro/Temporal Clone Inconsistency (0)  
adS wrote:
In Time Clone Oddity #2 I hahve a very strange effect:

The clone "survives" forever.

That's intended. You block the exit of the tunnel that the projection is trying to use so it wastes that move (basically enters the tunnels and goes out the way it entered) and then it tries to do the next move which, in your demo's case, after a few waits, is going W. Which is blocked, thus the projection waits until the move will be available.

____________________________
My website
07-29-2015 at 06:51 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Visit Homepage Show all user's posts High Scores This architect's holds Quote Reply
hyperme
Level: Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 1173
Registered: 06-23-2006
IP: Logged
 icon Re: Beethro/Temporal Clone Inconsistency (+1)  
Confirming that Projections now consume blocked tunnel moves, and cannot tunnel into the player.

(Tested in 5.0.2.1004)

____________________________
[Insert witty comment here]
Qzvlkx?
08-13-2015 at 07:25 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts High Scores This architect's holds Quote Reply
New Topic New Poll Post Reply
Caravel Forum : DROD Boards : Bugs : Beethro/Temporal Clone Inconsistency
Surf To:


Forum Rules:
Can I post a new topic? No
Can I reply? No
Can I read? Yes
HTML Enabled? No
UBBC Enabled? Yes
Words Filter Enable? No

Contact Us | CaravelGames.com

Powered by: tForum tForumHacks Edition b0.98.8
Originally created by Toan Huynh (Copyright © 2000)
Enhanced by the tForumHacks team and the Caravel team.