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8.5/10 (54 votes)
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Author Name:Ghogg
Submitted By:jdyer
Hold Name:A Quiet Place
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Number of Levels:11
Number of Rooms:97
Number of Monsters:1726
Version:DROD: Architect's Edition
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Hold Karma:12 (+12 / -0)
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File: A Quiet Place.hold (56.1 KB)
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icon A Quiet Place  
Long have I dreamt of a quiet place, away from the worries and the troubles.

---

A Quiet Place is the product of 10 months of work and extensive testing. I would like to profusely thank: buzzard, Doom, inky, Schik, sebhaque, Sim, Stefan, Tablesaw, and The Red Hawk.
10-03-2004 at 06:26 AM
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eytanz
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I tried it on two seperate DROD installations, and both told me the file is corrupted (I tried re-downloading, it didn't help).

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10-03-2004 at 06:33 AM
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jdyer
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All fixed. Fixing the corruption ended up breaking all the stairs so I had to refix all of those too and test them.

[Edited by jdyer at Local Time:10-03-2004 at 07:50 AM]
10-03-2004 at 06:45 AM
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agaricus5
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This is a nice hold so far - I really like the ingenious handicap mechanisms for some of the rooms.

However, in L4 1E, there is a trivial solution.

Click here to view the secret text


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10-03-2004 at 03:53 PM
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jdyer
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agaricus5 wrote:
However, in L4 1E, there is a trivial solution.

Click here to view the secret text
Since the intent here is obvious I will lay low and see if any other problems come up before fixing this.
10-03-2004 at 04:55 PM
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Brickman
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I'm having trouble with l3 1s1w. I can't figure out where to put the mimic at start so that he can do more than one hit (I'm guessing its not supposed to start with the switch?).
10-04-2004 at 11:06 PM
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agaricus5
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It is to do with the switch going first.

Click here to view the secret text


[Edited by mrimer at Local Time:10-05-2004 at 12:14 AM]

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10-05-2004 at 12:02 AM
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Brickman
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Once I was able to get past the uncertainty of whether I had the right starting point, the room took about 10 mins. Oh and I forgot to say how fun your hold is and how much I enjoy combat puzzles (which most people have trouble making, ut you have a knack for it).
10-05-2004 at 01:41 AM
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While I didn't test this a whole lot near the end (Urmm.... sorry 'bout that :blush), I did play it through a couple times in it's earlier stages. I must say, it's an excellent hold. :thumbsup

I agree completely with agaricus - the restricted movement tricks are impressive, and make for some very interesting gameplay.

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10-05-2004 at 04:02 AM
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icon Re: A Quiet Place (+1)  
In Second Level 1S 1E, I finished with two potions to spare.
Is this an intended solution?

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10-15-2004 at 03:22 PM
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Atch
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Yes, five is certainly more invisibility potions than you need, but I only had one to spare - one of the pair in the SE - anyone do it with two?
10-15-2004 at 03:35 PM
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I had the NE potion and one of the SE pair left over - I'll put up my demo if you like.

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10-15-2004 at 03:41 PM
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icon Re: A Quiet Place (+2)  
masonjason wrote:
I had the NE potion and one of the SE pair left over - I'll put up my demo if you like.
Yes, please do mj, it would be interesting to see how to do it more efficiently - I have attached mine for comparison.
10-15-2004 at 04:54 PM
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icon Re: A Quiet Place (+2)  
Here you go. It seems I just managed to save a potion on the very last part where you used two.

[Edited by masonjason at Local Time:10-15-2004 at 05:37 PM]

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10-15-2004 at 05:35 PM
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jdyer
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masonjason wrote:
Here you go. It seems I just managed to save a potion on the very last part where you used two.

These solutions are just fine. There's at least one more way to do the first part and there's at least one more way to do the second part.
10-15-2004 at 10:28 PM
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agaricus5
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Well, I'm just a few rooms short of finishing, and from looking at the room images of the rooms left, I would guess my comments still apply.

As an overall hold, this is a great piece of architecture, which I can tell has had a tremendous amount of work put into it.

However, I do have a comment to make about its overall choice of theme, which I think detracts from the hold's quality.

Click here to view the secret text


So, as an overall observation, this hold is a very good hold, very challenging, full of clever and interesting ideas, well thought out and playtested. However, it's weakpoint in my opinion is the fact that a lot of the challenge comes mostly from rooms with very specific solutions.

Still, I enjoyed playing this very much.

You did a great job!

[Edited by agaricus5 at Local Time:10-27-2004 at 02:04 PM]

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10-27-2004 at 02:03 PM
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Tim
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agaricus5 wrote:
So, as an overall observation, this hold is a very good hold, very challenging, full of clever and interesting ideas, well thought out and playtested. However, it's weakpoint in my opinion is the fact that a lot of the challenge comes mostly from rooms with very specific solutions.
I have not yet finished this hold, but I absolutely do not agree with agaricus' comment on this. There is nothing wrong with very specific solutions for lots of rooms in a hold, as long as it is distributed evenly across a hold. Besides, I do not need to finish any hold in one session.

I find this "weakpoint" actually the strength of this hold, as every correct step has immediate feedback to it (by not being killed immediately).

Of course, I do find agaricus' comment a very well-written comment, but I would rather use this same comment on Bavato's Dungeon. (Sorry, Wesley. :))

-- Tim

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10-27-2004 at 10:42 PM
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agaricus5
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Tim wrote:
I have not yet finished this hold, but I absolutely do not agree with agaricus' comment on this. There is nothing wrong with very specific solutions for lots of rooms in a hold, as long as it is distributed evenly across a hold. Besides, I do not need to finish any hold in one session.

I said it's fine in moderation. What I did say was that I thought this hold relied on it a bit too much as a major theme.
On counting, this is the composition of specific solution rooms (from my own opinion)...

Click here to view the secret text


I find this "weakpoint" actually the strength of this hold, as every correct step has immediate feedback to it (by not being killed immediately).

The problem is that not every step that doesn't kill you is actually correct. What I find annoying is to work out a nearly complete solution of about 30-40 moves, and then discover it's completely wrong and then have to start from scratch all over again. There are 11 different moves you can make, per move, and although some will appear obviously wrong, there will still be a huge number of combinations to decide from. I'm no supercomputer, so I cannot sit there and work out exactly what will happen after each move. I have to try a likely starter, and then see if it actually works.

Of course, I do find agaricus' comment a very well-written comment, but I would rather use this same comment on Bavato's Dungeon. (Sorry, Wesley. :))

Opinions differ, I suppose. I, however, know I'm terrible at making rooms like this that require such specific solutions, so I know there are much fewer of those types of rooms in the hold. I therefore disagree with your comment. :)

Edit: Why am I obsessed tonight with the word "specific"?

[Edited by agaricus5 at Local Time:10-28-2004 at 12:44 AM]

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10-28-2004 at 12:37 AM
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jdyer
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agaricus5 wrote:
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Yes, it's a theme. You don't need to count 'em. ;) (Although some rooms you picked as having specific solutions do have multiple ones.) It is linked to the plot, although I tried not to make the connection too explicit.

When I do a different hold, it will have a different theme, or themes.
10-28-2004 at 02:44 AM
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agaricus5
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Ah, and I also forgot to mention that I see your hold is more sinister than it first appears.

Click here to view the secret text


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10-28-2004 at 10:18 AM
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Atch
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Finished last week I found A Quiet Place to be the most innovative hold since The Fool’s Errand and have rated it a 9. Some of the innovations, restrictions on movement say, were perhaps a bit overused but there was a thematic reason, later revealed, for making up the number of rooms on certain levels and I am certainly in no position to demand more variation from Architects.

A preponderance of rooms with specific solutions?

Well, if there are, I didn’t notice and will happily replay most rooms in this hold many times in the future – didn’t eytanz say that he constantly replays Dugan’s three tar mother room as a form of therapy?

My favourite room had possibly the most specific solution: Level 4: 1S, 2W. You could rest indefinitely with the invisibility potion in the middle and I took a slight detour to take in the southernmost checkpoint but how many solvers did it in my recorded 182 moves? I left directly with no triumphal sword twirling at the exit. The inspiration for this room was I imagine Dugan’s infamous snake timer but might I suggest on agaricus’s behalf – he would be too modest to say anything himself – that its development owes a debt to Bavato’s Level 5: 2S, 2E or is this just a coincidence?

A Quite Place’s Level Thirteen, the eponymous Level 7, was a brilliant idea far better than a tedious maze. However, as a staunch fan of the toughest cryptic crosswords (long live The Listener!), I thought that the level was let down by the three clues to cutting through the tar – they were far too vague or allusive – and I still don’t know the solution to the first although have since read the scroll in the Editor. I would have preferred more conventional cryptic clues such as:
Click here to view the secret text

The mostly impossible rooms in Not the first Level and Limbo were a delight with the second transit of Limbo’s: 1N, 2E being particularly exacting and enjoyable. For a classic of this genre see Moria’s: Bridge of Khazzaddum in Architecture.

I am no fan of most orb puzzles being of the floundering around trial and error school so was glad to see that one in Deleted Scenes. Without giving anything away, jdyer was crafty in not making Level 5’s: 2N, 1E the full orb puzzle it might have been in which case there are dozens of solutions available on the Net.
jdyer wrote:
When I do a different hold, it will have a different theme, or themes.
I can't wait - let's hope it's soon!
10-28-2004 at 01:14 PM
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Atch wrote:
My favourite room had possibly the most specific solution: Level 4: 1S, 2W. You could rest indefinitely with the invisibility potion in the middle and I took a slight detour to take in the southernmost checkpoint but how many solvers did it in my recorded 182 moves? I left directly with no triumphal sword twirling at the exit.
I did it in 177 moves (had to wait for the serpent for about 5 moves). :P
A Quite Place’s Level Thirteen, the eponymous Level 7, was a brilliant idea far better than a tedious maze. However, as a staunch fan of the toughest cryptic crosswords (long live The Listener!), I thought that the level was let down by the three clues to cutting through the tar – they were far too vague or allusive – and I still don’t know the solution to the first although have since read the scroll in the Editor.
I've only figured out the third one, but I figured out what to do without the clues.
Without giving anything away, jdyer was crafty in not making Level 5’s: 2N, 1E the full orb puzzle it might have been in which case there are dozens of solutions available on the Net.
Well that didn't stop me from using my solver for this type of puzzle I programmed a few years ago... (I've got a generic orb-puzzle solver as well, which managed to find a "trivial" solution to A Quiet Place: 2W (did I mention that I dislike orb-puzzles? :)))
jdyer wrote:
When I do a different hold, it will have a different theme, or themes.
I can't wait - let's hope it's soon!
Yes, let's! :thumbsup

[Edited by Stefan at Local Time:10-28-2004 at 03:54 PM]

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10-28-2004 at 03:18 PM
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agaricus5
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Atch wrote:
A preponderance of rooms with specific solutions?

Well, if there are, I didn’t notice and will happily replay most rooms in this hold many times in the future – didn’t eytanz say that he constantly replays Dugan’s three tar mother room as a form of therapy?

I'm not saying that the rooms are not re-playable, but I would think that once a specific room has been completed, its challenge also goes with it, since it's not too difficult to memorise a short 20-50 move sequence once you've already done it.

My favourite room had possibly the most specific solution: Level 4: 1S, 2W. You could rest indefinitely with the invisibility potion in the middle and I took a slight detour to take in the southernmost checkpoint but how many solvers did it in my recorded 182 moves? I left directly with no triumphal sword twirling at the exit.

I guess you obviously like specific solution rooms. When I look at a room for the first 2 or 3 times, I don't see the room's exact dynamics in a small location; I don't see the exact way a particular monster will move, or can predict far enough ahead to see which monster will do what in the next 10 moves. The approach I take is to look at the monsters present and from there make a general decision about in which order to tackle a group of monsters, but not the exact sequence. This is why I'm bad at specific rooms, since I understand monsters well in a general context, but when they are put into a highly constrained one, I don't have the brain capacity to work out what will happen in a particular sequence of moves.

In reference to your comment about specifity, I didn't think this room was particularly specific, because although there were sections in which you needed to make some particular moves, in others, like the goblin section, you had some freedom to manipulate them how you wanted. I myself finished with a few moves to spare, so I had to wait for the serpent to finish killing itself. :)

The inspiration for this room was I imagine Dugan’s infamous snake timer but might I suggest on agaricus’s behalf – he would be too modest to say anything himself – that its development owes a debt to Bavato’s Level 5: 2S, 2E or is this just a coincidence?

Not speaking in any way for the hold designer, but from my point of view, I would guess that it is probably coincidental. If it were based on anything in Bavato's Dungeon, then L13 1S 5E most closely resembles it in the style of timer used. The usage of a serpent as a timer with orbs is perhaps more like L7 1N 2W in the last Alpha testing edition, but as a concept, it appears to be rather unique, since it requires a movement handicap mechanism to work.

The mostly impossible rooms in Not the first Level and Limbo were a delight with the second transit of Limbo’s: 1N, 2E being particularly exacting and enjoyable. For a classic of this genre see Moria’s: Bridge of Khazzaddum in Architecture.

The chase rooms in L6/8 were a lot of fun, I agree, but again, they did rely on specific solutions to be able to pass them, just like the (final?) room in "Moria".

I didn't, however, like L8 2N 2E, since it is solvable, but after all the effort put into it, its exit is...

Click here to view the secret text


It did, however, make L8 1N 1E trivial when I visited it afterwards.

Without giving anything away, jdyer was crafty in not making Level 5’s: 2N, 1E the full orb puzzle it might have been in which case there are dozens of solutions available on the Net.

I would say that it was made a bit harder with some of the puzzle removed, since some positions had limited approaches and exits, so making sure you had to enter those at particular times, or else you would end up with unreachable areas. Like in "The Palace of Puzzles", it was a refreshing break from the other rooms, since although the order in which you did things in the room was specific, you were not move-restricted, like in some previous rooms.

jdyer wrote:
When I do a different hold, it will have a different theme, or themes.
I can't wait - let's hope it's soon!

I can't believe I forgot to say that in my last analysis post, so thanks for reminding me, Atch.

My sentiments exactly. I'm looking forward to seeing more of your holds in the future!

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10-28-2004 at 03:37 PM
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agaricus5 wrote:
However, in L4 1E, there is a trivial solution.

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Another trivial solution in the same room.

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A cleverly placed force arrow would propably fix it.
10-28-2004 at 04:18 PM
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Stefan wrote:
Atch wrote:
My favourite room had possibly the most specific solution: Level 4: 1S, 2W. You could rest indefinitely with the invisibility potion in the middle and I took a slight detour to take in the southernmost checkpoint but how many solvers did it in my recorded 182 moves? I left directly with no triumphal sword twirling at the exit.
I did it in 177 moves (had to wait for the serpent for about 5 moves). :P
My record : 165 Moves :P :P
10-28-2004 at 05:09 PM
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Stefan
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Doom wrote:
My record : 165 Moves :P :P
Is that with or without mimic placement moves? Mine's with. Without would be 158 (or 159, depending on if you count the move you make when exiting).

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10-28-2004 at 05:36 PM
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Stefan wrote:
Doom wrote:
My record : 165 Moves :P :P
Is that with or without mimic placement moves? Mine's with. Without would be 158 (or 159, depending on if you count the move you make when exiting).
It's with mimic placement moves. It's something 147 without them.
10-28-2004 at 05:41 PM
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Ok, got it (or actually I got 164 moves). Very clever!

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10-28-2004 at 05:57 PM
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agaricus5 wrote:
The approach I take is to look at the monsters present and from there make a general decision about in which order to tackle a group of monsters, but not the exact sequence.

This discussion is a fascinating take on puzzle psychology.

Generally speaking with this sort of room, I don't visualize specific movements, but look for what configuration of monsters I should be aiming at (look at my response in Hints and Solutions regarding L5 2E1S for an example).

{stuff about Level 4: 1S, 2W}

The inspiration for this room was so bizarre I'm going to explain in secret quotes:

Click here to view the secret text


If it were based on anything in Bavato's Dungeon, then L13 1S 5E most closely resembles it in the style of timer used.

I never played Bavuto's until the final version, at which point A Quiet Place was essentially finished.

I didn't, however, like L8 2N 2E, since
Click here to view the secret text

Ack ack ack ack ack. I thought I caught 'em all. The playtesters certainly thought so. Recording?
10-28-2004 at 11:37 PM
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jdyer wrote:
agaricus5 wrote:
The approach I take is to look at the monsters present and from there make a general decision about in which order to tackle a group of monsters, but not the exact sequence.

This discussion is a fascinating take on puzzle psychology.

Generally speaking with this sort of room, I don't visualize specific movements, but look for what configuration of monsters I should be aiming at (look at my response in Hints and Solutions regarding L5 2E1S for an example).

I thought so. I suppose different people look at different levels of specifity when figuring out a puzzle.

I didn't, however, like L8 2N 2E, since
Click here to view the secret text

Ack ack ack ack ack. I thought I caught 'em all. The playtesters certainly thought so. Recording?

Attached. You can solve this in a similar way to 1N 1E. If it were impossible, like you intended, then this would be highly unfair. Imagine spending 2 hours on the room, thinking it's solvable because of the green doors and previous room themes, and then having to find out that in fact it's impossible.

It would be highly frustrating, since it's not obvious.

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