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Red-XIII
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icon Pushing gentryii into pits (0)  
Hi guys, I'd like to know if this is intended since it's a bit non intuitive.
If I push a gentryii (with chain) with a stick into a pit it clearly doesn't fall since the chain is still on the floor and that's ok, but if there is only the gentryii's head and no chain it still doesn't fall. It seems strange since Beethro pushes only the head (which occupies only one tile) so he should be able to push it into the pit/water/shallow water.

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[Last edited by Red-XIII at 09-27-2014 12:19 PM]
09-27-2014 at 12:17 PM
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Red-XIII
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icon Re: Pushing gentryii into pits (0)  
Hello.
Sorry for bumping this, but now that Skell proposed TSS 5.0.2 I'd like to know if that behaviour is intended.

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01-23-2015 at 09:59 AM
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skell
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icon Re: Pushing gentryii into pits (0)  
There are more problematic interactions to be honest. Below are all I can think of with my proposed solutions, but please note that these are only my opinions - I don't yet know how we will fix'em :).

- Pushing Gentryii into pit - Gentryii and the chain die
- Pushing Gentryii into deep water - Gentryii and the chain die
- Pushing Gentryii into shallow water - Stepping stone is formed and the chain is removed

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01-23-2015 at 11:55 AM
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Nuntar
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icon Re: Pushing gentryii into pits (0)  
During beta-testing, when we discussed the gentryii/oremite interaction, TFMurphy mentioned this:

quote:
I note another 'interaction' in that while Gentryii heads can be pushed around, they cannot be pushed over the edge of pits. I'm not sure if we discussed this interaction during development, but after giving that some thought, I think I'm fine with the current state -- it would seem too easy to get rid of Gentryii if you could just knock the head into a pit. (You can still drop a bridge from under them, but that requires a lot more work and specific architecture.)


I would agree with this, but I can see the rationale for making 1-tile gentryii an exception. I'm happy with it going either way on that.

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01-23-2015 at 02:46 PM
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Moo
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icon Re: Pushing gentryii into pits (0)  
That makes it sound like it shouldn't be possible to push them into the pit in the first place. I did a little test, and was unable to use a staff to push a Gentryii head (with or without chain) into a pit. I was also unable to push it into shallow or deep water. So as far as I can see, these interactions aren't a problem.
The question is, how was Red-XIII able to push them onto pits?
01-23-2015 at 02:57 PM
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skell
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icon Re: Pushing gentryii into pits (0)  
I don't think he ever pushed Gentryii into pit, just a weird phrasing.

Anyhow if TFM has decided to make them unkillable by push-drop and it was accepted during development (I kinda now recognize that quote) then let's leave it as is, although it seems to be yet another exception to remember, because that's the only pushable but undroppable and unsinkable monster as far as I can tell.

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[Last edited by skell at 01-23-2015 03:32 PM]
01-23-2015 at 03:32 PM
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Red-XIII
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icon Re: Pushing gentryii into pits (0)  
quote:
Moo wrote:
That makes it sound like it shouldn't be possible to push them into the pit in the first place. I did a little test, and was unable to use a staff to push a Gentryii head (with or without chain) into a pit. I was also unable to push it into shallow or deep water. So as far as I can see, these interactions aren't a problem.
The question is, how was Red-XIII able to push them onto pits?


Uhm, I'm afraid you misunderstood me, I'm NOT able to push a single tile gentryii into the pit, and this, IMO, is not intuitive.

I agree with TFMurphy about not being able to push the gentryii with all the chain into the pit, but, as Nuntar said and I'll repeat, if a gentryii has no chain, it's not heavy so it's rationale that I should be able to push it into the pit.

I also agree that if the gentryii is pushed into shallow water it'll form stepping stone.
I also think that there would be more puzzle potential with this feature.

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[Last edited by Red-XIII at 01-23-2015 03:40 PM]
01-23-2015 at 03:38 PM
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skell
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icon Re: Pushing gentryii into pits (+1)  
quote:
Red-XIII wrote:
I agree with TFMurphy about not being able to push the gentryii with all the chain into the pit, but, as Nuntar said and I'll repeat, if a gentryii has no chain, it's not heavy so it's rationale that I should be able to push it into the pit.

I'd say if you are able to push something on the floor, regardless of all the friction, then pushing it off the edge of a pit should be even less problematic.

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01-23-2015 at 03:41 PM
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disoriented
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icon Re: Pushing gentryii into pits (0)  
I think changing this behavior at this point would break too many rooms.

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01-23-2015 at 05:28 PM
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skell
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icon Re: Pushing gentryii into pits (0)  
Eh, you are probably right with this one

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01-23-2015 at 07:02 PM
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karlpopper
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icon Re: Pushing gentryii into pits (0)  
Remember that room in TSS with the tuning fork?

You could drop the nasty things down pits there couldn't you? Chains and all, IIRC.

Just by magicking the floor away .... hahaha.

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01-23-2015 at 07:25 PM
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Dragon Fogel
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icon Re: Pushing gentryii into pits (0)  
After messing around a bit in the editor, it looks to me like the unusual rule here is that gentryii can be pushed at all.

Rock giants and serpents can't be pushed, into pits or not. You also can't move platforms with one of these monsters on it. The same is true of gentryii chains. But gentryii heads are pushable, whether chained or not; and yet the heads, attached or not, otherwise exhibit the behavior of "heavy" monsters.

So basically, gentryii have the properties of "heavy" monsters whether they take up one tile or more, except that their heads can be pushed. But they can't be pushed into pits. This is weird and it's not entirely obvious what parts of it should be changed (either ideally or practically).
01-23-2015 at 07:49 PM
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bomber50
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icon Re: Pushing gentryii into pits (+1)  
It seems like gentryii can now be pushed into pits, water, and shallow water. Pushing them onto shallow water is especially weird, since they won't step on it themselves normally.

Probably an unintended change, since I don't remember, and can't find, anywhere it was said to be changed.

Using 5.1.0.6501.
03-13-2016 at 02:15 AM
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Keiya
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icon Re: Pushing gentryii into pits (0)  
And they act WEIRD in shallow water. It seems like you can't push them horizontally such that the chain will go into it, but you *can* push vertically or diagonally.

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03-13-2016 at 02:38 AM
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skell
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icon Re: Pushing gentryii into pits (+5)  
Fixed this issue. should be available in the next release. Mike, I pushed it directly into DROD_Dev branch without a PR but the change was superbly minimal.

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03-13-2016 at 07:21 PM
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mrimer
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icon Re: Pushing gentryii into pits (0)  
quote:
skell wrote:
Fixed this issue. should be available in the next release. Mike, I pushed it directly into DROD_Dev branch without a PR but the change was superbly minimal.
That's fine. Thank you! Looks like I introduced a regression. This fix should be incorporated with demo verification.

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[Last edited by mrimer at 03-13-2016 09:55 PM]
03-13-2016 at 09:55 PM
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skell
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icon Re: Pushing gentryii into pits (0)  
Mike, could you prepare a build so that people can test and verify that the fix is indeed correct?

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03-13-2016 at 10:06 PM
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mrimer
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Sure. Going on the 5.1 patch thread now.

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[Last edited by mrimer at 07-04-2016 09:18 PM]
03-14-2016 at 01:06 AM
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Dragon Fogel
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icon Re: Pushing gentryii into pits (+1)  
Confirmed, in 5.1.0.6505 pushing a gentryii into a pit, water, or shallow water tile only stuns it. Tested with chainless gentryii, chained gentryii stuck to a wall, and free-moving chained gentryii.

Also double-checked that the fix didn't somehow revert pushing gentryii into weapons (since I'm guessing that was what broke it). Fortunately, it didn't; gentryii can still be pushed into all weapons except cabers.
03-14-2016 at 02:06 AM
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