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Caravel Forum : Caravel Boards : General : Unlimited undo (A multiple question poll)
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Have you tried the unlimited undo feature?
Y
N
Do you use it?
Y
N
How many moves can you undo?
1 (as before)
more that 3
more than 10
0
If you do not use it, why?
It is not really usefull
It is dishonourable
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adS
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icon Unlimited undo (0)  
I wonder if (m)any players use the unlimited undo feature.

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06-29-2014 at 03:55 PM
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Tuttle
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Absolutely. I never got involved in the arguments way back when and didn't even really think about how it would change things, but there's no way I would go back now that I've been using it.

I think the biggest difference is I spend more time thinking about what I want to do in a room and less time fussing about the detailed implementation. I can just jump in and try a few ways to get that Aumtlich where it belongs without having to stop and plan 10 moves in advance, and that (to me at least) makes it more fun. Less friction, less frustration.

I don't really optimise except for entrance rooms that never got marked unscoreable, so it doesn't affect my experience in that sense.

[Last edited by Tuttle at 06-29-2014 04:08 PM]
06-29-2014 at 04:07 PM
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Tamsk
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icon Re: Unlimited undo (+1)  
I notice that 2-3 move undo isn't covered by this poll's options. (I'm using 2: one move for mistake correction, then one move for fat-finger insurance.)
06-29-2014 at 04:10 PM
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robin
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quote:
Tuttle wrote:
Absolutely. I never got involved in the arguments way back when and didn't even really think about how it would change things, but there's no way I would go back now that I've been using it.

I think the biggest difference is I spend more time thinking about what I want to do in a room and less time fussing about the detailed implementation. I can just jump in and try a few ways to get that Aumtlich where it belongs without having to stop and plan 10 moves in advance, and that (to me at least) makes it more fun. Less friction, less frustration.

I don't really optimise except for entrance rooms that never got marked unscoreable, so it doesn't affect my experience in that sense.


That's exactly how I feel!!
I love it!!

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06-29-2014 at 04:14 PM
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bwross
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Yeah, the poll's flawed... I can't really answer it.
06-29-2014 at 04:15 PM
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Kwerulous
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I did not actually expect to, but I currently do use unlimited undo, and don't think this is going to change.

I have experienced so far that unlimited undo makes DROD easier to play, not easier to solve.
06-29-2014 at 04:18 PM
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Nuntar
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The last question also leaves out many other possible reasons. I use only single undo, just because that suits my style of DROD-playing; I prefer to know what I'm doing before I do it, and have the undo option available in case I hit the wrong key by mistake. Even for things like aumtlich manipulation -- and I certainly don't plan ten moves in advance -- I find that (if a room is decently checkpointed) playing with single undo helps me to concentrate on the individual moves so that I learn the techniques as I'm going along.

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06-29-2014 at 04:18 PM
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adS
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icon Re: Unlimited undo (0)  
quote:
bwross wrote:
Yeah, the poll's flawed... I can't really answer it.


I did not expect that people use 2 move undo - sorry.

I assume it can't be changed.

adS

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06-29-2014 at 04:19 PM
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lordatog
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My reasoning for not using UU doesn't fall under either option. I see nothing dishonorable about it, and it would clearly be useful - but I still don't use it, because I like being forced to think a few moves ahead, and to go out of my way for a checkpoint every now and then. Keeps me on my toes, and having to redo a minute or two after failing is punishment enough to give me motivation, but not to seriously frustrate. If I get fed up with the checkpoint positioning in a room I'll turn it on, but that hasn't happened yet.
06-29-2014 at 05:09 PM
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bwross
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quote:
Kwerulous wrote:
I have experienced so far that unlimited undo makes DROD easier to play, not easier to solve.


Yep, that's the effect I said UU has, and it shows in TSS.

Expecting UU to make things easier is a fallacy... it's like assuming that a horde room is going to be easier because it has a speed potion. The existence of the speed potion means that that much more monsters need to be thrown at the player to maintain the level of tension. Slack will always be taken up. So some old rooms do get belittled (ones that were straight forward on solving, and had their tension in the execution), but with new rooms going forward (and with TSS because it's part of the FWOTingness), you can expect things to evolve to compensate... the fact that more players can get through tricky execution and manipulation bits with less frustration with UU means that more of that can be combined with more tricky problem solving and the trademark of TSS... the Just One More Thing.

quote:
lordatog wrote: My reasoning for not using UU doesn't fall under either option. I see nothing dishonorable about it, and it would clearly be useful - but I still don't use it, because I like being forced to think a few moves ahead, and to go out of my way for a checkpoint every now and then. Keeps me on my toes, and having to redo a minute or two after failing is punishment enough to give me motivation, but not to seriously frustrate. If I get fed up with the checkpoint positioning in a room I'll turn it on, but that hasn't happened yet.


Pretty much my thinking.

And I did give in to the demoness UU once. It was late, I was tired, and I had one more room on the level, and had a checkpoint in a place I didn't see a reason to go (and didn't have to... in fact, all it would do it make my position worse so using it would mean having to fix my position every time). I was thinking, I'll just UU to make up for not having a checkpoint and get through these WWs so I can have a fresh level with multiple rooms to choose from when I get time to play tomorrow. So I made a deal with the demoness... I assumed the payment would be in potential lost knowledge, which I could easily regain later. But I was wrong... so very, very wrong. The demoness apparently knew my hidden desires and decided to take as payment throwing me into a linear gauntlet for the next day. She offered temptations along the way, but I held strong. When it seemed she had released me at the end of that day when I was tired again and I finally had a choice of rooms, she tried one last time to hold me with a room that seemed perfect for UU... but I was all, "You will not catch me again evil demoness!" So you see, it's not about dishonour, it's about not making faustian deals with the forces of darkness. :)
06-29-2014 at 05:40 PM
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karlpopper
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icon Re: Unlimited undo (+1)  
I originally took the "it is dishonorable" view.

However, when guiding the fluff through the maze with Halph,
I realized that having ten or so moves would really help.

Then I was playing with something where a whole spawn cycle
of undo let me more freely experiment .....

Then I thought "Well, I'll try unlimited".

Not sure yet whether I'll turn it off: I forget about it
most of the time.

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06-29-2014 at 05:41 PM
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skell
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No, just...

Can't you keep the UU discussion to a single thread please? Then again I guess the reason for this thread to be created was exactly that. So I guess I'll just keep myself out of this thread :rolleyes.

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06-29-2014 at 07:54 PM
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bwross
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quote:
[Post Deleted] Nuntar wrote:
quote:
bwross wrote: Yep, that's the effect I said UU has, and it shows in TSS.

I really don't think what you're seeing has much to do with UU.


Yes, it's not entirely about UU... I took in consideration the natural inflation over time. But there are lots of little things I've noticed that suggest an influence from having UU. Things like puzzles where you need to manipulate things before starting, but don't have a good checkpoint to save that (AL:1N1E doesn't have a checkpoint at all, it's only a few moves, but I had to do it a couple times).

The thing is that TSS is, as Trickster posted, under UU, it's still difficult and requires thought... which is to be expected. It was developed for an environment with UU. It would be surprising if it wasn't. Any slack UU creates will be taken up, because the public comfort level of tension for puzzles is still below the level of complexity that could have been done (which has a market, but it's not appropriate for a main line game, which must appeal widely). If you don't take up that slack, then the game would be less engaging that previous holds... but you don't have to worry about doing that, because it happens naturally, because architects are going to try to design more engaging holds (which is where the natural inflation comes from).

quote:

I can speak only for myself, not all architects, but I build rooms that I hope players will enjoy. Tricky execution rooms becoming more fun and less frustrating makes me more inclined to build rooms like that, not less.


Yes, as I said "tricky" execution rooms certainly work. And that UU can make them more fun for more people means that they can be used more often... either made particularly tricky by themselves or just combined with other things. That isn't a bad thing. And I do expect it to happen more. But those aren't the old rooms that get belittled, they're capable of thriving in the new environment and evolving to new levels (which is good).

Take a room like TCB Pirates Lair 4N1W, and ignore the red herring potion (because that only works once, and the room is quite replayable). The room is straight forward, and the execution isn't particularly tricky. But it is fun and relaxing... the tension comes from getting yourself charging around doing basic tactical play against a large horde and occasionally getting caught up in a tight spot and trying to work your way out of it. With UU, you're never really caught, and never have much at stake (it doesn't take many undoes to get out of any problem in that room, other than the red herring). The simplicity of the room makes it like poker... it's not that interesting without stakes. You can have a little fun playing for matchsticks, but it's a much diminished game that way.

As for red herrings (because I said to ignore it before, I should cover it to be proper)... that room has it's right at the start, so no level of undo will help, you just restart. Red herrings that can cost you more will lose a bit of potency. But checkpoints already take a good chunk of that away (unless the red herring is the check point, or the room is very badly checkpointed), so it isn't much, but they also get belittled a bit there. I'd still like to see more of them... holds where everything in every room is important have the issue that that provides outside information. The occasional good red herring that needs to be eliminated reduces that assumption, and so they provide tension that way outside of lost stakes, and UU doesn't really affect that.

Note belittling doesn't mean that the room becomes bad, or boring, or anything like that... it means that it becomes somewhat less fun. And so people will enjoy them less, which will give you less reason to make that room, and more reason to tweak it something to add some fun back. That's the evolution I'm talking about... UU is a substantial change to game play, it definitiely will have subtle effects going forward, but they will certainly happen. But that's not an entirely bad or good thing, it's neutral. Evolution works like that... some old things might get lost, and the ones that survive either fit perfectly or can slightly change to fit (ie hiding stuff under tarstuff doesn't work so well with transparency available, but cutting tarstuff with the complication of stuff in it does still work, and because there's no need to explore under the tarstuff to figure out the layout, more complicated puzzles can be made in that form).

quote:
For example, in my beginners' hold Bubble Wrap, Eighth Level 2S1E contains two force arrow mazes with queens on the outside sending roaches in, and a queen timer. It's pure execution, and not too difficult. But there's also an achievement, "Slow Start, Fast Finish", if you don't enter the second maze until turn 150 or later, and still complete the room. Without UU in the editor, I wouldn't have discovered this was possible. Without UU in the game, I would have felt much more guilty about inflicting it on players.


Which is exactly what I'm talking about. UU in game play changes the environment, giving you more room to apply tension you wouldn't otherwise. That's all I've been saying here.
06-29-2014 at 08:18 PM
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mrimer
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quote:
bwross wrote:
So you see, it's not about dishonour, it's about not making faustian deals with the forces of darkness. :)
Mwa, ha, ha!

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06-29-2014 at 11:07 PM
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quote:
adS wrote:
I wonder if (m)any players use the unlimited undo feature.


. . . there's unlimited undo?

where? how? :unsure

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06-30-2014 at 10:41 AM
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horseofgenius
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With 1 move undo, I often found myself wanting an extra undo. For TSS, I set it to 2 moves, and I've not had that problem. I mainly use it to correct for clumsy fingers, but I like having to take some responsibility for the consequences of the moves I make.
06-30-2014 at 10:43 AM
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quote:
Elfstone wrote:
quote:
adS wrote:
I wonder if (m)any players use the unlimited undo feature.


. . . there's unlimited undo?

where? how? :unsure


Change Setting > Commands

From there you can select from several amounts of undoes, including unlimited.

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06-30-2014 at 10:49 AM
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robin
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I think the poll says it all!

[stamp]aproved[/stamp] :P :thumbsup

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[Last edited by robin at 06-30-2014 12:20 PM]
06-30-2014 at 12:20 PM
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azb
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Wherever I go, I bring Unlimited Undo. I do not like being forced to restart a room that took me 30 minutes to partially complete before I died. A major example of a room that's very, very, very, etc. tedious without UU is KDD: Eighth Level, "three tar mothers" room. I end up getting SO close to one of the mothers, and BAM! A tar baby jumps on me, back to square one if I forgot the checkpoint.

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07-06-2014 at 10:22 AM
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Elfstone
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quote:
azb wrote:
... I end up getting SO close to one of the mothers, and BAM! A tar baby jumps on me, back to square one if I forgot the checkpoint.

- which wouldn't happen, of course, if the save squares were placed correctly. I know that I must occasionally sound like a record stuck in the groove, but appropriate placement of save squares by the architect is crucial - and unfortunately not always apparent. :~(

Edit: - it just dawned on me that most of you are sooooo young that you may not have much of a clue what a record is, far less that it had grooves in which one could get stuck. THIS may help. ;)

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[Last edited by Elfstone at 07-06-2014 03:35 PM]
07-06-2014 at 03:32 PM
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Kids today. Back in my day we had to beat the three tar mother room with no undo and no checkpoints. One mistake and we had to start all over. And we liked it.
07-06-2014 at 07:33 PM
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Fang
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I remember those rooms.

Watching them.

In Pearls' LP. Then deciding to not touch them, myself. Maybe with UU now I will.

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07-06-2014 at 07:44 PM
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bwross
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quote:
karlpopper wrote:
Then I thought "Well, I'll try unlimited".

Not sure yet whether I'll turn it off: I forget about it
most of the time.


Yep, you get a free taste and move on to thinking I can handle having it on and using it occasionally, and eventually you find yourself having to have UU to play normally at all. :)

I forget who it was that said they were making levels in the editor before 5.0 to have UU, and also pointed out that they tried AE and gave up because it was too painful without undo. I see that "It's crack that can rot your skills" isn't on the list, because I'd rather keep my skills up so that I'm never that bad off.

quote:
Fang wrote: I remember those rooms.

Watching them.

In Pearls' LP. Then deciding to not touch them, myself. Maybe with UU now I will.



Why? Really? My advice for KDD is simple. Beginners shouldn't play it... the rooms don't represent anything in the way of puzzles in TSS or the FWOT. They're old fashioned. Playing puzzles you won't see much of and using UU to get through them with frustration just removes what little can be gotten from things like the 3TMR.

Which brings in my thoughts for experienced players. There are only two reasons for them to play it: the original experience (graphics, music, rules and limitations, and the AE ending), which forgoes using UU.

The other is to sharpen your saw... as mentioned above, there's nothing to things like the 3TMR in the way of a puzzle to solve, the experience is in tactical execution. For a beginner it's about learning how to intuitively spot where the tar will grow and babies will form. For an experienced player, all you can get is to clean up your execution (ie sharpen your saw). Using UU would be like trying to sharpen with a block of talc. Even a single level of undo allows you to get away with a lot, but I didn't miss it in my recent play though as much as I missed the battle key and the on screen clock (this is what cost me a good section of 3TMR progress)... but that single level had still introduced tactical flaws, that only being forced to zero undo revealed (and absolute undo corrupts absolutely). The only time I felt anything for undo was in the Eight Mimic Room... I just stepped up my discipline again and it was fine. Overall, a good experience that I fully recommend over a UU run. KDD is filled with rooms which offer little in the way of solving, and if you remove the pressure from execution, then there's simply nothing left, which leaves little point to the exercise. If you're going to use UU, at least save it for puzzles where there are real things to solve and not just raw execution, so you only compromise half the experience.

"Removes a good chunk of the game" is also not an option on the poll... because for some of us, the hack and slash smiting thing is more than just a painted on theme to a puzzle game that should be minimized so it doesn't interfere, it's an intricate and engaging part of the game play that makes DROD special compared to a lot of other puzzle games.
07-07-2014 at 06:59 AM
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Nuntar
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quote:
bwross wrote: Which brings in my thoughts for experienced players. There are only two reasons for them to play it [KDD]: the original experience (graphics, music, rules and limitations, and the AE ending), which forgoes using UU.

The other is to sharpen your saw...

You leave out a third reason, which seems to me to be a good reason for playing a puzzle game.

To have fun.

I've played through KDD three times now. The first time was in the JtRH demo back when I first discovered DROD. The Foundation music became attached in my subconcious to the feeling of playing DROD, and so it still has the same nostalgic weight for me that the AE music does for you. I also love a lot of the new music, especially Beach and the three TSS styles. I also like the AE music, but not enough to want to have it playing throughout a long hold. I love the graphics of the new styles -- especially now they've been updated for the 5.0 engine -- a lot more than the AE graphics. I like having the clock and single undo, because they erase a lot of "bad" frustration -- I have a limited amount of free time, and avoiding the situation where a slip of the finger (or not knowing when tar is about to spawn) forces me to do a whole room over makes it possible to get through the entire hold and enjoy the harder rooms towards the end. These are all subjective choices and I don't think mine are any more "valid" than other options; they're just the way I prefer to play the hold.

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07-07-2014 at 04:46 PM
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Matt2k
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Where is this feature enabled?
I would use it. I don't care about high scores and just want to solve some puzzles. I feel this has the potential to make things more fun.
07-08-2014 at 12:12 AM
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disoriented
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Press F2 in game.

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07-08-2014 at 12:13 AM
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silver
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Matt2k:

first menu, before you select 'play game', there's a 'change settings' button, which brings up a page with 3 tabs. undo-on-death is in first tab, and undo-level (where you can set a few numbers or crank it up to unlimited) is under the third tab.

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07-08-2014 at 12:15 AM
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Jacob
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Change Settings -> Commands -> Undo level slider

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07-08-2014 at 12:17 AM
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Matt2k
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Thank you!
07-08-2014 at 12:22 AM
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bwross
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quote:
Nuntar wrote:
quote:
bwross wrote: Which brings in my thoughts for experienced players. There are only two reasons for them to play it [KDD]: the original experience (graphics, music, rules and limitations, and the AE ending), which forgoes using UU.

The other is to sharpen your saw...

You leave out a third reason, which seems to me to be a good reason for playing a puzzle game.

To have fun.



Which is my point (I haven't left out fun at all). If you want to have fun, play something else. If you want to have fun and play KDD, and you're good enough to finish TSS, play it under its own rules in AE, cause it ain't much fun anyways, so you might as well make a retro play adventure out of it, and get some saw sharpening to boot (and see the AE ending... which wasn't quite the ending text I remember, so maybe my first DROD was the pre-AE Caravel?). Nothing wrong with learning to clean up your tactics, gain better intuition about how much can be done in a cycle (because of the lack of an on screen clock, you need to check manually or count), and you can enjoy the novel puzzles you don't seen much anymore (like stuff hidden under tar... playing with transparent tar is really cheating yourself here... this hold doesn't offer too much, so really, don't go subtracting things, just learn to enjoy the experience for it's novelty in this one hold... like with UU, save the transparent tar for modern stuff).

The thing about just blowing through with TSS level experience and UU is that all you get is a thing... a check mark saying all the rooms are complete. The hordes, the manoeuvring, the puzzles... barely get to the level of the first thing you might have to do in an average TSS room. It will be a long walk with no resistance. But if you make it into a retro gaming adventure, you can turn it into an experience. And although you'll probably still blow through it... at least there will be the feeling of engagement from being focused and experiencing things the way they once were. When it comes to happiness and fun, experiences trump things. The enjoyment of things is fleeting in comparison to a good experience.

So my advice is that if people want to visit KDD (or other old holds), they make experiences out of the trip. For fun's sake. But everyone's still free to blow through KDD with UU and get the short-lived hollow whoop of doing the unimpressive. It won't be that fun for experienced players, and beginners will do a bunch of types of puzzles they'll never see again combined with being able to avoid learning things they should thanks to UU (because really, frustration can be a good learning tool, but frustration plus an easy way out is pretty much pessimal for learning, because things very quickly turn to getting any answer and not a solution). Beginners shouldn't be playing KDD at all, they should come back to it when they're comfortable with things.

[Last edited by bwross at 07-09-2014 07:36 AM]
07-09-2014 at 07:31 AM
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