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komachi
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icon Great place (+3)  
The levels are small except several of them and there isn't backtracking.It also have autosave at the end of every level. It's should be possible reach the last level.
Hope you like it!.

Have fun, and thanks for play it.
Any comments and issues will be grateful.
25/01/16

EDIT14: Added the last level and minor changes.
EDIT15: Lots of changes (see my last post). Important gameplay changes start at level 19.

[Last edited by komachi at 01-25-2016 08:52 AM]
02-18-2013 at 04:04 PM
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Nuntar
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icon Re: Great place (+2)  
This looks like an interesting hold, and I'm only on the fourth level -- and I can see from a glance at the editor that there are plenty more to come!

I have a few suggestions. Firstly, consider autosaving at the start of a new level, not the end of an old one. It's functionally the same, but saves the player going from one to the other every time they decide to restore.

So far, the levels have not had many real choices -- though maybe you've deliberately chosen to start simple and there will be more choices later on? For instance, in the first level, you must attack all three wings to get the yellow keys, and since there are no ATK or DEF gems, the order makes no difference. There's absolutely nothing you can do differently.

Score checkpoints? Maybe I just haven't reached the first one yet.

Is it really possible to defeat the Mud Mother boss in 2:2E?

* * *

As for switching between characters, yes, it's definitely possible. Something like this, I think:

Equipment Swap Command Charswitch
Label "1"
  Each Use "Switch"
  Go to "1"
Label "Switch"
  If...
      Wait until var Role = 0
    Set var Role = 1
    Set var SlayerATK = _ATK
    Set var SlayerDEF = _DEF
    Set var SlayerHP = _HP
    Player role Stalwart
    Set var _ATK = StalwartATK
    Set var _DEF = StalwartDEF
    Set var _HP = StalwartHP
  Else
    Set var Role = 0
    Set var StalwartATK = _ATK
    Set var StalwartDEF = _DEF
    Set var StalwartHP = _HP
    Player role Slayer
    Set var _ATK = SlayerATK
    Set var _DEF = SlayerDEF
    Set var _HP = SlayerHP
  If End
  Go to "1"


(You'll also need to initialise the variables StalwartATK etc. in your setup script.)

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[Last edited by Nuntar at 02-18-2013 06:33 PM]
02-18-2013 at 05:52 PM
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komachi
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icon Re: Great place (0)  
Nuntar, really, really thank you!, it work perfectly. Only want change the arsenal you have beetween both. I haven't words for the help of the command.
Also put correctly the stairs of a level( I dont remember exacly which one), leading to end hold.
02-18-2013 at 09:34 PM
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Midootje
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icon Re: Great place (0)  
Holy moley, this thing gets pretty hard later on. I'm on level 9 at the moment, the northern and eastern puzzles are freaking me out. Nice hold though, not allowing backtracking means you have to do everything you can to leave nothing behind, which requires some pretty detailed planning in big levels. Overall pretty nice! Unusual, but nice.
By the way, Nuntar: the Mud Mother in level 2: 2E is definitely beatable.

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02-19-2013 at 04:03 PM
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komachi
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icon Re: Great place (0)  
There is score checkpoints, but if you want more of them, I can add in specific levels them.
And, that's true, I decided to do around 2 or 3 initiation levels very very easy and increasing the difficulty according you advance in the hold.
As midjootje said, the puzzle of mud mother is possible and a little tricky.

No backtracking for me is "get all important things you can before leave the level". and thinking better what will you do. Of course, surely you will leave items behind you, because don't worth get them.

Thanks for the reply to both :) .
02-19-2013 at 06:12 PM
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Nuntar
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icon Re: Great place (+2)  
Well, well.

Click here to view the secret text


Now that I'm getting further in, I see that having autosaves at the end of each level is suited to a no-backtracking hold; it's comforting to know that if you leave anything, you can restore to the end of the level if you decide later on that you should have taken it.

I'm now up to Level 8, and it's been great fun so far. The early levels were much tighter than I expected, but now there are plenty of choices and it looks like you don't need to get the absolute maximum stats to progress -- which is of course good. My end-of-L7 stats were 2176/143/40, 4/6/0 keys, score 1049.

Definitely put a score checkpoint in Level 7, either on reaching the shield or at the end of the level. It's a large level with plenty of room for optimising, and the player deserves to be rewarded. I'd suggest also having score checkpoints on Levels 5, 8 and 10, fairly major gameplay stages -- even if scores on completing Level 5 aren't going to vary, it's nice to have that sign of making progress. But you don't have to add all the ones I've suggested, it's really up to you.

You might call the boss a different name from Icewing, when there's a regular enemy with the same name in the same room.

EDIT: Now on Level 11. Still enjoying it, but I'm less keen on these "flower bird" enemies that gain ATK each time you kill a monster. It's unexpected and really throws off the player's calculations; maybe you could make the level's introductory scroll a bit more explicit about what to look out for? (And they seem to be drastically overpowered. Either that, or you're expecting the player to have picked up every single ATK gem so far, which is hardly fair.)

And finally, since the room with the next shield is behind a secret wall, you should mark it as a secret room ;)

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[Last edited by Nuntar at 02-20-2013 02:48 AM]
02-20-2013 at 12:49 AM
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komachi
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icon Re: Great place (0)  
quote:
Nuntar wrote:
Now that I'm getting further in, I see that having autosaves at the end of each level is suited to a no-backtracking hold; it's comforting to know that if you leave anything, you can restore to the end of the level if you decide later on that you should have taken it.



You can restore the exit for your point of view, and also can restart the next level, going directly to the stairs, doing the same that the autosave at the start of each level ;).

quote:
Nuntar wrote:
I'm now up to Level 8, and it's been great fun so far. The early levels were much tighter than I expected, but now there are plenty of choices and it looks like you don't need to get the absolute maximum stats to progress -- which is of course good. My end-of-L7 stats were 2176/143/40, 4/6/0 keys, score 1049.


I have a worse score than you, and the level 7 is one of my favourite :).

quote:
Nuntar wrote:
Definitely put a score checkpoint in Level 7, either on reaching the shield or at the end of the level. It's a large level with plenty of room for optimising, and the player deserves to be rewarded. I'd suggest also having score checkpoints on Levels 5, 8 and 10, fairly major gameplay stages -- even if scores on completing Level 5 aren't going to vary, it's nice to have that sign of making progress. But you don't have to add all the ones I've suggested, it's really up to you.

You might call the boss a different name from Icewing, when there's a regular enemy with the same name in the same room.


I will add more score checkpoints in strategics levels, also rename both bosses icewing and the flower bird.

quote:
Nuntar wrote:
Now on Level 11. Still enjoying it, but I'm less keen on these "flower bird" enemies that gain ATK each time you kill a monster. It's unexpected and really throws off the player's calculations; maybe you could make the level's introductory scroll a bit more explicit about what to look out for? (And they seem to be drastically overpowered. Either that, or you're expecting the player to have picked up every single ATK gem so far, which is hardly fair.)

And finally, since the room with the next shield is behind a secret wall, you should mark it as a secret room


I designed the bird with the element in mind of the surprise. One monster that increase the atk every time you kill a monster, and the same for the eye (if you saw it), decrease whenever you kill a monster. Give you to think, must kill the bird before they grow and become "fat" and kill the eye when you slay more monsters.

I can low the bonus or the stats of the bird, but I think that he isnt too much difficult... :? .

Thanks for the feedfack, glad you are enjoying the hold
02-20-2013 at 07:19 PM
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Someone Else
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I like the bird and eye, but I can't seem to beat the goblin. I have 3058/193/40 and Keys 2/0/0 entering level 11.
So far, it's great! But I've been noticing a few places where you can avoid using greckles by moving diagonally, that kind of thing. I'll keep track of them on my next playthrough.
02-20-2013 at 07:36 PM
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Nuntar
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icon Re: Great place (+1)  
quote:
komachi wrote: I designed the bird with the element in mind of the surprise. One monster that increase the atk every time you kill a monster, and the same for the eye (if you saw it), decrease whenever you kill a monster. Give you to think, must kill the bird before they grow and become "fat" and kill the eye when you slay more monsters.

I can low the bonus or the stats of the bird, but I think that he isnt too much difficult... :? .

Thanks for the feedfack, glad you are enjoying the hold

The thing is that in most rooms, you have to kill other monsters to reach the flower birds, so they are already doing substantial damage. At four hits, each +75 ATK boost increases the damage by 225. (The one in Entrance, guarding a +400 HP potion, is already doing more than 400 damage even if you go straight for him!) And the flower bird's stats of 430/??/55 mean that the three-hit ATK threshold is (430 / 3) + 55 = 199. At the moment I would need seven more +2 ATK gems to reach that, which just isn't feasible. So, I would have to redo previous levels to concentrate on getting the maximum possible ATK (and while I enjoyed the mirror puzzles, it's a bit annoying to have to go through them again so soon). It's usually more enjoyable if roadblocks like this don't completely block progress, but result in suboptimal play leading to a worse score -- for instance, you could give me HP or ATK behind several green doors so that I'm losing points by taking them. (Alternatively, you could reward the player for retaining keys by allowing them to be exchanged for more ATK in later levels than earlier ones....)

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[Last edited by Nuntar at 02-20-2013 09:00 PM]
02-20-2013 at 08:13 PM
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Doom
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icon Re: Great place (+1)  
quote:
Someone Else wrote:
I like the bird and eye, but I can't seem to beat the goblin. I have 3058/193/40 and Keys 2/0/0 entering level 11.
So far, it's great! But I've been noticing a few places where you can avoid using greckles by moving diagonally, that kind of thing. I'll keep track of them on my next playthrough.
I played this today and took some notes while playing, including these greckle gates. Also my stats after each level. Probably mostly useful for optimizing, but I'll list them here anyway.

->
Click here to view the secret text

I might replay 10 before starting 11, just to make sure I can't get all the gems with a higher life total.
02-20-2013 at 08:22 PM
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komachi
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That's strange, I could kill the boss and have enough life to continue. I'm going to re-play the hold, to know that the level is possible.

Problably tomorrow will post the results.
02-20-2013 at 09:21 PM
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Someone Else
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icon Re: Great place (+1)  
Yeah, I had many of the same results as you, Doom. But:

Click here to view the secret text

02-20-2013 at 10:10 PM
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komachi
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icon Re: Great place (+2)  
I've updated the hold, the changes are:

-Balanced enemies and potions, i didn't like see lots of large potions.
-autosave, at the end of each level, and I WON'T changed it.
-reduced the bonus of the flower bird when he gain ATK and the demon eye.
-added minor changes to lots of rooms.
-the level 9* haven't enemies now.

The changes start at level 4 (modified the touchwing attack).

I hope the hold is better than before.
Also, I won't changed the ATK you can get in every level, and do more levels if they aren't in good conditions the previous levels.

OH!, and I don't know if the boss of level 11 was possible before the changes, but right now i think that is possible.

[Last edited by komachi at 02-21-2013 08:42 PM]
02-21-2013 at 02:42 PM
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Midootje
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icon Re: Great place (+2)  
Although choices now seem more balanced, I have to say level 9 became pretty much impossible to beat. I started the hold from the beginning, and level 9 simply costs more than the HP you could ever have if you've collected all ATK gems up to that point. This means that if you want to make it through, you'll have to leave 4 ATK behind which will surely cause your death in level 11. Once again, balancing out the potions/monster ratio was nice, but maybe some potions should have remained as they were.

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02-21-2013 at 04:50 PM
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komachi
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icon Re: Great place (+1)  
I figured it :(, the level 9 has became a very hard level, although is possible conquer it. Maybe I'll change some rooms, to making them more fun and less monotonous.
I changed almost every custom monster (lowering their ATK/DEF or life) that appear in the level 10, doing the level much more balanced and easy, isn't required all the ATK of the previous level for handle the level.

The flower birds, the demon eye and the boss are more easier now, I tested it. The boss does me, around half of the damage that he did before the change.
If someone want a little hint for level 9, try keep a good amount of life (around 500-600), and think before kill the monsters, if really worth it the reward.
02-21-2013 at 05:46 PM
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Someone Else
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I managed to collect all the attack gems, and had as final stats upon beating the game:
Click here to view the secret text

Looking really good at this point!

Correction: A broken pressure plate in Level 14:1E stopped me from progressing.

[Last edited by Someone Else at 02-21-2013 09:39 PM]
02-21-2013 at 09:38 PM
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komachi
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Done, I've changed the rooms of the 8 level, except 3 of them, doing them more fun. I've removed the arrows of the new rooms, and allowing the return from 2N 1E to 1N 1E. Also fix the error of Someone else of the level 14, and the score checkpoint of the 8 level, turn into an autosave.
02-22-2013 at 02:26 PM
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Someone Else
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I like the new Level 8. But in 2E it is impossible to drop the black door.
02-22-2013 at 09:16 PM
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komachi
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New update:

-Changed the room 2E of the 8 level, now is possible drop the black door.
-Changed a few big potions of the level 12, putting 3 medium potions instead.
-Changed the room 1S 2E of the level 13 making it more interesting.
-Changed the orientation of the level 20, this isn't important really.
-Fixed almost every puzzle of level 21 due they are imposible.
And, if anyone noticed, removed the portable orb (for open the door) of the level 21, and added a plate in replacement.

[Last edited by komachi at 02-24-2013 02:05 PM]
02-24-2013 at 02:02 PM
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Gordius
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icon Re: Great place (+1)  
The stairs at the end of level 18 now end the hold.
02-24-2013 at 06:06 PM
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komachi
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Fixed, thanks Gordius, don't know why the stairs not going anywhere, even end hold :| .
02-24-2013 at 07:00 PM
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Gordius
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Some clarity on venomous creatures would be useful. As best I can tell, they do a weird minus stats/plus stats with no impact when you kill them, but then after you leave the room, if you come back and pass over the space they were on, you lose HP and stats.

a) Is that the intended behavior?
b) That's a lot of stats you're losing, so it's hard to imagine it ever really being a viable choice. There are other ways to make locations one-pass-only, which might be kinder than this, which is awfully difficult to keep track of.

Another thing that impacts some rooms in the first half, if immediately on entering a room you break tar or step in front of an eye, there's no way to undo those behaviors without resetting to your most recent save, since Resetting the room just puts you back to the point at which you did the thing. Making all the squares you can enter a room on safe from these things isn't necessary, but it would be appreciated.
02-25-2013 at 10:56 PM
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Nuntar
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Two problems here. Firstly, the venomous butterfly tries to react to two different events (stabbing it, and stabbing another monster) by using "Wait for..." instead of a loop.

Scripts work by running the commands in order (unless one command is explicitly to jump to a "label" in a different place in the script), so any script of this form:

Wait for A
React to A
Wait for B
React to B

will always wait until event A occurs before taking further action. If event B occurs and A hasn't occurred yet, nothing will happen. If you want to react to whichever event occurs first, you need to set up a loop that checks, every turn, for both A and B happening; and if neither has happened, use "Wait 0" before looping back, so it doesn't try to execute twice in one turn. The script should look like this:

Label "Start"
If...
  Wait for A
  React to A
Else
  If...
    Wait for B
    React to B
  If End
If End
Wait 0
Go to "Start"


The other problem is the way you've used "Wait for player to touch me". This is triggered by the player trying to move onto the character's square. Looks to me like you wanted to test for the player's sword touching the venomous butterfly.

Unfortunately, there's no direct way to do this (FR, perhaps?). Fortunately, you don't need to. Temporarily subtracting 80 from the player's ATK when he attacks a certain monster, then putting it back when the monster is defeated, is exactly the same as the monster starting out with 80 more DEF. Temporarily subtracting 20 from the player's DEF is exactly the same as the monster starting out with 20 more ATK. I would alter the monster's stats, and remove this scripting entirely :)

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[Last edited by Nuntar at 02-26-2013 12:12 AM]
02-25-2013 at 11:56 PM
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komachi
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I don't want to decrease permanently high stats.
Also, the battle stats(pressing + by defect) know the decrease of the stats before the fight (thing that i don't knew).

I want to test new things, but it's very hard do an original and new type of monster that work correctly (as "flowers monster").

I changed both, now they do damage over a time, affect always so be careful at killing them, having low life; when you exit the room, the venom disappear.
Thanks to both for the reply.

02-26-2013 at 01:17 PM
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Gordius
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The old 8:3E was pretty hard to manage, so I understand why you changed it, but the new one isn't solvable, unless there's something I'm missing. After you open the mimic's cage, he can only break the 2x4 tar east of him by remaining in the cage, but I can see no way to get to your position without having to move SW between the 2x4s to his N and E, which moves him onto the southern arrow and puts the E 2x4 out of play.
02-26-2013 at 11:26 PM
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komachi
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I have been busy recently, and I will be busy those days. So i won't update very often the hold. But i will do it, don't worry ;)

New update:

-changed the room that Gordius mentions.
-changed a room of level 21
-Added a red door in almost every room of level 23, behind them there is potions.
-New level 24
-Changed green eyes/temple guardians/mummies make them more weak.

03-04-2013 at 12:51 PM
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Gordius
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8:3E is great now.

I don't believe the red door in 23:1E can be dropped. Two ins and one out made of red tiles for the center area.

I can't tell whether the changes to the 21:2N2E are enough. I can open the red door and I can get adjacent to it, but can't figure out how to get onto it. I've solved every other puzzle, though I think I should be able to do better on the two that cause damage.

Regardless, though, Level 21 still only has 11 total blue keys and 12 blue doors.
03-08-2013 at 05:13 PM
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komachi
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quote:
Gordius wrote:
8:3E is great now.

I don't believe the red door in 23:1E can be dropped. Two ins and one out made of red tiles for the center area.

I can't tell whether the changes to the 21:2N2E are enough. I can open the red door and I can get adjacent to it, but can't figure out how to get onto it. I've solved every other puzzle, though I think I should be able to do better on the two that cause damage.

Regardless, though, Level 21 still only has 11 total blue keys and 12 blue doors.


*is possible drop the door. Use the switch command when you going to exit from mid.
*21: 2N2E now is possible.
*Now only the 11 keys are required.

Thanks for the feedback and finding those problems Gordius. Next time I'll update the hold those problems will be fixed.
03-10-2013 at 02:44 PM
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Gordius
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Oh, I misread the instructional note on changing characters as saying you could only change right when you enter a room. Maybe reword it as "You can only change characters once on each pass through a room."
03-10-2013 at 05:37 PM
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komachi
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Hi, i'm working in the new level, but I have a big problem:

i'm planing put two new items in this level and the character switch work correctly, with the same arsenal.

I'm trying doing that the command work global. The Nuntar script's doesn't work for weapons unfortunately :( . So if anyone could help with me with the script. I would appreciate it.

A idea that i got is; get first one weapon and later the next one. In this case, I can modify the script without problems.

PD: One boss is far more harder than the another, but always must think in all the posibilities.
03-18-2013 at 07:55 PM
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