jniestad
Level: Goblin
Rank Points: 21
Registered: 07-05-2006
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Hi all,

I'm a hobbyist game developer working with a friend on our first game (he does art, I do programming). About a year ago we participated in the Ludum Dare Jam and won 2nd prize with our story-based puzzle game Together Alone. The 'hook' of the game is that you switch between controlling two characters in a single puzzle. We've been working on an improved version. It is now in beta, and we would like your feedback!

I played a lot of DROD a while back, and the DROD forums seemed like a good place to find beta testers - hope that's okay. I do have to note though, that to seasoned DROD players many of our puzzles will probably seem easy. I hope there's one or two that will take you a while to figure out, though.

If it sounds interesting to you, please check it out. Thanks a lot!

Any feedback is appreciated, but specifically:
* Are the goal and the game elements clear?
* How does the difficulty progression feel to you?
* Does the story add to the game, or did you find it annoying?
* Any comments about the look of the game?

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[Last edited by jniestad at 11-19-2012 04:52 PM : Added link]

Maurog
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1501
Registered: 09-16-2004
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Hmm, a nice twist on trapdoor puzzles. I did the 30 demo levels with three stars. It's definitely acceptable, easily Kongregate quality right now as it is.

The art is a bit meh, but good enough for an indie game. Unlimited undo is nice. Level editor is nice. Consider letting players restart the entire room with the R key, it should be really easy to add. The story and dialogues definitely add flavor, so leave them.

Otherwise, no complaints. The unique thing in the game is the several characters on one tile mechanic, never seen that done before and it really adds to the gameplay. Good job, guys!

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skell
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 3734
Registered: 12-28-2004
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There is a really big problem with the game - the colors. I am not colorblind myself (although I have kinda problem with discerning some colors), but in the first level with the girl, there are blue tiles which drop, and blue tiles (with slight gray tint) which don't. It's too hard for me to discern and someone who is fully colorblind would stand no chance.

Other stuff:

- I don't like the lack of restart key.
- Considering that there is quite a lot of different graphical effects, the sudden change between levels does not fit.
- The art is pretty good, but the animations are, well, very not-smooth which is a big no-no for me. I am one of the guys who prefers 8bit graphics with smoother animations than cool art with stiff motion.
- Clouds were introduced in one level and they they didn't appear in the couple next one, the same with the orb - it's something that could be improved

I haven't played much further, and I haven't played with the story. I'd rate it 3.5 - it's pretty neat but could use more polish .

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Tim
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1979
Registered: 08-07-2004
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As everyone already said, I think the interface really need some work. I'll say things that haven't been said before.

* A restart button would be nice.
* You can switching between the people by clicking on their portrait to the left, but you have to click on yourself in the grid to change is exactly the opposite what I would have expected.
* You have too much story. Look, it's okay if you say it once that it has too much story, but when you reach the next part and I have to tell you the same thing again then it gets a bit boring. And if I tell you a third time that there is too much of the same story, then you would not listen to me anymore.
(On the other hand it could be that I solve the rooms too fast.)
* On the other hand, you say very little about the in-game items. For example, it would be nice if you tell us in advance you could only carry one orb at a time.
* Have you decided what the name is of the female character? It's not a good idea to have 2 different names for the same girl, you know.
* Also it's very nice of you to be able to earn achievements from the editor instead of doing it in the real game.

That should be enough about it for now.

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jniestad
Level: Goblin
Rank Points: 21
Registered: 07-05-2006
IP: Logged

Hi everyone,

Wow, lots of useful feedback, thanks! Restart seems to be a much-requested feature, probably because people are so used to it from DROD. We'll definitely consider adding that.

Maurog wrote: The art is a bit meh, but good enough for an indie game.

Any tips on what to improve? The backgrounds, the tiles, the visual effects?

skell wrote: There is a really big problem with the game - the colors.

Thanks for pointing this out. I'm red/green colorblind myself, so I don't have trouble with these particular colors, but I hate when I can't play a game because of my colorblindness. We'll see, maybe we can tweak the tiles to make them more distinctive.

skell wrote: Considering that there is quite a lot of different graphical effects, the sudden change between levels does not fit.

Yeah, I guess that needs more polish. We'll get on it!

skell wrote: The art is pretty good, but the animations are, well, very not-smooth which is a big no-no for me.

Okay. Is the game not running smoothly for you in general, or do you mean there's not enough frames in the walking animations? The trouble here is that drawing the (relatively few) frames we have already took a long time. I guess in our next game we might try to build characters out of parts and smoothly animate those.

skell wrote: Clouds were introduced in one level and they they didn't appear in the couple next one, the same with the orb - it's something that could be improved

Yeah, I see what you mean. The irony is that it used to be like you suggest, but I moved the levels around to provide a little more variation from one level to the next. But I guess that's potentially annoying/confusing as well.

Tim wrote: You can switching between the people by clicking on their portrait to the left, but you have to click on yourself in the grid to change is exactly the opposite what I would have expected.

Agreed. There's an explanation for this: we were experimenting with a mouse/touch interface (click/tap on a tile to step onto it), and if the characters are standing on adjacent squares, tapping the inactive character should make the active character step onto that square too. Tapping the active character didn't have a 'meaning' yet, so we made that switch to the other character. But I agree, it's illogical and we'll take it out.

Tim wrote: You have too much story. Look, it's okay if you say it once that it has too much story, ...

I'm not sure what you mean. Is the story too repetitive, too slow to progress, or do you not like getting a bit of story before each level? You can switch the story off if it annoys you. I guess it's a matter of taste, other people seem to like it.

Tim wrote: For example, it would be nice if you tell us in advance you could only carry one orb at a time.

Agreed, will add that.

Tim wrote: Have you decided what the name is of the female character? It's not a good idea to have 2 different names for the same girl, you know.

D'oh! In the first version of the game, they were called Peter & Alice. But because we significantly changed the story and characters, we renamed them to Ben & Isabelle. But I see I forgot one 'Alice'. Thanks for spotting it, we had completely overlooked that for 6 months. :-)

Anyway, thanks for all the great feedback, this is really useful for us. If you have anything to add, please let me know.

Jan.

skell
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 3734
Registered: 12-28-2004
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jniestad wrote:

skell wrote: The art is pretty good, but the animations are, well, very not-smooth which is a big no-no for me.

Okay. Is the game not running smoothly for you in general, or do you mean there's not enough frames in the walking animations? The trouble here is that drawing the (relatively few) frames we have already took a long time. I guess in our next game we might try to build characters out of parts and smoothly animate those.

I think it's the inherited problem of the art style you chose, favoring the looks over the smoothness. I know it can't be changed right now, and I know that many people won't see it as a problem, but I am just as I said I am .

jniestad wrote:

skell wrote: Clouds were introduced in one level and they they didn't appear in the couple next one, the same with the orb - it's something that could be improved

Yeah, I see what you mean. The irony is that it used to be like you suggest, but I moved the levels around to provide a little more variation from one level to the next. But I guess that's potentially annoying/confusing as well.

I am not sure whether it's annoying/confusing, or just against common sense. If something is introduced, you expect to run into it in the next few levels just to get more familiarized with it and remember how it works. If a feature is not present right from the very start, I'd progress the levels like that:

- Three easier levels
- Three harder levels
- Tutorial level for clouds
- Three easier levels with clouds
- Three harder levels with clouds
- Tutorial for orbs
- Three easier levels with orbs, the third one may also contain orb
- Three hadrder levels with orbs, the second and third may also contain orb
- etc.

The "three" here is just an example, but that's the generic idea I use to follow in my own games.

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Tim
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1979
Registered: 08-07-2004
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First about your level order.

Please do start with a fixed order of the puzzles before writing hints and text around it, otherwise you will find those things could be in the wrong order.

On the other hand, I understand you already have spent lots of time on the game. To be honest, if you're aiming for "flash game portal"-quality the current puzzle order is good enough.

jniestad wrote:
Wow, lots of useful feedback, thanks! Restart seems to be a much-requested feature, probably because people are so used to it from DROD. We'll definitely consider adding that.

Erm, it's not because people are so used to it from DROD. It's that the other alternatives (clicking home and select level again, or keep pressing backspace) are very annoying.

Tim wrote: You have too much story. Look, it's okay if you say it once that it has too much story, ...

I'm not sure what you mean. Is the story too repetitive, too slow to progress, or do you not like getting a bit of story before each level? You can switch the story off if it annoys you. I guess it's a matter of taste, other people seem to like it.

I guess that was meant to be intentionally incomprehensible. Let's just reword this:

Perhaps because I solve the levels too quickly, half of my time I'm just pressing space to advance the text.

It also seems like because you want to write something in every level, the story became... I mean, I've read over 30 pieces of texts (and constantly pressing space) to find the story not actually have progressed? How many levels have you planned to be able to actually finish the story?

I don't mind if you really want to talk about "koetjes en kalfjes" in every level, but I think you will find that, at this rate, you won't be able to finish the story in 100 levels. And 100 levels is probably too large for a flash portal game.

PS. I've added another mod point so you should be able to link to the game/website directly. Please don't spam too much though.

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[Last edited by Tim at 11-19-2012 02:03 PM]

jniestad
Level: Goblin
Rank Points: 21
Registered: 07-05-2006
IP: Logged

Thanks again! Don't worry, you've convinced us of the need for a restart key; that's coming soon. :-)

Also, as you both suggest, I will go back to the per-feature level layout. It's kind of tricky, because we want to show off the variety before people get bored, but you're right that it probably doesn't make sense to introduce something and then not see it again for a few levels. Guess it's a balancing act.

As for the tooltips: have you found any places where the order of tooltips is illogical, requiring players to know something before they get the tooltip? Or was that just general advice?

The full story takes 75 levels. I agree that not that much 'happens' in the first 30; it's mostly introductions and learning about the characters' past. I hope that people find the dialogue entertaining. Then again, the whole story is basically just dialogue, so I'm sure if you didn't enjoy the first 30 levels, you probably won't like the rest all that much either. As I said, you can always switch it off in the Settings (or dismiss it with Escape, you don't have to press Space). In future games, we'll probably handle the story differently, though, as I do agree this form has its drawbacks.

Thanks for the mod point, I've updated the original post. I will restrict my link spamming to a reasonable rate, one per day or so. ;-)

UPDATE: I tried to mod you all up for your helpful comments, but I could only mod up the first post. Sorry!

Jan.

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[Last edited by jniestad at 11-19-2012 05:18 PM : added remark about modding]

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4592
Registered: 02-20-2007
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Excellent game! (Currently stuck on Level 25... I also missed getting three stars on a couple of levels prior to this. I assume it's possible on all of them? That's a really neat mechanic, as it helps the player progress but also sets them a challenge target.) I have to say, I really like the way the levels switch between different features because it keeps each one from getting stale. I really like the story and the art; it adds a lot of atmosphere.

I don't remember grey tiles and pushable tiles ever being explained, but it wasn't too hard to work out what they did.

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jniestad
Level: Goblin
Rank Points: 21
Registered: 07-05-2006
IP: Logged

Thanks for your comments Nuntar! Yes, every level can be finished with 3 stars.

Good to hear you like the variety from level to level. Again, something can be said for both approaches. I'll probably agonize over it some more. ;-)

As for explaining game elements: you're right, whenever possible, we try to put the player in a situation where they are 'forced' to find out what a new element does. See levels 4 and 20, for example.

Level 25 is kind of devious. :-) If you're still stuck, let me know and I'll provide a discrete hint.

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[Last edited by jniestad at 11-20-2012 07:24 AM]

Tim
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1979
Registered: 08-07-2004
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jniestad wrote: As for the tooltips: have you found any places where the order of tooltips is illogical, requiring players to know something before they get the tooltip? Or was that just general advice?

I'm not completely sure what you are talking about, but if you're asking if we can tell you where you need to place hints about your items, you need to decide on the final level order first. Without that, all work on this is futile.

When you have decided on that, come back and then we can help you on it.

The full story takes 75 levels. I agree that not that much 'happens' in the first 30; it's mostly introductions and learning about the characters' past. I hope that people find the dialogue entertaining. Then again, the whole story is basically just dialogue, so I'm sure if you didn't enjoy the first 30 levels,

This is not about enjoying. In fact, having written stories for my own holds and for Caravel, I'm very interested to see how you are able to "cram" the rest of the "love story" into the rest of the 45 levels.

Something else, the white font that you are using, can you please add a border around it? Some of white texts are just not visible on a blue/white background.

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jniestad
Level: Goblin
Rank Points: 21
Registered: 07-05-2006
IP: Logged

Thanks for your comments, Tim. I wasn't asking for help placing the tooltips, just if you had any complaints about the way they are placed now. But thanks for offering, anyway.

Which of the white texts do you have trouble reading? I checked, but I don't really see where that would be a problem. But please correct me if I'm wrong.

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[Last edited by jniestad at 11-20-2012 06:19 PM]

jniestad
Level: Goblin
Rank Points: 21
Registered: 07-05-2006
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I think I see what you mean with the white text; I'm adding a subtle shadow to make it stand out a little more.

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4592
Registered: 02-20-2007
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Okay, completed every level with 3 stars now The solutions seem so simple once you find them, but they are often not easy to spot -- excellent puzzles, in other words.

jniestad wrote: As for explaining game elements: you're right, whenever possible, we try to put the player in a situation where they are 'forced' to find out what a new element does. See levels 4 and 20, for example.

Hmm. But I remember other features being explained, so it seems inconsistent. I thought I'd play through again to have another look, but it turns out the game remembers my previous progress and doesn't show tutorial comments again. Both of which I'd be pleased about in any other context Though I suppose for things like the orbs, which involve a new control, you really have to explain them.

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Tim
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1979
Registered: 08-07-2004
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jniestad wrote:
I think I see what you mean with the white text; I'm adding a subtle shadow to make it stand out a little more.

Sorry about this. I had a screenshot made but I was too busy the last couple of days (actually I still am).

Glad you've found the problem as well.

If you have a new version up then let me know and I (hope I) will check it again.

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jniestad
Level: Goblin
Rank Points: 21
Registered: 07-05-2006
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Hi everyone,

It's been a while, but the game is done. Or at least, we've decided to stop working on it for now. :-) We really appreciate your feedback, we took it to heart and it definitely improved the game.

You're all named in the credits, of course. Also, we've mailed/PM'ed each of you an advance copy of the full game (if you didn't get it, please let us know), hope you enjoy it! If you have any more feedback, that's always welcome.
Thanks again!

Jan Niestadt,
Qwok Games

logicGamesFan
Level: Delver
Rank Points: 40
Registered: 03-09-2009
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A little late to the party, but here's my 2 cents.

I remember playing it way back when it still was a contest entry (on jayisgames?) and I liked the twists to blackout logic subgenre (as I call it). This version looks really nice. Animations may be a little stiff, but I really feel stupid complaining about it on DROD forum of all places Undoing was a little strange. I always prefer to have a rewind feel to it (reverting animations). Overall the demo was pretty easy, but I guess that was the point and I still really enjoyed it. Surprisingly I was really interested in story being told, great writing there.

I will probably buy the game, depending on the price point. Best of luck, hope you manage to get some publicity.

jniestad
Level: Goblin
Rank Points: 21
Registered: 07-05-2006
IP: Logged

Hi logicGamesFan,

Thanks, glad you enjoyed it! It'll only be a few bucks when we release it (still working on a trailer, and real life keeps getting in the way). We might even post a discount code for DROD'ers if Caravel doesn't mind.

Jan.

Schik
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 5383
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Hey, cool game. The normal 30 levels are pretty easy for most DROD fans, the challenges got pretty interesting though.

I can't see why we would mind if you gave DROD fans a discount code.

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Bombadil
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 509
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I finished the demo, and can't wait for more. So, good job, guys!

It was a bit disappointing to see the full version is not ready after that, I guess I'll have to wait.

jniestad
Level: Goblin
Rank Points: 21
Registered: 07-05-2006
IP: Logged

Hey all, just wanted to let you know the full game is available for free from our site now. Enjoy!