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Caravel Forum : DROD Boards : Feature Requests : incorporated serpent clock
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larrymurk
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icon incorporated serpent clock (0)  
Wouldn't it be nice to have a clock with
1. Serpent timer
2. Water skipper timer
3. Queen spawn count up/down
4. Speed 1/2 turn indicator


I know, I know, there are those traditionalists who will want to keep the standard clock (you know, the ones who still resist unlimited undo).

I know we can download said clock, but couldn't it be standard or maybe an option on the setup menu?

[Last edited by larrymurk at 07-13-2012 11:31 PM]
07-13-2012 at 11:30 PM
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Jatopian
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icon Re: incorporated serpent clock (0)  
This is not a bad idea, but we'd need a person who can do graphics.

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07-14-2012 at 04:08 AM
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Banjooie
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icon Re: incorporated serpent clock (+1)  
...if we put a serpent timer in, more people will do snake manipulation puzzles that require a serpent timer.

I'm not okay with that. :(
07-14-2012 at 09:48 AM
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icon Re: incorporated serpent clock (0)  
Jatopian wrote:
This is not a bad idea, but we'd need a person who can do graphics.
I can do graphics well, but I'd expect that Caravel might already be working on something like this for 5 in-house.

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07-14-2012 at 07:17 PM
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larrymurk
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icon Re: incorporated serpent clock (0)  
I must say I'm partial towards Jutt's clock using game elements:)

Jutts Clock

07-14-2012 at 11:14 PM
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Jutt
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icon Re: incorporated serpent clock (+1)  
Thank you, I'm flattered, but before putting it in the next official release we should consider everyone's needs. I believe a lot of people have different preferences for serpent clocks, so maybe we should be rethinking the modding functionality of clocks. I'd envision a system similar to styles where you can download new clocks from CaravelNet and have a nice management screen where you can switch between them. And for people who don't have CNet, we can still include a few different clocks in the demo to choose from.

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07-14-2012 at 11:31 PM
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Jatopian
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icon Re: incorporated serpent clock (0)  
Ah yes, CaravelNet clock mod download section (like for room styles) would be better.

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07-15-2012 at 01:57 AM
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skell
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icon Re: incorporated serpent clock (+1)  
How about implementing a couple of clocks right off the bat and notifying the player in the course of playing the TSS (preferably somewhere early) that you can click on a clock to switch them?

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07-15-2012 at 07:57 AM
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mrimer
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icon Re: incorporated serpent clock (+1)  
skell wrote:
How about implementing a couple of clocks right off the bat and notifying the player in the course of playing the TSS (preferably somewhere early) that you can click on a clock to switch them?
I like this idea. Caravel might be shoulder-tapping some clock makers, asking for permission to include their works in the distributed game engine.

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07-16-2012 at 06:38 AM
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icon Re: incorporated serpent clock (+1)  
But the creation of previous player-made clocks has been (I understand it) under the condition that only AE graphics could be used, and not more recent ones. "Official" clocks without that restriction would make more sense for inclusion in a new game, I would say...
07-16-2012 at 11:50 AM
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Jatopian
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icon Re: incorporated serpent clock (0)  
Moo wrote:
But the creation of previous player-made clocks has been (I understand it) under the condition that only AE graphics could be used, and not more recent ones. "Official" clocks without that restriction would make more sense for inclusion in a new game, I would say...
Maybe. Certainly I'm not sure that the player-made clocks look as nice (or in keeping with the rest of DROD's graphics) as a new one would.
Banjooie wrote:
...if we put a serpent timer in, more people will do snake manipulation puzzles that require a serpent timer.

I'm not okay with that. :(
This is true, but I'm not sure what can be done about that. The really nasty serpent puzzles are done by veterans who can say "just install a clock mod", but I guess the less nasty ones are still a bit annoying.

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[Last edited by Jatopian at 07-16-2012 12:28 PM]
07-16-2012 at 12:26 PM
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icon Re: incorporated serpent clock (+1)  
If we get a new clock, it needs:

1) Referential subtlety (like, the DAA symbol etched into it)

2) Snake timers that block out 29 to 3 and 4 to 8 (etc.) rather than 30 to 4 and 5 to 9. Oh please please please do this. A snake's planned movement for a turn is figured after the turn changes, not before, which is counterintuitive because it works the opposite way for the player. This means snakes appear to change preference one turn prior to every 5th turn (which is always the most annoying part of charming, to me).

3) Actual vertical and horizontal symbols for the above.

4) Skipper and roach spawn times, and maybe even egg time.

So here's my wild-ass suggestion. I favor an analog clock with multiple hands which count down each event separately. I'll sketch this later (and maybe just go ahead and make it myself), but the idea is, the longest hand has a roach queen symbol on the end of it, and it points to a ring of numbers 0 through 29. The next-longest hand has a skipper on it, and it points to an inner ring of only ten tick marks (every three ticks of the outer ring). The shortest hand has a snake on it which points to the innermost ring which features the same ten tick marks, except that half of the ring is shaded one color and has a horz snake, and the other half is another color and has a vert snake. The snake and skipper hands will always be one turn off so they move together like a V shape.

To make it extra cool (which I won't be able to do by myself), have the inner hands disappear if there are no snakes or skippers, and the outer hand's queen symbol disappear if there are no queens (but the clock still remains a constant feature because there are many other uses for it). Make the half-tick marks appear whenever you are hasted by a speed potion. Maybe even allow a "custom" change to the clock, like, a big dot on one of the tick marks to mark when a fuse will blow (set by scripting).

EDIT: That script feature would be particularly useful for efficiency puzzles. There is a series of five floors in my hardest tower in which I would use "mark a tick" for each one of them if I could, since they all have arbitrary timers in the form of outside briar influence.

Oh, and one other thing... The optional "turn counter" should definitely be a small digital addition to the clock interface! There's no reason to make it an ugly option that floats over the screen like it currently does. It's useful even if you're not an optimizer, and should just be a permanent feature.

As it is now, the only advantage to having the ugly bright yellow numbers which are painful to see over white pits and fog is you can effectively hide secrets from optimizers at (0,0) and (1,0). :D

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[Last edited by Trickster at 07-16-2012 07:48 PM]
07-16-2012 at 07:44 PM
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Dischorran
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icon Re: incorporated serpent clock (0)  
Multi-dial chronometer! Big hand counting the 30-second queen/tar cycle, little inset dials counting off snake preference, waterskipper spawn, and whatever comes in with TSS, digital display for total move count? I could see that working directly off the default mechanical clock thing.

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07-16-2012 at 08:44 PM
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Trickster
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Dischorran wrote:
Multi-dial chronometer! Big hand counting the 30-second queen/tar cycle, little inset dials counting off snake preference, waterskipper spawn, and whatever comes in with TSS, digital display for total move count? I could see that working directly off the default mechanical clock thing.
It could, actually, but it would be preferable if the two inner hands moved at triple the speed of the outer one. Then you only have two snake areas and one skipper-spawn point on the clock.

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07-16-2012 at 08:58 PM
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icon Re: incorporated serpent clock (+1)  
Dischorran wrote:
Multi-dial chronometer! Big hand counting the 30-second queen/tar cycle, little inset dials counting off snake preference, waterskipper spawn, and whatever comes in with TSS, digital display for total move count? I could see that working directly off the default mechanical clock thing.
This clock from the 2.0 era is pretty close, just add three markers for waterskippers :P

It's rather crowded I think but with more subtle art could probably be a winner.

As for Trickster's variation... it's not bad but I think it'd be much cleaner if you combined the serpent and waterskipper hands and adjusted the serpent halves accordingly.

edit:
Attached a rough idea of my "ideal" clock. No waterskipper timer because I find I very rarely need to see the exact spawn and in those cases you can just pay more attention to the 10s on the regular clock (highlighted). Snake timer of course is a must, the advantage of this one is no additional moving parts. Rest is as close to the original design as possible. Not sure about turn# in the middle, if we really want to make it prettier it might look better in a dedicated frame outside the clock.

[Last edited by Doom at 07-17-2012 02:13 AM]
07-16-2012 at 09:11 PM
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Dischorran
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icon Re: incorporated serpent clock (+1)  
I was thinking more along the lines of this super-rough mockup. Maybe with the monsters changed to some gold-and-black embossed looking symbols. It's a bit crowded, but looks more like an old-school watch than some of the alternatives.

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07-16-2012 at 11:51 PM
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icon Re: incorporated serpent clock (+1)  
Jutt's clock has in my opinion a far better way of showing serpent movement than any other clock I've seen. You need only take a glance at it to know exactly what moves the serpents are going to do and have just done. The snake walking around the clock should not be missed if an official serpent clock was made.

Banjooie wrote:
...if we put a serpent timer in, more people will do snake manipulation puzzles that require a serpent timer.

I'm not okay with that. :(
Eh, have you ever even tried a serpent clock? I can see why people don't consider snake manipulation fun. But all you need for them to be fun, or at least equally fun as most other DROD concepts, is to know the serpents movement preferences: N>E>S>W, and to have a serpent clock. Fine if you don't want to do that, but it's definitely not too much to ask the player for an architect.

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07-17-2012 at 11:37 AM
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Jatopian
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icon Re: incorporated serpent clock (0)  
Erik Hermansen once wrote a little guide for architects, and one of the best points he made was that we should not expect players to be DROD scientists, experimenting to learn every last rule and detail of the game. It's not fun.

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07-17-2012 at 01:39 PM
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Jatopian wrote:
Erik Hermansen once wrote a little guide for architects, and one of the best points he made was that we should not expect players to be DROD scientists, experimenting to learn every last rule and detail of the game. It's not fun.
I disagree. And really, I don't think you're missing out because there's room for puzzles for everyone. As long as the architect is clear with what type of hold he/she has made, I don't see a problem.

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[Last edited by Rheb at 07-17-2012 01:46 PM]
07-17-2012 at 01:45 PM
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I think any rooms with serpents in them are more fun if you can predict where they're going.

Whether it's relevant to the puzzle or not.

Certainly didn't care about it as a new player and wouldn't expect it to be a requirement in most holds, but it really is a huge convenience after you get used to it. And improves your scores in snake rooms a ton too, if you're into that sort of thing.

[Last edited by Doom at 07-17-2012 04:40 PM]
07-17-2012 at 04:21 PM
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Banjooie wrote:
...if we put a serpent timer in, more people will do snake manipulation puzzles that require a serpent timer.

I'm not okay with that. :(
Just to beat this to death some more:

1) No they won't. A clock doesn't make it any easier to design a snake puzzle, only to solve it. I doubt there are architects who have "held off" on making snake puzzles until they see a new clock.

2) There's no such thing as a snake manipulation puzzle that requires a serpent timer. I say this as someone who beat Master Locks Expert back when I had very little (if any) understanding on why snakes moved the way they did. Persistence is sufficient in almost all cases.

3) There are a lot of holds out there so you can pretty much avoid the hissy holds if you need to. Even if this led to a significant increase in venomous ophidians, it's not likely to retard the number of snakeless holds.

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07-17-2012 at 04:46 PM
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Banjooie
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icon Re: incorporated serpent clock (+2)  
I am pretty sure every DROD concept that isn't brained wraithwings is more fun than the arcane nature of serpent movement.

I get that you can predict it. I get that there's some arcane thing where it's moving Horizontal 2 every 5 turns, and then Vertical 1 I've read up on your serpent movement literally for 7 years now.

It's never explained in a satisfactory manner in any of the games, and in fact it's explained as 'the heartbeat of the earth' in one game.

I have installed your serpent clocks and still don't understand what the devil they have to do with anything. And I'm going to wager that I'm not the only DROD player who finds it obtuse and not fun to work with.

So if you do make the serpent clock inherent to DROD, you're going to put something, in the main hold, I don't care if it's a tutorial offshoot, that explains step by step how serpent movement works, otherwise it's just going to justify a lot of really annoying rooms.

And that's step by step. I don't want any 'It moves north, then east', because unless you already /get/ snake movement, it doesn't make sense that it moves north, then east, then south, than west, because it's not doing that.

07-20-2012 at 07:48 PM
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I agree it isn't explained well.

I've wanted to do a reference hold for a long time. Not a tutorial, not a puzzle hold, only a comprehensive reference which succinctly explains every peculiar thing in DROD.

However, I think snakes work like this:

If you're in line with them and they're moving away from you, they want to continue moving away.

...else if you're in line with them and they're not moving away from you, they want to move directly toward you.

...else you're not in line with them. In this case, they want to move vertically toward you if the last digit on the clock is 4 through 8, horizontally toward you otherwise. This is the only case where the clock matters for unbrained snakes.

If they can't move to the tile they want to move to, they instead want to move North. If North is blocked they want to move East. If East is also blocked they want to move South. If South is also blocked they want to move West. If West is also blocked they begin to die.

I think that's all there is to it. But all the current serpent clocks are off by one tick, so they're rather crappy and confusing as it stands.

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[Last edited by Trickster at 07-20-2012 08:27 PM]
07-20-2012 at 08:25 PM
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Jatopian
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People can say all they want that an official serpent clock wouldn't lead to more and worse serpent manipulation rooms, but that only indicates that they don't understand how humans work, mentally. Official support lends an air of legitimacy to the underlying concept and plants the idea of making serpent rooms in every architect who looks at the new clock, not all of whom will have the good sense to realize how it might annoy a swath of their players.

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07-20-2012 at 08:29 PM
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icon Re: incorporated serpent clock (+1)  
Jatopian wrote:
People can say all they want that an official serpent clock wouldn't lead to more and worse serpent manipulation rooms, but that only indicates that they don't understand how humans work, mentally. Official support lends an air of legitimacy to the underlying concept and plants the idea of making serpent rooms in every architect who looks at the new clock, not all of whom will have the good sense to realize how it might annoy a swath of their players.
I disagree. Personally I find the normal clock sufficient for understanding and predicting snake movement. Also, any type of room requiring extremely specific manipulation is not a good room, this isn't limited to serpents.

I can't understand why there is so much hatred of serpent manipulation puzzles. There are many drod rules which are more complicated or harder to remember: goblin diagonal movement preference, wraithwings, brained movement of various monsters, etc. Now, serpents have well defined and predictable rules which are quite simple to learn through practise, so by comparison their movement is trivial to understand.

Finally, there are over 400 holds, if someone doesn't like the snake puzzles in one hold they can go play a different hold instead. No need to complain.

Edit: and to talk about the original idea, I think it is very good and there is no harm in offering people some choice.

[Last edited by da rogu3 at 07-20-2012 08:54 PM]
07-20-2012 at 08:50 PM
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Jatopian wrote:
Official support lends an air of legitimacy to the underlying concept...
The only people who still think that the concept of snake manipulation is "illegitimate" are people who don't like snake manipulation puzzles.

Snake manipulation puzzles have always had official support. They appear in the first three games and snake manipulation is the entire theme of two SmS holds. The only architects who currently think they're not legitimate dislike snakes and aren't about to make the puzzles you hate.

You might as well say "we shouldn't have the vision token because this encourages tarstuff". Most people don't appear to have your snake aversion anyway, so even if it did cause more snake puzzles to be created (which I still think is ridiculous), it would be justified by the demand and the fact that nobody's forcing you to play all the snake holds. You haven't even attempted half of the holds on CN, for one. Sheesh.

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07-20-2012 at 11:12 PM
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icon Re: incorporated serpent clock (0)  
You might as well not have the vision token now, as the previously-"cheat" transparent tarstuff mod now has now been made legitimate by being included as a slider in the game engine... Rendering the token and any puzzles that relied on the "unpopular" hiding of things behind tarstuff pretty obsolete.

Including a snake clock will just simplify something a lot of people would end up doing at one point, and if it's optional (click to show/hide, as current), it won't get in the way of anything. If it means it could look nicer thanks to modern graphics etc, that's a bonus.

As for architects, whatever the status of snake clocks... Snakers gonna snake!
07-21-2012 at 12:25 AM
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icon Re: incorporated serpent clock (+2)  
Moo wrote:
You might as well not have the vision token now, as the previously-"cheat" transparent tarstuff mod now has now been made legitimate by being included as a slider in the game engine... Rendering the token and any puzzles that relied on the "unpopular" hiding of things behind tarstuff pretty obsolete.
The vision token still allows you to see all evil eye gazes while it is active, which I think should be an option always available to the player, but that's my opinion.
07-21-2012 at 01:05 AM
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icon Re: incorporated serpent clock (+1)  
It's been a while since I got -20 for a post, so...

Allow me to sum up my sympathies for all y'all snake-haters.

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And now I will stop commenting on this silliness altogether and go back to sleep. See you next time someone proposes something sensible.

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07-21-2012 at 02:29 AM
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icon Re: incorporated serpent clock (0)  
That's because there was never a puzzle made better by hiding things under tar.

With, alright, the one exception of back before scripting, when you were supposed to learn a password, and hit orbs in a certain order, and basically the tar kept you from just solving the orb puzzle.

Basically, I like information being visible, but snake information is just...ugh.
07-21-2012 at 10:33 AM
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