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Stefan
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icon Move count extremes in KDD (+1)  
I'm not entirely sure if this has been asked before (didn't find it on the forums), but here's my question(s):

Which room(s) in King Dugan's Dungeon require the most amount of moves and which room(s) require the least?
Bonus: What are the best possible move counts for the rooms in question?

The following rules apply:
- There has to be at least one monster in the room
- The move count that counts is the one recorded on the victory-demo

I have the answer to at least the first question. I believe I know the answer to the bonus question too, but that can be open for discussion.

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08-09-2004 at 12:26 AM
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eytanz
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icon Re: Move count extremes in KDD (0)  
What do you mean by "requires the most amount of moves"? That only makes sense if you're comparing optimal solutions of different rooms, since almost every room can be solved in an arbitrarily high number of moves (serpent rooms are the only rooms where it's possible to have a maximum amount of moves before the room becomes impossible/solved). But to know that, we need to know the optimal solution to each room...

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08-10-2004 at 01:42 AM
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The_Red_Hawk
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icon Re: Move count extremes in KDD (0)  
I tried to get something like this going once also, where each person would find the least number of moves for each room then add them up to find the total in the level. I remember getting levels 1 and 2 done, but as the rooms get more complicated, nobody really wanted to continue. It's still on the forums somewhere.

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08-10-2004 at 02:15 AM
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Stefan
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icon Re: Move count extremes in KDD (0)  
quote:
eytanz wrote:
What do you mean by "requires the most amount of moves"? That only makes sense if you're comparing optimal solutions of different rooms, since almost every room can be solved in an arbitrarily high number of moves (serpent rooms are the only rooms where it's possible to have a maximum amount of moves before the room becomes impossible/solved). But to know that, we need to know the optimal solution to each room...
By that I mean as you thought (compare the optimal solutions), but you don't have to optimize your move count for every room to get the answer, you just have to find a room (or several) that is theoretically impossible to complete in under an x amount of moves, and then complete all other rooms in under x number of moves...

This part of the challenge is actually easier than you think. The room that requires the least amount of rooms is harder to find.

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08-10-2004 at 05:25 AM
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mrimer
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icon Re: Move count extremes in KDD (+1)  
In other words, we're looking for the room that has the largest optimal move count of all the rooms. (Didn't we talk about this before? I'm pretty sure it's one of those serpent rooms in L12, and it requires something like 1200 moves, but all other rooms in the entire KDD can be beaten in fewer moves than that.)

But I'm exactly sure which room fits this description for JtRH.

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08-10-2004 at 06:45 AM
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Stefan
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icon Re: Move count extremes in KDD (0)  
quote:
mrimer wrote:
In other words, we're looking for the room that has the largest optimal move count of all the rooms.

...and the room that has the smallest optimal move count.
quote:
(Didn't we talk about this before?
I tried searching the forums, but couldn't find it (I may very well have missed it)
quote:
I'm pretty sure it's one of those serpent rooms in L12, and it requires something like 1200 moves, but all other rooms in the entire KDD can be beaten in fewer moves than that.)
Yes, but I'd say it requires a bit more than that (~1400 moves)
quote:
But I'm exactly sure which room fits this description for JtRH.
:evilmad:

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08-10-2004 at 12:54 PM
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DiMono
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icon Re: Move count extremes in KDD (0)  
I did it in 1456 moves, I'd be surprised if you could cut it down past 1455... my solution was pretty optimal. I'd sort of like a checkpoint for when you exit that area though... :P

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08-10-2004 at 03:54 PM
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Stefan
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icon Re: Move count extremes in KDD (0)  
quote:
DiMono wrote:
I did it in 1456 moves, I'd be surprised if you could cut it down past 1455... my solution was pretty optimal. I'd sort of like a checkpoint for when you exit that area though... :P
Actually, my move count is under 1440...

And while trying to lower my move count I put a checkpoint just beside the outer orb :)

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08-10-2004 at 04:10 PM
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eytanz
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icon Re: Move count extremes in KDD (+1)  
quote:
mrimer wrote:
But I'm exactly sure which room fits this description for JtRH.


It's the one which emulates the 24-sphere tower of hanoi, right? ;)

Eytan

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08-10-2004 at 06:56 PM
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Doom
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icon Re: Move count extremes in KDD (0)  
Nobody has yet said what's the room that requires least amount of moves.

L4:1N 1E requires 15 moves to conquer and exit. (Optimal solution) Are there any rooms quicker than that?
08-11-2004 at 12:30 AM
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Stefan
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icon Re: Move count extremes in KDD (0)  
Yes, there are/there is. And there is another room that also requires 15 moves to complete.

If mimic placement wouldn't count then this would be the quickest room (although there is another room that also requires only 9 moves without mimic placement moves)

[Edited by Stefan on 08-10-2004 at 11:46 PM GMT]

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08-11-2004 at 12:45 AM
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Scott
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icon Re: Move count extremes in KDD (0)  
I found it. 1S2E level 11 can be done in 9 moves.
08-11-2004 at 02:21 AM
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Stefan
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icon Re: Move count extremes in KDD (0)  
quote:
Scott wrote:
I found it. 1S2E level 11 can be done in 9 moves.
Yup, that's the room (and the move count)!

So, the room in KDD that requires the least number of moves (9) is L11 1S2E, and the room that requires the most amount of moves is L12 1S1E (but what is the optimal move count for this room?).

The challenge wasn't that hard after all. Those who want to continue hunting for move count extremes can always make a list with the three shortest and the three longest rooms. So far we've found this:


Lowest move count:
1. L11: 1S2E (9 moves)
2. ?
3. L4: 1N1E (15 moves) / ?

I know that there is a room that can be done in 13 moves, so that's why I put the L4-room om 3rd place, and I also know that there is another room that requires 15 moves, hence the shared 3rd place.


Highest move count:
1. L12: 1S1E (what is the lowest possible move count for this room?)
2. ?
3. ?

I don't really know the 2nd and 3rd highest move count rooms. I think I know the 2nd place, but I'm very unsure.

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08-11-2004 at 03:23 AM
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The_Red_Hawk
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icon Re: Move count extremes in KDD (0)  
Which one do you think it is? Maybe one of us will try and test it.

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08-11-2004 at 03:57 AM
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Stefan
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icon Re: Move count extremes in KDD (0)  
quote:
The_Red_Hawk wrote:
Which one do you think it is? Maybe one of us will try and test it.
I thought it was L21: 1W, but I tried optimizing it and was able to cut down my move count quite a lot (right now I've been able to complete it in 1063 moves), so I don't think it's this room anymore. Other rooms with high move counts that I'm trying to optimize are L12:1N2E (currently 990 moves, but I was a bit sloppy at the end), L16: 1N (1095, this room might be the one, as you have to wait for the tar to grow (unless anyone has an alternative solution)), L17:1N (1043, haven't tried optimizing yet), L22:1W (1130, haven't tried optimizing yet) and L18:1N1E (910).

I think I should go through all my victory-demos again and write down all rooms with a higher move count than 900 (I did the same thing the first time, but then I only wrote down those with a move count higher than 1000).

Right now I have to sleep :)

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08-11-2004 at 05:27 AM
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Scott
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icon Re: Move count extremes in KDD (0)  
17 1N my demo is 845. It won't be the one.

Edit: Replayed 16 1N managed 761 without much trouble less is possible.

[Edited by Scott on 08-11-2004 at 05:13 AM GMT]
08-11-2004 at 06:00 AM
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Stefan
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icon Re: Move count extremes in KDD (0)  
quote:
Scott wrote:
Edit: Replayed 16 1N managed 761 without much trouble less is possible.
How? I'd love to see a demo. (Can't figure out how to do it without filling the chamber with tar)

Anyway, here's an update:
L21:1W    1030
L12:1N2E  848
L9:4N2E   812
L24:1N2W  810 (haven't tried optimizing)
L21:1S1E  804 (haven't tried optimizing)
All other rooms (except L12:1S1E, of course) can be done in under 800 moves (although I haven't found a way to do L16:1N in under 1000 moves).

It seems that L21:1W will be on 2nd place after all, and it is hard to cut down very much on L12:1N2E, so I think that room will be 3rd.

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08-14-2004 at 04:37 PM
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Scott
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File: KDD Sixteenth Level 1N Victory.demo (1.3 KB)
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icon Re: Move count extremes in KDD (+1)  
Heres the demo for 16 1N.
08-15-2004 at 05:03 AM
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Rabscuttle
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icon Re: Move count extremes in KDD (0)  
Digging up this thread, because I can't wait for JtRH (and because there are some unanswered questions)

quote:
Stefan wrote:
quote:
Scott wrote:
I found it. 1S2E level 11 can be done in 9 moves.
Yup, that's the room (and the move count)!

So, the room in KDD that requires the least number of moves (9) is L11 1S2E, and the room that requires the most amount of moves is L12 1S1E (but what is the optimal move count for this room?).

The challenge wasn't that hard after all. Those who want to continue hunting for move count extremes can always make a list with the three shortest and the three longest rooms. So far we've found this:


Lowest move count:
1. L11: 1S2E (9 moves)
2. ?
3. L4: 1N1E (15 moves) / ?

I know that there is a room that can be done in 13 moves, so that's why I put the L4-room om 3rd place, and I also know that there is another room that requires 15 moves, hence the shared 3rd place.



The other third place room is L11: 1S1E.

Second place must belong to L18: 2N1E, although my current best is only 14.

The other 9-not-including-mimic placement, is L11: 2E.

Can't argue with the top two long ones.

(dangit, I've just found an improvement to L12: 1S1E)
12-16-2004 at 12:23 AM
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Rabscuttle
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icon Re: Move count extremes in KDD (+2)  
For those that are interested, here is the top of my longest list.
L12: 1S1E  1396
L21: 1W     953
L12: 1N2E   802
L12: 1N1E   790
L21: 2S     629
L24: 2W     628
L12: 1S2E   602

With the possible exception of L24:2W, I'm pretty sure that none of those can be bettered. All other rooms can be done in less than 600 (although if you want to get to the stairs L15:1N3W takes about 709 and L15:3W takes 665)


[Edited by Rabscuttle at Local Time:01-16-2005 at 08:20 AM: wasn't counting mimic moves in L15:3W]


[Edited by Rabscuttle at Local Time:01-17-2005 at 11:59 AM: splelling]
01-16-2005 at 05:38 AM
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Rabscuttle
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icon Re: Move count extremes in KDD (+1)  
Just had a quick look at the other end of the scale. I wouldn't be surprised if I missed a room or two, but the movecounts are probably optimised.

L11: 1S2E  9
L18: 2N1E  13
L4:  1N1E  15
L11: 1S1E  15
L11: 2E    20
L18: 2N3E  20
L3:  1S    23
L5:  1N    29
L2:  2S2E  30


03-27-2005 at 08:54 AM
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