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Update:

A new version containing many fixes for trivial rooms has been released! Now you can play these rooms as they were intended.

This is the last new version (hopefully) for 1.6, which contains a large number of changes, most of them for trivial rooms and bugs. You do not need to update, but I would recommend it, especially if you want to play the fixed rooms as they should have been originally.

The list of fixes can be found here.

Notes

After about 14 months of development (and about another 4-6 being tested by the forum), Bavato's Dungeon is complete and ready to play. The hold, however, is not the only component of Bavato's Dungeon, for there is a storyline and a credits list, both of which will be in this thread, and also in an attachment for people who would prefer to download the files. I would recommend taking a little time to read this storyline, so you can get a better idea about what the idea behind Bavato's Dungeon is all about (and possible future sequels), although knowledge of the story is not crucial to completing the hold.

If you have an issue with a bug, trivial solution or anything else you want to say about the hold, then feedback is certainly welcome either here, or by e-mailing me, if you so wish.

To conclude, enjoy Bavato's Dungeon!

The Date

28th Quarsuary, 144 B.D.

Location and Description

The story and dungeon are both set in King Bavato’s Dungeon, which is located in the town of Bavatolia, about 40 miles north of Dugandy, at the foot of the Dugandish Moutains. Bavatolia lies on a large, gently sloped hill, about 10 miles in diameter, elevated to about 150 metres above the lowlands at its highest point. It is a fairly isolated town, for it is blocked by the impassable mountains to the south and to the north by a giant forest 70 miles long and 50 miles wide, thus it is unknown to most of the major towns and cities nearby and its existence has not yet been recorded in Mellenfral. However, in spite of the poor communication links, Bavatolia is a relatively advanced town, for it is rich in resources, mainly due to the presence of the mountains, which provide abundant supplies of building materials and precious minerals, and which also provide abundant rainfall for the numerous farms in the area. The proximity of the town to the large forest, however, has forced the inhabitants to erect a large and very thick wall around the town perimeter, which is guarded mainly at the north end against incursions of monsters from the forest that periodically attack the town. Due to these attacks, most of the townsfolk live to the south of the town or in the centre, but the castle was instead built at the north end of the hill, which allows it to help guard the northern perimeter, and avoid the Onsuary floodwaters that occur each year.

The Story

Tolbus Grobbler, a famous dungeon exterminator of Bavatolia, previously having cleaned out the dungeons of some of the nearby towns and protected them from invasions of monsters, was asked by King Bavato to give his dungeon a good clean out. "It's full of really unpleasant monsters," King Bavato told him. "None of my guards can even go down very far without being attacked, and almost all the prisoners have been eaten. We're even hearing things banging and scraping on the sealed door, but no-one has dared to open it since the last surviving guard escaped to see what it is in case whatever it is rushes out and infests the palace. We're really desperate - Your qualifications are the best I've ever seen - stainless record for all your past jobs – and so we need your help. I'll pay you double the usual fee - 24,000 Greckles for the whole job, that's 3000 for each of the 8 levels, if you clean it out properly and protect us from the vermin."

Tolbus was very tempted by the promise of such a huge reward, pondered over it for a while, and decided to accept, so he signed the contract the next day.

However, the resident builder, a man of 25, also wanted Tolbus to do something else for him...

As Tolbus, now fully equipped for six weeks underground, walked through the palace to get to the dungeon entrance, the builder caught sight of him and called from a side corridor, beckoning him to follow. Tolbus, intrigued, followed him, and was led to a small room in a quiet part of the palace.

"What do you want?" Tolbus asked.

"Listen carefully to me," said the builder. "There is something I want you to do for me when you're down there. Please - it's very important to me, and probably also very important to solving the problem of why Bavato’s Dungeon was invaded."

"What is it?" asked Tolbus.

"Five years ago, King Bavato came to power in this kingdom, and ordered the building of his castle to replace the previous one. Because he was in a hurry, he ordered the building of the dungeon to be carried out at the same time as the palace building, so he hired two sets of builders and two architects - one to build the castle, and the other the dungeon. I was part of the dungeon building team, but since I was just a builder's apprentice at the time, being very new to the trade, and not an initiate into the Dungeon Architects’ Association yet, my contract only allowed me to help with the first three levels, and no more. Once my contract finished after a month, I was allowed to wait for the rest of the builders to finish, as my father was working with them, so I stayed at the palace. The team on the dungeon worked steadily for two months, keeping in good contact with us at the surface, until they had got to level 8, the last one. I was waiting at the surface for the report, which came every two days now, as the dungeon was very deep, but it did not come. Reassuring myself, I thought that the message was just late, as it had been before, and came back the next day. The report still had not come back. I waited for a week, checking every day to see if any message had come through, but the messenger had not returned. By now I was very worried and scared for the team and my father, so I asked the king to send down another messenger to see what happened. He was worried too, but he could not find anybody brave enough to go down to look for the lost builders. Since even his guards were frightened, he couldn’t send them down either, so he eventually dropped the matter quietly. I was so upset at this that I begged him to reconsider and try again, and when he refused, I threatened to report this to the Dungeon Architects’ Association. He told me to be quiet, and warned that if I tried to cause trouble, I would be thrown into his dungeon for life. He then dismissed me. I kept my promise because of fear of King Bavato, and because I couldn’t tell the DAA anyway, since the most important rule is never to reveal the secrets of the Architect who built the dungeon, whatever happens to him. I soon quit the initiation process, since I was frightened that what happened at King Bavato’s Dungeon could also happen to me once I became part of the DAA. I also feared that I would have had to keep even more of these types of secrets, since if I became a member, I would never be able to leave or reveal anything that I learned.

After this, I completed several projects and jobs above ground over the next few years, never mentioning anything to anyone about what had happened, and quickly became quite a famous and wealthy builder. I then applied to King Bavato to be his resident builder, since the previous one had just died, in the hope that I could secretly find out what had happened to the lost building team. I never dared to ask anyone directly, and could find nothing out from the old notes, letters and parchments I found.

So this is what I want you to do:

I want you to find out exactly what happened to the team, and when you return, to tell me exactly what you found down there, so I can solve this mystery. I think you should also try to find the source of the monsters too. A rumour has been handed down in the building trade that there is some sort of organisation somehow filling dungeons all over the Eighth with monsters. We have no idea about what it is, or where it is located, but we suspect that it is deep beneath the ground, since this is the only logical way that monsters could infiltrate dungeons."

Tolbus paused after this to think over what he had just heard. "But why didn't the soldiers find out what happened? Surely they went down there too later on?" asked Tolbus after a short pause.

"No. Only the first three levels were ever in use by the king - A guard had heard a strange, but unpleasant noise coming from the stairs to level four when he got there and this scared the rest of them so much that they made the king have it sealed off, so it was never explored below level three. I think, however, that the seal has been broken, as the guards from level three that escaped reported that the monsters were coming from the general direction of the seal, so it looks like the infestation definitely came from below."

"I see." said Tolbus, feeling uneasy.

"I can only do one more thing for you. I will give you the original maps the architect made for the eight levels, which I copied secretly from the originals when he left them lying out. I will also give you the notes that I made on them to help you find your way around down there. They are accurate up to level seven, but I'm not sure if eight was completed entirely. Apart from that, I wish you good luck, Tolbus - I hope you return safely, and that you discover the secret of the lost team and the monster invasion for me."

"OK," said Tolbus, "I'll do it."

Tolbus then made his way to the dungeon entrance, where a scared king and a huge escort of guards was waiting. The king wished him good luck, and the heavy door slowly creaked open. As soon as Tolbus had walked through the door, however, it slammed shut immediately.

"We're counting on you now, Tolbus," called the king from the other side. "Don't fail us!"

Ending

For those who've finished the hold, but have been caught by the reset bug in L14, here's the ending text (it's basically an introduction to an intended sequel for DROD 2.0).



Not much of an ending, I admit, but there will be another hold to come after this one.

agaricus5
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1838
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged

File: Bavato's Dungeon Story and Credits.zip (11.7 KB)
Downloaded 230 times.
License: Other
From: Unspecified

Building this hold was a mammoth project. Although I built most of the hold’s contents, this alone only probably makes up about half the work put in to finish the hold. The rest consisted of testing and bug–finding, almost all of which was done by other people, all voluntarily testing the hold and spending their time to help me improve it and fix it many times faster and more efficiently than I could have done if I did it all myself. So, this credits list is a tribute to all these people who helped me to bring the hold to completion and finally, after more than a year, finish it. Apologies if it does sound sort of overdone, but I can't express the true gratitude I have to all of you who have helped me.

Early Alpha Testing (Versions 3 and 4)

The hold’s first few months were mostly spent in the alpha stage, in which time I was building the hold’s rooms in a rather haphazard way, since, of course, this was my first ever project, and so I wasn’t very good at creating rooms, and even worse at debugging them. However, my calls for help were answered by a good number of people, all of which found something buggy or something that could be improved with the hold, which helped me to improve it in ways that I could never have done by myself. In particular, the people who helped test my hold very early on had to put up with a lot of bugs and updates in the hold, since it was not Anyone Edit, and I didn’t playtest rooms very well. All these people deserve a mention for being so tolerant of me and my poor debugging and play–testing skills, and are listed below:

Atch
Eytanz
Krammer
Oneiromancer
Scott
Snicker
StuartK
Watcher
Zex20913
Zmann

Late Alpha Testing (Versions 5 and 6)

The hold soon went into periods of inactivity soon after, both on the building front and the testing front, which frustrated me at first, but with the help of a few forum members, I learned to accept that this sort of delay is a consequence of trying to build a difficult and long hold. In this period of time, I continued to get help from many people, who again helped me to improve and fix problems with the hold. These people also deserve a mention for helping me continue building the hold, for without the help I received, I probably would have just stopped working on it, since I was beginning to run out of ideas:

Avon
Bandit1200
Eytanz
Gds
Joker5
Terrafire
The_Red_Hawk
Watcher

Force Arrow Maze Testing (L12)

One of the most time consuming levels to build was the Force Arrow Maze, originally Level 5, now moved to Level 12. The Force Arrow maze was actually one of the first levels I began to build, but since it took me nearly 2 months to finish, it ended up being placed in level 5 when I first released it. It, however, was full of bugs. Although it had a solution, there were all sorts of dead–ends, loops and trivial solutions inside it, all of which meant that it really needed debugging before it could be released properly. It was a giant task, for the maze occupied 26 rooms, but with the help of two people, gds and bandit1200, who helped me find some of the problems, I managed to fix it completely.

Pre–beta Reshuffling

With the alpha testing mostly over, for I had run out of room ideas, I decided that the haphazard way that rooms had just been dropped in levels detracted from the hold very much, as gds pointed out to me, and that therefore, the hold needed reorganising. So, I entirely re–ordered the hold’s rooms and levels to re–order them in a more logical difficulty gradient, and made the level layouts more aesthetically pleasing. Organizing the hold was rather a tiring task, since I needed to catalogue each separate room before I could do anything, but Watcher helped me to do this.

Beta Testing

With the hold reshuffled, it was time to start the beta. Although the amount of help before I announced my intentions of going into beta was very low, as soon as I began asking for help, the response suddenly increased greatly. By the time I started, I had five testers offering to help me, although during the testing period, only three of them actually sent me any comments about the hold. However, in spite of this, quite a significant number of bugs and a large number of improvements were found and suggested by these testers:

Gamer_extreme_101
Mikko
Sebhaque

Storyline

The storyline behind Bavato’s Dungeon also needed correcting and checking, and this was done by the master of the Eighth himself, Erik, who helped me correct it and keep it consistent with the rest of the Eighth.

Special Thanks

However, there are a few people who I would like to mention specially for the essential help that they gave me during the duration of this project. Without these people’s help, I would never have gotten this far with the hold, nor would it be as complete as it is now, and so I am extremely grateful for it:

Eytanz and Oneiromancer, who as well as testing the hold, helped me to understand the value of making the hold more player–friendly through careful positioning of checkpoints and overcoming the aversion to Anyone–Edit testing versions. Without this advice, I probably would not have had as much help testing as I did.

Gds, who tested almost all of the hold as it was just before I entered the reshuffling stage. This basically gave me most of the information I needed to remake the hold completely. Without this, I would probably still be in alpha.

Mikko, who playtested most of the hold during the beta testing, thus doing most of the testing work for me, and leaving me free to fixing the complex bugs that he found for me. Thanks to the amount of testing he did for me, it allowed me to have enough time to fix the hold completely in time for the original deadline to releasing the hold.

Mike Rimer, who managed to salvage my hold and its contents several times when I managed to corrupt my version of DROD. Without his help recovering my data, I would have lost many months of work, and so probably would have given up making the hold.

Attached to the post are the credits and storyline in a zip file.

[Edited by agaricus5 on 08-02-2004 at 11:17 PM GMT]

____________________________
Resident Medic/Mycologist

agaricus5
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1838
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged

Edit: This, I declare, is a very good piece of evidence to show my inexperience at hold building and releasing, along with a lack of patience. So, I think this message no longer applies.

Well, it sounds like a bit of a moan, but I suppose I've got to ask about it anyway at some time, since I am planning another hold, and need to learn from Bavato's Dungeon to make the next one better.

I just looked at the rating for this hold, and, although I was expecting that the initial high value would fall by some amount, I was surprised that it fell by as much as it did.

First, the rating fell to 7.3, meaning that someone voted for a fun rating of around 2-5, or two voted 6, which is fairly low.

Second, the difficulty fell to 7.5, which means that someone voted for around 3.5-6, or two people voted 6.5 and 7, which for the effort I put in to make it difficult, seems like a poor return.

Of course, I understand that a rating is relative, and that what someone thinks is only one part of the whole set of opinions, but with the possible combination of fun 2, difficulty 3, or even fun 6, difficulty 7/7.5 by two people, seems to me to be a warning bell that there is something about the hold that somebody (or even several people) out there fervently dislike. [It is even possible that the original rating went down too, making it 3 people rather discontented with it, although I hope not.]

So, in order that I don't make the same mistake again, and gain such a relatively poor return for all the effort I put in, as well as disappointing the people who played this and were expecting something better, I'd like to ask exactly what it was that detracted from the quality of the hold and its contents.

I don't mind whatever criticism you have for me, as long as it is legitimate, but I'd like to know what it was that made the hold quality so disappointingly poor.

Edit: I make the assumption, of course, that you actually finished the hold. I can't think how many people could have actually done this in only 13 days, (except beta testers), but I look from a serious viewpoint that takes this assumption as true.

[Edited by agaricus5 at Local Time:10-27-2004 at 02:09 PM]

[Edited by agaricus5 at Local Time:10-27-2004 at 06:14 PM]

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Resident Medic/Mycologist

jjohn7418
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 161
Registered: 08-24-2003
IP: Logged

I haven't finished this hold yet. I think it's a great hold so far, and I'm only on level 2. I'm stuck in a room now, as a matter of fact. I'm on level 2, in 1S and I can't seem to figure out how to get the queen in the middle. I can get all of the little rooms around it, but can't seem to get the queen. I think I might be playing this at the wrong time of day. I always seem to be playing around midnight, and I don't think I'm thinking too clearly.

Can someone please help with a hint?

Thanks,
Jim J.
Dazed and confused.

____________________________
"Know what I mean? Know what I mean? Nudge, nudge! Know what I mean? Say no more!" - Monty Python

agaricus5
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1838
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged

You might find this thread useful:

http://www.drod.net/forum/viewtopic.php?TopicID=3354.

____________________________
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eytanz
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2708
Registered: 02-05-2003
IP: Logged

agaricus5 wrote:
Edit: I make the assumption, of course, that you actually finished the hold. I can't think how many people could have actually done this in only 13 days, (except beta testers), but I look from a serious viewpoint that takes this assumption as true.

[Edited by agaricus5 on 08-14-2004 at 11:11 PM GMT]

I think therein lies a bit of your problem. Bavato's is an intimidating dungeon - even level 1 is a real challenge to experienced players, and it just gets harder after that (I assume - I'm still just barely into it). So, players may play a bit, get frustrated, and decide to stop playing, and maybe rate you lower because of that.

I'm sure that over time, as people actually complete the hold and/or get deep enough to appreciate its full extent, the score will go up again. I'm not, however, sure you'll ever get much useful feedback now that testing is over, except maybe short reviews - providing detailed feedback to a hold this size is a task as daunting as playing through it.

____________________________
I got my avatar back! Yay!

rothro
Level: Delver

Rank Points: 46
Registered: 06-29-2004
IP: Logged

Hi,

I must say that this hold so far is exactly the kind of
challenge I have been looking for. There are a lot of
excellent holds out there, but after having completed
most, I was looking for a real challenge. Your hold
provides that. I am now in level 4 and full of adrenalin

If you are looking for feedback, I gave it a 10 for
challenge, only because there is no 11. I have not
finished it yet, but even if the lower levels are just
a single roach, tied at feet and feelers in the middle
of a large empty space, it is the hardest hold I've
played so far. The fun rating for these first 4 levels
is high (I love a challenge), we'll see how the rest goes.
Because there are a few things that can make me stop
playing a hold, even if it is otherwise excellent:

- Rooms that both tedious and non-obvious, like tar over
walls/pits/doors (unless you give a glimpse of the
layout before the first growth). I just don't like to
know that I have to do a tedious section only to find
a random choice before me, with a wrong decision having
to do it again and again... Its doable, but it kills the
fun completely.

- Mazes that span more than 2-3 rooms a la level 13 of Dugans.
The only challenge there is to get a screendump of all rooms
and then plan it with paper and pencil - no fun at all.

- Exits to already solved rooms that require a lengthy trapdoor
puzzle to be completed afresh if revisited.

All these in small doses are annoying, but I'll get through
them. Large doses/repeat "offences" usually make me look for
other things to do. So I hope you'll have avoided
them (As someone who clearly likes his challenges the way
you do, I have no doubt you will have stayed clear of these,
they were more mentioned as feedback what to avoid in your
next project )

So congratulations on a great hold, I'll play that for a
while yet!

Cheers,
Rothro

agaricus5
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1838
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged

rothro wrote:
I must say that this hold so far is exactly the kind of
challenge I have been looking for. There are a lot of
excellent holds out there, but after having completed
most, I was looking for a real challenge. Your hold
provides that. I am now in level 4 and full of adrenalin

That's very encouraging to hear. Glad you are enjoying it,

The fun rating for these first 4 levels
is high (I love a challenge), we'll see how the rest goes.
Because there are a few things that can make me stop
playing a hold, even if it is otherwise excellent:

I'm still with you...

rothro wrote:
- Rooms that both tedious and non-obvious, like tar over
walls/pits/doors (unless you give a glimpse of the
layout before the first growth). I just don't like to
know that I have to do a tedious section only to find
a random choice before me, with a wrong decision having
to do it again and again... Its doable, but it kills the
fun completely.

I assure you, then that L2 1S 1E is the only room with this as the theme. No other room "hides" anything using tar, except L10 2S 2E, in which it is only the top-right corner affected, and not by very much.

- Mazes that span more than 2-3 rooms a la level 13 of Dugans.
The only challenge there is to get a screendump of all rooms
and then plan it with paper and pencil - no fun at all.

Ah. There you have a problem.

L12 is just that (Go take a look at the Insert Room DROD Image).

- Exits to already solved rooms that require a lengthy trapdoor puzzle to be completed afresh if revisited.

I have, on the good advice of many, tried to de-linearize most of the levels, so rooms do not often need to be completed in any arbitrary order. That sort of thing is also what I don't tend to like (I had to playtest this too during its creation), and think that that sort of thing has been mostly avoided.

All these in small doses are annoying, but I'll get through
them. Large doses/repeat "offences" usually make me look for
other things to do. So I hope you'll have avoided
them (As someone who clearly likes his challenges the way
you do, I have no doubt you will have stayed clear of these,
they were more mentioned as feedback what to avoid in your
next project )

I certainly will take the ideas into account, although I may make more maze(s) in future. I will make sure that there is a bypass, so that people who want to skip it can do so.

So... I'm glad you are enjoying it. Hopefully the things you have mentioned won't crop up anywhere (except, of course, L12) in the hold.

____________________________
Resident Medic/Mycologist

rothro
Level: Delver

Rank Points: 46
Registered: 06-29-2004
IP: Logged

Hi,

ok, I've gotten lost in the quotes while editing, so no quotes
here, the post is right above it.

I'll happily give your level 12 the benefit of the doubt until
I've played it a while. I just tend to give up on these easier
due to lack of motivation.

The L2 1S1E was one I quite enjoyed. I was stuck for about 2
days, but it was always clear to me what needed to be done, it
just took a while to finally figure out the technique.


No, its the ones where you have a 20x20 square of tar with baby
spawnspots up the gazoo and 2-wide passages under the tar that
become impassable at a single wrong swipe (only you find out that
you had messed it up 10 spawncycles later), repeat, repeat....
that become tiresome really quickly.

If there is a clear geometry to the thing, or a mimic second half
maze, or the same maze layout as in the three rooms before,
getting progressively more populated and challenging, one can
pull it off. But more often than not, these kinds of rooms tend
to be less popular with me. It really all depends on the
circumstances, the theme, the addiction the hold has created so
far, etc.

So I guess its as always up to the designer to use your his
judgement, and risk not pleasing everyone. There might be people
out there who absolutely adore these whole-level mazes...

Anyway, back to these vaults and their exquisite pain


Cheers,
Rothro

And no, mycology is not so high on my list as myrmacology.

____________________________
And god spake unto me "Be merry and glad in your heart, for it could be much worse!"
And I was merry and glad in my heart and it got worse!

agaricus5
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1838
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged

On a slightly unrelated topic, there are three small bugs in the hold that I just noticed:

L5 4E - You don't technically need to complete the room in the harder way I intended. The passage to the Tar Mother chamber has not got a force arrow on it (I must have forgotten to put one there), so you can kill the mother before the tar babies.

L12 Entrance - There is a blank scroll there, which is a relic from older versions of the level, which I forgot to remove.

L12 1W - With at least 5 different versions of the maze, one bug has not been fixed, although I noted it down. There is a un-leavable loop in the areas (17, 15) to (24, 21) plus (25, 22) to (32, 29). Unfortunately, the arrow at (22, 17) faces North instead of South.

None of these bugs are serious - the rooms are still solvable, although the L12 1W one might annoy you a bit if you get stuck there.

If anyone else notices any more L12 bugs (I haven't spotted any others yet, but there could be some), or indeed anything else that looks a bit buggy or un-intended, then please tell me about it.

Edit:

I'd like to update the hold, now that these things have been fixed, but I'm not sure if the 1.6.6 Patch can take updating the hold without causing people to lose their progress.

I'll attach it here for now.

If anyone wants to upgrade their copy (for now), then copy all your .dats and put them in another folder somewhere safe. First upgrade DROD to 1.6.6, or you may not get the intended result, and then upgrade your B.D, and check to see if all your progress is saved.

If yes, please post back to inform me about it, and then I'll update it on the holds section.

If no, then I'd advise recopying your new dats with your old copied ones to regain your lost data, unless you only lose data for rooms that have changed. Then post back here to tell me, so I don't update the hold at the top.

[Edited by agaricus5 on 08-17-2004 at 01:17 PM GMT]

Re-edit - I'm just going to update the hold at the top. I'll just warn anyone who has the hold that upgrading will lose saved data, so upgrading should only be done when just starting a level.

Hopefully there won't be any more problems

[Edited by agaricus5 on 08-17-2004 at 02:33 PM GMT]

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Doom
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 3303
Registered: 07-05-2004
IP: Logged

L5 4E - You don't technically need to complete the room in the harder way I intended. The passage to the Tar Mother chamber has not got a force arrow on it (I must have forgotten to put one there), so you can kill the mother before the tar babies

I noticed that L5 bug too. (I'm in L6 now) I've also noticed a few other bugs and some tricks that made some rooms easier than they should be. Should I PM to you about them or do I post here?

agaricus5
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1838
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged

Post here, then if you want, try out the upgrade in the above post. It doesn't matter if the hold has not been re-updated, since this is only an experiment to see if B.D. can be updated safely.

____________________________
Resident Medic/Mycologist

Doom
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 3303
Registered: 07-05-2004
IP: Logged

You asked for it.

L2: 1S
It's possible to use wraithwings instead of goblins. It makes the room a little easier.

L4: 3E
You can lead the snake to the first loop, go around it clockwise and close the door. -> Snake goes back to start and you can clear the rest of the room easily.

L4: 1N
After you reach the room with eyes and wraithwings you can leave one wraithwing alive and kill a few snakes with it a lot easier...

That's all so far.

agaricus5
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1838
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged

Doom wrote:
You asked for it.

L2: 1S
It's possible to use wraithwings instead of goblins. It makes the room a little easier.

I see. It's a sort of trivial thing, but since it is only L2, and you still need to use some goblins anyway, it's not a problem. I won't change anything.

L4: 3E
You can lead the snake to the first loop, go around it clockwise and close the door. -> Snake goes back to start and you can clear the rest of the room easily.

Right. I see. I think I can fix that easily.

L4: 1N
After you reach the room with eyes and wraithwings you can leave one wraithwing alive and kill a few snakes with it a lot easier...

That's clever. I think I'll just remove the Wraithwings.

That's all so far.

I see. Okay. Hopefully there aren't any more trivial bugs, although I would suspect that there probably will be.

I'll update as soon as I get confirmation from someone that upgrading doesn't cause any data loss.

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agaricus5
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1838
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged

Never mind. I'm going to upgrade it now.

Anyone playing Bavato's Dungeon already does not need the update (4 rooms are easier than intended with the old version), although it fixes 3 trivial bugs, and two cosmetic/layout bugs, and, of course, lets the affected rooms challenge you in the way they should have.

You may lose saved data, so I'd advise only upgrading when you reach a new level.

[Edited by agaricus5 on 08-17-2004 at 02:48 PM GMT]

[Edited by agaricus5 on 08-17-2004 at 02:50 PM GMT]

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KevG
Level: Smiter

Rank Points: 333
Registered: 08-16-2004
IP: Logged

Just tried upgrading to see what would happen. For those like me who didn't know, after you upgrade you'll be able to start on the same level you were currently working on; but all data for previous levels will be gone. Even importing a previouly saved player over the upgrade will result in all solved levels reverting to completely unsolved. If you just want to get through the dungeon, this isn't a problem. Of course for those of just starting level 2, it didn't really matter anyway.

Stefan
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2119
Registered: 05-25-2004
IP: Logged

Ok, here are some trivial solutions and unexpectedly easy rooms I've found:

L4:1W This room seemed too easy. You are allowed to make lots of errors while manouvering the goblin (I made at least 5 mistakes), and you still have to wait for the serpent at the end (for about 20 turns).
L4:2E
L4:3E If you enter the third loop and hit the orb, then the door closes behind you, leaving you safe to watch the serpent die (the intended solution was to take it all the way, right?).
L6:1N4E This seemed too easy.
L6:1S1E I didn't need all invisibility potions (I left two of them unused).
L7:1N1E The efficiency wasn't very tight here, I still had about 6 spawn cycles to spare. (It wasn't trivial, but it was easier than what I had expected)
L7:1S4E You only need one goblin, but I think that's intentional (?)

I'm currently on Level 7, with two rooms left (2S2E & 2S3E). Great hold so far! Just the right difficulty (very hard)!

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0.099³

agaricus5
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1838
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged

*Groan*

Are you trying to ruin all my hard work completely?

Stefan wrote:
L4:1W This room seemed too easy. You are allowed to make lots of errors while manouvering the goblin (I made at least 5 mistakes), and you still have to wait for the serpent at the end (for about 20 turns).

That's intentional. If I had made it any tighter, anyone not paying much attention can mess up relatively easily, and with errors being cumulative over checkpoints, it may get frustrating to have to restart the room or restore back a few checkpoints.

L4:2E

Click here to view the secret text

×You can make the wraithwing(s) follow you when going for the serpent(s) (this might be intentional)

Can you make the wraithwing go in front of you to get it to the serpents?

I don't think it is possible.

L4:3E If you enter the third loop and hit the orb, then the door closes behind you, leaving you safe to watch the serpent die (the intended solution was to take it all the way, right?).

That should have been fixed. Have you got the updated version?

L6:1N4E This seemed too easy.

Click here to view the secret text

×Trap the goblin with tar at first, then kill all tar mothers (you don't have to worry about the tar in the SE corner, as it's growth gets restricted by tar babies). The rest is easy.

That's annoying. The goblin part is meant to be easy, because I couldn't find a mechanism that worked well for the intended idea, so I gave up, but you are not supposed to have any tar growths at all.

L6:1S1E I didn't need all invisibility potions (I left two of them unused).

Email me a demo of that to wkchua@ntlworld.com . I'd like to see it for myself. Since this room is hard, though, I may not change it.

L7:1N1E The efficiency wasn't very tight here, I still had about 6 spawn cycles to spare. (It wasn't trivial, but it was easier than what I had expected)

An older version of the room had less, I believe, but it wasn't appreciated much.

I may add a few more tar squares to it.

L7:1S4E You only need one goblin, but I think that's intentional (?)

That's not intentional at all. You need all the goblins.

I'm currently on Level 7, with two rooms left (2S2E & 2S3E). Great hold so far! Just the right difficulty (very hard)!

I'm quite surprised these were not found before. I suppose that I'm too jaded to be a good audience, though.

You're missing out on all the challenges, though, so I'd better update it again.

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agaricus5
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1838
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged

Okay, another update to fix those unsightly bugs.

I am not convinced now that my rooms are trivial-solution proof. So, this may not be the final update.

I am aware that there have been over 180 downloads, and that most of these people are playing a hold with lots of very trivial solutions, so detracting from the challenge of the hold.

Therefore, I must ask that you upgrade if you can. Otherwise, you will not see the affected rooms as I intended them, and the hold will seem lower quality to you as a result. I put quite a lot of effort into it, and don't particularly want it nullified.

Next time, I will employ more beta testers, or failing that, ask one or two of you who are good at trivialising rooms to help me test the hold.

I apologise for the problems, although they are not serious.

[Edited by agaricus5 on 08-17-2004 at 06:46 PM GMT]

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Stefan
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2119
Registered: 05-25-2004
IP: Logged

Serious problem!!!
(this time it looks like I'm going to have to replay (and it doesn't really feel nice after a seven-hour struggle with L7:2S2E & 2S3E) )

There is an unreachable (required) room on level 7!!

The hidden room is unreachable . A single crumbly wall in the right place should do the trick...


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yarnexpress
Level: Goblin
Rank Points: 24
Registered: 12-16-2003
IP: Logged

I'm no DROD expert & I'm only on level 4, but I think this is an excellent hold. I think it's very difficult. I can't understand the low rating unless, as been previously said, some players in frustration have given it a low rating as a sort of revenge.

I have only a minor, and probably personal, criticism. I find controling wraithwings difficult in the extreme. I think there's a bit too much of this concentrated on level 4. I personally like variety within a level, even within a theme. I get discouraged when I enter a room & immediately think "Oh, no not another one!" Although I'm using controlling wws as an example, I get annoyed whenever I'm presented with a long series of similar rooms. My annoyance sometimes reaches the stop playing level. I think I've already done this 3 times so far, I'm sick of it. So the heck with it.

Keep up the good work! I hope you have the stamina to do another hold!

jjohn7418
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 161
Registered: 08-24-2003
IP: Logged

Again I'd like to state that I think it is a great hold. It's difficult for me to get through a lot of these rooms, I'm only starting level 3 now. I'm by far no expert at this yet, I'm still learning how things react and move.

All of you are talking about level 4, 5, 6 and 7, I haven't even been out of the Entrance on level 3 yet. I guess I have a lot of work ahead of me.

Thanks,
Jim

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eytanz
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2708
Registered: 02-05-2003
IP: Logged

Okay, maybe I missed the point of L4 1W, but it seemed totally trivial - I just pulled out the goblin from his chamber from the south, waited for the serpent, killed both, and went after the brain. There was absolutely no danger involved.

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agaricus5
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1838
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged

Stefan wrote:
Serious problem!!!
(this time it looks like I'm going to have to replay (and it doesn't really feel nice after a seven-hour struggle with L7:2S2E & 2S3E) )

There is an unreachable (required) room on level 7!!

The hidden room

Click here to view the secret text

×1N2E

is unreachable . A single crumbly wall in the right place should do the trick...

I'm on a computer in one of my relative's house, so I'm not back yet, but I noticed the problem.

It is serious, I agree, although it was working previously, so something must have been changed very unintentionally.

I apologise. Perhaps the solution should be to reinstate the warp room again, putting it in L1 1W, so that you can skip any levels that you have mostly played already.

Sorry about this. As soon as I get back, I'll put it in and re-release it, so that everyone can benefit from being able to skip L7 and any other hard levels that are too difficult.

With reference to L4 1W, I wasn't aware that that trivial solution was actually possible. There is a door in front of the goblin chamber, correct?

If you could show me a demo, that would be appreciated.

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eytanz
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2708
Registered: 02-05-2003
IP: Logged

In L6 1S2E:



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I got my avatar back! Yay!

Obob
Level: Goblin
Rank Points: 16
Registered: 09-12-2004
IP: Logged

I too am on level 7 of this dungeon, and have been enjoying it quite a bit so far. Has the dungeon been updated yet so that level 7 is solvable? I don't want to start the level until I know that it is, so that I won't have to go back and re-clear the entire level. In my current version, there is no way to get to room 1N 2E (although I'm not sure that this room exists since I have not cleared the rest of the level).

Pinnacle
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1135
Registered: 06-10-2004
IP: Logged

Great hold!
Really hard, though.
Even Level 1 is hard.

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Once (adv.): Enough.
Twice (adv.): Once too often.
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agaricus5
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1838
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged

I am truly sorry about the problems. Hopefully the delay won't have put you off too much from the hold, and that you'll forgive me for not spotting the mistake.

As a compromise, I'm going to reinstate the warp room, as I promised, and sort out the bugs that have crept up again, so anyone who got stuck in L7 can skip to L8, and anyone else who can't do a level can also skip to later levels.

Again, I hope you will be patient - I never realised how buggy such a big hold was going to get.

As soon as I've looked into some of the trivial solutions and checked later levels for a few more, then I'll release it again.

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agaricus5
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1838
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged

The hold has been updated once more.

Everyone stuck on L7, or indeed any other level, can now skip to any other level, except L14, through usage of the reinstated warp room in L1 1W.

The nasty L7 2E bug has been fixed (although anyone who encountered it is probably unlikely to do L7 all over again), as well as a bug in L6 1S 2E, and a removal of an unpleasant section of L8 1S 2E.

I would strongly advise updating. Older versions of the hold are not completable, while I believe that this one is (it may turn out not to be, however, and I will become depressed, should it happen).

Apologies for the delay and bug. I hope this is the last major problem with the hold.

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googa
Level: Moderator

Rank Points: 282
Registered: 09-20-2004
IP: Logged

Hi,
First of all i would thank u guys for this great hold..
Second: i lost my savedgames in the end of level 2,
could anyone atach me a copy here in this page
or email me at googa@zipmail.com.br
THANX A LOT