Announcement: Be excellent to each other.


Caravel Forum : Other Boards : Anything : Are you a believer? (Do you believe in God?)
12
Page 3 of 5
45
New Topic New Poll Post Reply
Do you believe in God?
Yes
No
I don't know
I believe in multiple gods
Note: Viewing results forfeits your right to vote.
Poster Message
Blondbeard
Level: Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 1450
Registered: 03-31-2005
IP: Logged
icon Re: Are you a believer? (+1)  
quote:
Penwielder wrote:
Yes, in case anyone was wondering, this does mean that I believe that some of you* many people, sadly, will go to hell, and I know this may anger some of you. Let me state clearly, though, that one's eternal destiny has nothing to do with whether or not (s)he is a good person.

Well... I do have a slight problem with people suporting a dude that wants to torture me forever, just for not believing in him, and telling him how great he is. How can you claim he is good, if you believe he will let me go to hell?

I find that kind of attitude rather offensive.

____________________________
I would write some kind of signature if I wasn't so lazy. Oh, and right now I have a DROD RPG Let's Play plus a Let's Play of Troshian Tower going on :-)

[Last edited by Blondbeard at 04-05-2011 01:09 PM]
04-05-2011 at 01:06 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts High Scores This architect's holds Quote Reply
Snacko
Level: Smiter
Avatar
Rank Points: 446
Registered: 06-08-2006
IP: Logged
icon Re: Are you a believer? (0)  
Not trying to answer for Ratman, but it seems like most believers believe that the existence of god has not been proved-beyond-any-doubt. It is belief, not knowledge. Power through faith.

____________________________
Director of the Department of Orderly Disruptions
04-05-2011 at 02:48 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Show all user's posts High Scores Quote Reply
Rheb
Level: Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 1205
Registered: 08-04-2006
IP: Logged
icon Re: Are you a believer? (0)  
This thread was kind of fun and interesting when it was about how you should look at things that is believed but not proven, how to troll and how to tell if someone is homeschooled via the internet.

Seeing people take the bible literally makes me sad :?

____________________________
Voligner is my very own DROD-like game. Please check it out!
04-05-2011 at 05:59 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Show all user's posts High Scores This architect's holds Quote Reply
hyperme
Level: Smiter
Avatar
Rank Points: 449
Registered: 06-23-2006
IP: Logged
icon Re: Are you a believer? (0)  
Did somebody say Evolution Debate?

Go look up Richard Lenski. Guy did a 20 year experiment with bacteria(E. Coli) in closed environments*. Some bacteria mutated to live better in the environments, and outperformed the non-mutants. Which is evolution. Before anyone goes on about 'micro' and 'macro' evolution, 'macro' evolution is basically the end result of lots of 'micro' evolution.

Also, if the universe needs a created, why doesn't God? Surely He/She/It would need a source. Yeah. That argument is pretty silly.

*Not, however, a closed system, since the only one of those is the universe.

Oh, and don't go eating shellfish, you'll burn for it.

____________________________
[Insert witty comment here]
Qzvlkx?
04-05-2011 at 06:05 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts High Scores This architect's holds Quote Reply
Rat Man
Level: Master Delver
Avatar
Rank Points: 121
Registered: 07-10-2010
IP: Logged
icon Re: Are you a believer? (0)  
Jatopian, I say "Live with it" lightheartedly all the time, with no intention of spoiling for a fight. Live with it. If evolution is real, how do you explain species that depend on each other? The technology that is used to determine the age of things is based on calculations made by people who already believed the world was billions of years old. I didn't mean to say that Darwin denouncing evolution was evidence that it wasn't real, nor do I remember where I found that information. Nobody will find it "Scary" that Darwin didn't denounce evolution, Schik. We're not afraid of science. The explanation of things does not always come back to "The Lord said it so it must be true" in religion. I have heard people say that before, but that's the equivalent of saying "Lost of scientists believe it nowadays so it must be true." There is an explanation for everything, and most religious people, or at least most Christians, will try to explain things. And to stop whoever it is the first to use the word "try" against me, scientist can't explain everything and many scientists' opinions differ from each other; this is no more true, if not less, of people of faith.

NiroZ, I do believe in God on faith; however, I greatly doubt you truly understand what faith actually is. I do not try to, nor do I think I can, prove His existence, but I provide evidence and reasons why it's not some stupid belief, as this is what atheists will often insist upon and set up for. I don't think I've made my point effectively for that last statement; I can't really think of the exact words for what I really mean.

____________________________
I'M IN SPACE!
Click here to view the secret text

04-05-2011 at 07:05 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Show all user's posts Quote Reply
Tahnan
Level: Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 2436
Registered: 11-14-2005
IP: Logged
icon Re: Are you a believer? (+1)  
quote:
Rat Man wrote:
Jatopian, I say "Live with it" lightheartedly all the time, with no intention of spoiling for a fight. Live with it.
Perhaps you're not clear on how confrontational and dismissive that sounds over the Internet. Maybe people who know you well know that you don't mean to start a fight by saying it, or maybe your tone makes it clear when you say it out loud, but that's not going to come through in typing.

quote:
The explanation of things does not always come back to "The Lord said it so it must be true" in religion. I have heard people say that before, but that's the equivalent of saying "Lost of scientists believe it nowadays so it must be true." There is an explanation for everything, and most religious people, or at least most Christians, will try to explain things.
Yup. And evolution is a really good explanation. Whereas with creationism...the explanation of things may not always have to come back to "the Lord said it so it must be true", but to the best of my understanding, that's the specific claim being made in creationism. (That is, the answer to the question "Why are things the way they are?" is answered by saying "Because the 'intelligent designer' designed them that way.) That's why many Christians do believe in evolution.
04-05-2011 at 07:16 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts High Scores This architect's holds Quote Reply
Rat Man
Level: Master Delver
Avatar
Rank Points: 121
Registered: 07-10-2010
IP: Logged
icon Re: Are you a believer? (0)  
Evolution is a poor explanation full of holes. Saying "Because the Intelligent Designer made it that way" is as stupid explanation. It's obvious that when creationists ask why things are the way they are, they mean why did the Intelligent Designer design it that way? "Because the Intelligent Designer designed it that way" is like an atheist saying "Because it just naturally formed like that." Exact same thing, both stupid, neither the accepted answer. And I don't see why the heck that would be the reason many Christians do believe in evolution. Anyway, evolution can't be true in Christianity, because of Adam and Eve. They did not evolve out of monkeys.

____________________________
I'M IN SPACE!
Click here to view the secret text

04-05-2011 at 07:38 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Show all user's posts Quote Reply
The spitemaster
Level: Smiter
Avatar
Rank Points: 343
Registered: 06-09-2005
IP: Logged
icon Re: Are you a believer? (0)  
That is the wrong way to look at it. "The Lord said so"

Realistically to only difference between the two camps is assumptions:
There is nothing that is outside of our observations.
There are things that are unobservable.

Basically, is the supernatural a part of what is possible or not. From the difference of those two viewpoints spawn Creationism and Evolution. Besides in the issue of the beginning, no one was there. (Obviously, hence Beginning) But that is all that science is based on. Observation. Repetition. Testing. How can you test something that happened once and will not again? Most of evolution is included in this time frame. Recorded history is not long enough to test any of these theories. It is all based on extrapolation. For that case so is creationism. It's not as if new creatures were popping into existence. (I mean something that is something that you can't tell whose it's parents were. Still applies to evolution.) You can't test it either. Meaning that both cases are Meta-physics falling outside normal science.

Now just because Creationism relies on their recorded history does not make it more or less reliable that Evolutionists. And just because their theory hasn't changed doesn't make it more or less either. All you can do is gather supporting evidence.

Lastly, you can't judge either theory with the assumptions of the other. Then both sides will 'prove' the other wrong.

____________________________
Last night upon a stair
I met a man that wasn't there
He wasn't there again today
I wish that man would stay away
04-05-2011 at 07:53 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Visit Homepage Show all user's posts This architect's holds Quote Reply
The spitemaster
Level: Smiter
Avatar
Rank Points: 343
Registered: 06-09-2005
IP: Logged
icon Re: Are you a believer? (0)  
To clarify on "Supernatural":

Requires that there is another conscious being that is not directly observable.
Any tests (With said being) will not be repeatable.
Doing something over and over will not necessarily produce the same result.

If you wish to judge Creationism on the basis of their science, you need to use this assumption.

____________________________
Last night upon a stair
I met a man that wasn't there
He wasn't there again today
I wish that man would stay away
04-05-2011 at 08:02 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Visit Homepage Show all user's posts This architect's holds Quote Reply
Rat Man
Level: Master Delver
Avatar
Rank Points: 121
Registered: 07-10-2010
IP: Logged
icon Re: Are you a believer? (0)  
I agree with The Spitemaster, especially on the point that nothing being replaced by a new theory doesn't make it wrong. Have you considered, Tahnan, the other side of it? We believe that it was never replaced with a new explanation because it was true from the beginning. Oh, and Hyperme, the existence of micro-evolution doesn't prove the statement that macro evolution is just the end result, therefor any arguments about micro and macro are no less valid than they were before. (not to say that they are or are not valid)

____________________________
I'M IN SPACE!
Click here to view the secret text

04-05-2011 at 08:29 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Show all user's posts Quote Reply
Lamkin
Level: Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 581
Registered: 08-17-2008
IP: Logged
icon Re: Are you a believer? (+12)  
quote:
Rat Man wrote:
I managed to talk [my mom] into letting me on [the forum] as long as my dad checked it out and it was okay. And he said "It's fine! All they're talking about is these games!"

Perhaps it's time for your dad to check it out again.
04-05-2011 at 08:30 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts Quote Reply
Rat Man
Level: Master Delver
Avatar
Rank Points: 121
Registered: 07-10-2010
IP: Logged
icon Re: Are you a believer? (0)  
Good point. I'll tell them about this.

____________________________
I'M IN SPACE!
Click here to view the secret text


[Last edited by Rat Man at 04-05-2011 08:34 PM]
04-05-2011 at 08:34 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Show all user's posts Quote Reply
Blondbeard
Level: Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 1450
Registered: 03-31-2005
IP: Logged
icon Re: Are you a believer? (0)  
quote:
The spitemaster wrote:
Lastly, you can't judge either theory with the assumptions of the other. Then both sides will 'prove' the other wrong.

If you are free to choose your assumptions as you wish you can prove anything within those assumptions. Sience uses a set of assumptions that has been very sucsessful at making predictions about the world, and has thus highly influenced our quality of living. Sience is a bit like evolution. It is a process, where theories evolve in order to better and better fit the data we collect about the world. Is sience "correct"? Probably not, but it is in all likelyhood more correct today than 200 years ago, and it will probably be even more correct 200 years from now (if we don't manage to wipe our civilisation out before then). There are a lot of data that fits with the idea of evolution. We can even observe the DNA molecules, for crying out loud!

____________________________
I would write some kind of signature if I wasn't so lazy. Oh, and right now I have a DROD RPG Let's Play plus a Let's Play of Troshian Tower going on :-)

[Last edited by Blondbeard at 04-05-2011 09:31 PM]
04-05-2011 at 09:29 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts High Scores This architect's holds Quote Reply
Dischorran
Level: Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 1963
Registered: 09-10-2005
IP: Logged
icon Re: Are you a believer? (+2)  
Symbiosis actually falls directly out of random mutation. Take a lab strain of yeast, which can make its own leucine out of a variety of different carbon/nitrogen/oxygen/hydrogen sources. Now, give it access to leucine. It'll happily take it up and stop making its own leucine to conserve energy.

Now, hit it with a mutagen. This can be a lab reagent calibrated for a particular number of mutations per given length of DNA, or you can just let it grow for a long time and let errors in replication and UV rays and so on mutate it "naturally". Each nucleotide has an even chance of being mutated; so-called "junk" DNA can mutate with no consequence and will therefore do so fairly quickly, DNA encoding important parts of genes or regulatory elements will tend to kill the cells when mutated so doesn't show up in the final population. The now-unused leucine synthesis gene now falls into the former category, and you end up with yeast that are dependent on externally supplied leucine, which you can identify by transferring them to a medium without leucine and see if they die. This is a genetic screen, and is a routine and common technique in molecular biology.

Replace the deliberate experiment of you providing leucine with neighboring organisms doing the same, and you get dependency of one organism on another, e.g. cats not synthesizing their own taurine because it's present in their prey, so now we have to add taurine to their synthetic food.

The larger point here is that while I didn't personally observe cats losing their ability to synthesize taurine, I'm not going to look at it and conclude that there must be a higher power any more than I'm going to conclude that because my favorite pen's missing that Penwielder must have found where I live and stolen it because it's in his name and everything. Because in both cases, there's a perfectly good explanation that doesn't involve jumping through major logical hoops. Now, if I'm told by a trusted source that he stole it, that changes the conclusion, but I'm going to cite said trusted source as why I'm concluding that, not the fact that my pen's missing.

____________________________
Click here to view the secret text

04-05-2011 at 09:30 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Show all user's posts High Scores This architect's holds Quote Reply
Rat Man
Level: Master Delver
Avatar
Rank Points: 121
Registered: 07-10-2010
IP: Logged
icon Re: Are you a believer? (0)  
quote:
Lamkin wrote:
quote:
Rat Man wrote:
I managed to talk [my mom] into letting me on [the forum] as long as my dad checked it out and it was okay. And he said "It's fine! All they're talking about is these games!"

Perhaps it's time for your dad to check it out again.
As impressed as my dad was by my arguments, he doesn't want me fighting with people on the Internet and says that this discussion was about to get ugly. So this is my last word on the subject.

____________________________
I'M IN SPACE!
Click here to view the secret text

04-05-2011 at 09:51 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Show all user's posts Quote Reply
Banjooie
Level: Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 1613
Registered: 12-12-2004
IP: Logged
icon Re: Are you a believer? (+2)  
'this discussion was about to get ugly'

Yeah. It was getting hella ugly. You can tell by the rational discourse and lack of insults.
04-05-2011 at 10:51 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts High Scores This architect's holds Quote Reply
Penwielder
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 620
Registered: 09-12-2009
IP: Logged
icon Re: Are you a believer? (0)  
Wow. Okay, let's see how much I can write before I have to go do other things.

quote:
Also, if the universe needs a created, why doesn't God? Surely He/She/It would need a source. Yeah. That argument is pretty silly.

Sure. I see where you're coming from there. Since (according to my view) God created the universe, he is not confined to its laws of physics. The example of that applying here is that he is not confined to time. There's at least one verse in the Bible that makes it fairly obvious that God's perception of time makes absolutely no sense from a human perspective. (I can probably find it if you want.) If something created him, that would imply that he had a beginning. Personally, although the basic premise is that "we're not going to understand it, because he's God", I find it easier to swallow than the idea that the universe came from nothing, or from something else which lacks such transcendent qualities (and thus needs an origin and an origin for its origin and so on).

quote:
[A citation is needed for the idea that] All galaxies must have reached entropic equilibrium on an astronomic time scale.

My argument there was a reference to a different explanation for the existence of the universe: that it has always been here. There are still people who hold that idea. And for those that don't, the time of the universe is limited by their other ideas already, which is for my point that there was not an infinite amount of time, which is what makes the low chance of evolution a valid point.

quote:
life on the molecular level, to me at least, shows vanishingly little HIGHLY SUBJECTIVE evidence of design

I'm not sure how else you could explain DNA, the means by which to use it, the means by which to replicate it, the means by which to double-check it (how sure are they on that part?), the means by which to obtain energy, the means by which to hold itself together, and so on all happening to appear at the same place at the same time. To me, that says 'design', but I understand that I'm predisposed to come to that conclusion.

quote:
if you really need them to justify your faith

Nah. If all of this could be conclusively proven, faith would not be necessary.

quote:
And religion will not, indeed cannot, ever offer explanations

Often, the purpose of religion is to explain the meaning of life. It's also worth noting instances like Greek Mythology, in which the myths are largely used to explain phenomena in the real world. How else can you explain things like the fact that humans conceive of such concepts as "good", "evil", "justice", or even "God"?

quote:
Good thing we have ways of measuring the age of a geologic layers by other means than pure location, eh. Like, oh I dunno, the level of decay of radioactive elements in the rocks...

This isn't to say that I would scrap them altogether, but these methods (or 'this method', if you prefer to talk about all radiometric dating collectively) are terribly inconsistent. There are several major assumptions involved: that the initial amount of the element used to date the rock is known (although there are some basic generalizations for often-dealt-with materials), that there were no outside interferences adding or removing any of said element from the sample (although they can track such interferences to some extent by dating more than one mineral in the sample), and that the rate of radioactive decay was constant (which, so far as I've seen, remains completely unverified). These methods have also sometimes generated enormous numbers for rocks which have formed within some of our lifetimes.

Phew. I've got more to say, but I've also got more to do. I hope I can get to it all soon.

I'd still like to know how it is that evolution and entropy can coexist.

____________________________
Penwielder's Palace, Detention Complex, Archipelago, Cube of Memories

[Last edited by Penwielder at 04-05-2011 11:26 PM]
04-05-2011 at 11:22 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts This architect's holds Quote Reply
Someone Else
Level: Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 1086
Registered: 06-14-2005
IP: Logged
icon Re: Are you a believer? (0)  
That's actually a common misconception - that entropy and evolution are incompatible. Entropy, as such, does not apply to information. It applies to energy and in that sense does not conflict with evolution.
What does conflict with evolution is the idea of specific complexity - that patterns that are unlikely to occur by chance (they have patterns we can find) and have short descriptions occur in DNA. Specific complexity, it is argued, cannot occur by random chance or evolution (not quite the same, but close).

It has basically the same effect as entropy would if it applied to information, as it implies that information can only go from high complexity to low complexity, but it's different terminology and has different equations that apply to it. I personally agree with it.
04-05-2011 at 11:43 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Show all user's posts High Scores This architect's holds Quote Reply
Dischorran
Level: Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 1963
Registered: 09-10-2005
IP: Logged
icon Re: Are you a believer? (0)  
Actually, entropy derives from simple probability - see Boltzmann's work from the 1800s, which has of course been expanded since then. I know vanishingly little about information theory, but would expect similar principles to apply and would love to hear what the equivalent of a closed system in information theory would be and whether it applies to DNA given that it's under outside selective pressure.

I'm also not familiar with any physicists who don't take the Big Bang seriously, although I'm not up on current thought in physics. As for origins of life, we know by now that RNA can both catalyze reactions and act as a genetic template, and that lipid compartments can replicate under the right conditions, and isn't it cool that we can annotate current thinking by how well it's been proven instead of having to lock in full explanations right from the start?

____________________________
Click here to view the secret text

04-06-2011 at 12:28 AM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Show all user's posts High Scores This architect's holds Quote Reply
Jatopian
Level: Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 1841
Registered: 07-31-2005
IP: Logged
icon Re: Are you a believer? (0)  
After Rat Man's post I was going to say "whatever, so long as we aren't embroiled in a fruitless debate" but apparently it's a self-sustaining reaction now that Rat Man got it started.

Thanks, Rat Man.

Oh well, at least I'm learning a few things.

____________________________
DROD has some really great music.
Make your pressure plates 3.0 style!
DROD architecture idea generator

[Last edited by Jatopian at 04-06-2011 05:49 AM]
04-06-2011 at 02:01 AM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts This architect's holds Quote Reply
Rabscuttle
Level: Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 1861
Registered: 09-10-2004
IP: Logged
icon Re: Are you a believer? (+4)  
quote:
Rat Man wrote:
Evolution is a poor explanation full of holes. Saying "Because the Intelligent Designer made it that way" is as stupid explanation. It's obvious that when creationists ask why things are the way they are, they mean why did the Intelligent Designer design it that way? "Because the Intelligent Designer designed it that way" is like an atheist saying "Because it just naturally formed like that." Exact same thing, both stupid, neither the accepted answer. And I don't see why the heck that would be the reason many Christians do believe in evolution. Anyway, evolution can't be true in Christianity, because of Adam and Eve. They did not evolve out of monkeys.


What are some of the holes you think exist?

I think you'll find that evolution can give a more informative answer than just "Because it just naturally formed like that.".

Why are flightless birds actually birds? What's up with a kiwi's wing-nubs?
Why can't dolphins and whales breathe underwater?
Why do most animals have five digits on each hand?
How come we have the same number of bones in our neck as a giraffe (or any other mammal)?
Why are there ligers and tigons and mules (oh my)? And not, say, Rat-men? ;)
Why do antibiotics become less effective over time?

---

hehehe horse hoofs are the middle digits, so they are the best animal at flipping people off.

[Last edited by Rabscuttle at 04-06-2011 06:21 AM]
04-06-2011 at 05:04 AM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts This architect's holds Quote Reply
NiroZ
Level: Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 1272
Registered: 02-12-2006
IP: Logged
icon Re: Are you a believer? (0)  
quote:
Dischorran wrote:
I'm also not familiar with any physicists who don't take the Big Bang seriously, although I'm not up on current thought in physics. As for origins of life, we know by now that RNA can both catalyze reactions and act as a genetic template, and that lipid compartments can replicate under the right conditions, and isn't it cool that we can annotate current thinking by how well it's been proven instead of having to lock in full explanations right from the start?


There are competing 'theories' to the big bang, according to my physicist flatmate, however, they're all equally secular. I highly doubt any astrophysicist thinks we have absolutely no idea as to how the universe started. Interestingly, it has been observed under very obscure, specific conditions for something to come out of nothing on a very small level.

____________________________
A still more glorious dawn awaits
Not a sunrise, but a galaxy rise
A morning filled with 400 billion suns
The rising of the milky way - Carl Sagan.

04-06-2011 at 05:24 AM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Show all user's posts This architect's holds Quote Reply
The spitemaster
Level: Smiter
Avatar
Rank Points: 343
Registered: 06-09-2005
IP: Logged
icon Re: Are you a believer? (0)  
I'm still sticking on my point of assumptions. What I was trying to get across was that assumptions are not tested along with the theories. For example:
(Evolutionist=E Creationist=C)
A C person sees the same thing that the E person sees.
In this case, the grand canyon. E says that the rock walls took a very long time to form. C says it took no more than a few days. E says the rate of erosion currently supports a large time scale. C says that the evidence of a sea above the grand canyon supports a rapid drain towards the pacific.

Both sides are possible. Both claim the other couldn't have happened.

On yet another factoid that is similar to the dinosaur blood cells. Helium is lighter than air. Because of this it slowly leaves the atmosphere. A place that it is captured is in crystals. These crystals have a very steady half life for the release of this helium. Helium has two methods of introduction to the earth system stellar winds, and radioactive decay. However, the amount of Helium in these crystals is significantly too high for periods of over 50 000 years. (There is a saturation point for these crystals. So there is a definite starting point to measure from) Which means one (or more) of these four things: there has been less time than thought, there has been a period of rapid decay, there is another source of helium, something has changed to reduce the holding time of these crystals.

____________________________
Last night upon a stair
I met a man that wasn't there
He wasn't there again today
I wish that man would stay away
04-06-2011 at 06:04 AM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Visit Homepage Show all user's posts This architect's holds Quote Reply
Rabscuttle
Level: Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 1861
Registered: 09-10-2004
IP: Logged
icon Re: Are you a believer? (+1)  
quote:
Jason wrote:
[ontopic?]
Then I saw her face!


Did you know that "I'm a believer" and "Suddenly" have almost the exact same first line!

I thought love was only true in fairy tales
vs
I used to think that love was just a fairy tale

What's up with that?!?
04-06-2011 at 06:12 AM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts This architect's holds Quote Reply
Rabscuttle
Level: Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 1861
Registered: 09-10-2004
IP: Logged
icon Re: Are you a believer? (+1)  
quote:
The spitemaster wrote:
On yet another factoid that is similar to the dinosaur blood cells. Helium is lighter than air. Because of this it slowly leaves the atmosphere. A place that it is captured is in crystals. These crystals have a very steady half life for the release of this helium. Helium has two methods of introduction to the earth system stellar winds, and radioactive decay. However, the amount of Helium in these crystals is significantly too high for periods of over 50 000 years. (There is a saturation point for these crystals. So there is a definite starting point to measure from) Which means one (or more) of these four things: there has been less time than thought, there has been a period of rapid decay, there is another source of helium, something has changed to reduce the holding time of these crystals.


I think you are referring to radioactive uranium and thorium in zircons, which produce Helium as they decay. I don't have time myself to read and understand this too deeply at the moment, but this is where I would start if anyone else wants to.

[Last edited by Rabscuttle at 04-06-2011 06:19 AM]
04-06-2011 at 06:16 AM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts This architect's holds Quote Reply
Tahnan
Level: Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 2436
Registered: 11-14-2005
IP: Logged
icon Re: Are you a believer? (+3)  
quote:
Rabscuttle wrote:
Did you know that "I'm a believer" and "Suddenly" have almost the exact same first line!

I thought love was only true in fairy tales
vs
I used to think that love was just a fairy tale

What's up with that?!?
It's clear evidence of a Creator. Two songs so similar could never have accidentally evolved in parallel.

To be more specific: the Monkees song is evidence of a kind and benevolent Creator. Billy Ocean is evidence of the Devil.
04-06-2011 at 06:20 AM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts High Scores This architect's holds Quote Reply
hyperme
Level: Smiter
Avatar
Rank Points: 449
Registered: 06-23-2006
IP: Logged
icon Re: Are you a believer? (+1)  
Perhaps I should repeat my point, with more to the pointness.

A man called Richard Lenski has, for 21 years, been performing an experiment on e. coli. He started with 12 indentical populations. They are no longer identical. The bacteria have adapted, in various ways, to the environments they are in. Each and every population is now different from the first genration. This, I feel, is fairly good evidense for evolution. Of course, the experiments been going on for over 50000 generations, so evolution is still slow. But now he's got e. coli that can live off citric acid, which the first genration couldn't. Evolution!

____________________________
[Insert witty comment here]
Qzvlkx?
04-06-2011 at 08:38 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts High Scores This architect's holds Quote Reply
Someone Else
Level: Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 1086
Registered: 06-14-2005
IP: Logged
icon Re: Are you a believer? (0)  
Not quite. In order for evolution to work (macro evolution, that is) organisms necessarily must gain usable information. If you start with a population of fish and left them for a long period of time, and came back and found only bacteria, would you say evolution has happened? Maybe. But it doesn't support the idea that the bacteria could evolve into fish, let alone humans.

And here's why: Bacteria are considered simpler than people, because they are. To get from bacteria to people you need to gain complexity. This is what I disagree with when I disagree with evolution.
I believe that information can be lost, maybe not in a controlled manner with which to make us simpler creatures, but changing our genetic makeup. However, that doesn't mean that it can go the other way.

An example of e. coli adapting to various situations has been made. Yet many adaptions are already available in the genes of the beginning population. If two populations began like this:

CAAAAAAAAA

CAAAAAAAAA

Or, 10% able to metabolize citric acid (and the other 90% able to metabolize, say, acetic acid), it could be said that the original population was unable to metabolize citric acid. After 50000 generations, two populations could end up like this:

CCCCCCCCCC

AAAAAAAAAA

Both populations would be different, but both would have less genetic information. This is not the direction that supports evolution, but it appears to the observer that the e. coli have evolved.

This is not the only explanation, and it may not be the correct one in this instance. However, it serves the purpose of pointing out that there is more than one way to interpret the results of any given experiment, given your starting bias.
04-07-2011 at 03:56 AM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Show all user's posts High Scores This architect's holds Quote Reply
Rabscuttle
Level: Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 1861
Registered: 09-10-2004
IP: Logged
icon Re: Are you a believer? (0)  
Genetic information is increased by random mutation
Genetic information is filtered by selection pressures.

In the absence of any mutation rate then you could end up with a population of clones. (Maybe you definitely would? Could depend on the types of selection pressure)

The little I know of Information Theory is that it's pretty technical and you need to have a precise definition of what 'information' actually is.
I think you are confusing the difference between the information of an individual's genetics (where you say humans are more complex than bacteria) and the information across a population (genetic diversity)

--

The point of the ecoli experiments were that the adaptions weren't available to the initial populations. No ecoli have ever been able to process citric acid before, so it wasn't just solely a case of selection pressure at work. Besides, if it were, being able to process the citrus would be such an advantage that it would have occured much sooner (and in the eleven other samples)

The really cool thing about the experiment is that samples of each population were frozen every 500 generations, so afterwards it is possible to go back and see just how and when the changes occured (and see how often they occured again)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._coli_long-term_evolution_experiment
Click here to view the secret text


04-07-2011 at 04:44 AM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts This architect's holds Quote Reply
Rabscuttle
Level: Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 1861
Registered: 09-10-2004
IP: Logged
icon Re: Are you a believer? (0)  
Oh, and things can evolve to be less complex, if less complex creatures are more successful. I guess you also need a precise definition of 'complexity' as well. :? Is a flightless bird less complex than a flying one? If something doesn't have eyes, does that make it less complex than something that does?
04-07-2011 at 04:59 AM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts This architect's holds Quote Reply
12
Page 3 of 5
45
New Topic New Poll Post Reply
Caravel Forum : Other Boards : Anything : Are you a believer? (Do you believe in God?)
Surf To:


Forum Rules:
Can I post a new topic? No
Can I reply? No
Can I read? Yes
HTML Enabled? No
UBBC Enabled? Yes
Words Filter Enable? No

Contact Us | CaravelGames.com

Powered by: tForum tForumHacks Edition b0.98.8
Originally created by Toan Huynh (Copyright © 2000)
Enhanced by the tForumHacks team and the Caravel team.