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Do you believe in God?
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Rat Man
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It is a well-known fact that you can neither prove, nor disprove the existence of God. Personally, I believe.

I have seen people mock theists' attempts to prove the existence of God multiple times on this forum. That made me sad because it seems like I'm one of the only ones on this forum who believes in him. I wish people wouldn't be so loud about how stupid it is to try to prove his existence, since it is equally stupid to try to disprove it.

But enough rambling; the point is, I want to know how many people here are believers

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[Last edited by Rat Man at 04-03-2011 08:03 PM]
04-03-2011 at 02:03 AM
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Jatopian
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quote:
Rat Man wrote:
It is a well-known fact that you can neither prove, nor disprove the existence of God.
Teehee. Such controversial statements from one so young.

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04-03-2011 at 03:26 AM
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Do we really want to go here?

(also, I'm fairly sure you're not the only believer here Rat Man)

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04-03-2011 at 04:26 AM
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Aha. I was wondering which type of homeschooled you were; thanks for clearing that up.

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04-03-2011 at 04:59 AM
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quote:
Rat Man wrote:
I wish people wouldn't be so loud about how stupid it is to try to prove his existence, since it is equally stupid to try to prove it.


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04-03-2011 at 07:23 AM
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I think he meant it's as equally stupid to prove as to disprove.

Not that I agree with that. I have a hard enough time working it over myself, that I don't think that it is a waste of time. How on earth, could something that upsets people I don't like, not be important?

Notice how not clear I have been. This is analogy to how arguments like this usually go. Poorly.

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04-03-2011 at 07:44 AM
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I believe that libraries can be quite helpful. :geek

"Reading made Don Quixote a gentleman, but believing what he read made him mad." :medieval

George Bernard Shaw

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[Last edited by Ivcha Pivcha at 04-04-2011 05:28 PM]
04-03-2011 at 12:15 PM
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I believe that..

Whether one believes in God or not doesn't have any relation to how nice or intelligent they are. Luckily everyone on the DROD forum is nice and intelligent!

If you just want to know how many people believe in different things maybe you could try a poll?
[oops, I didn't even notice the poll at the top:)]

[Last edited by larrymurk at 04-04-2011 12:55 AM]
04-03-2011 at 02:32 PM
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Rat Man
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quote:
Jatopian wrote:
Teehee. Such controversial statements from one so young.
Well, it's true! I know it cannot be proved or disproved because my brother, who takes philosophy, told me all the arguments that people used to prove/disprove it.
quote:
Dischorran wrote:
Aha. I was wondering which type of homeschooled you were; thanks for clearing that up.
What's that supposed to mean?! When did I ever say I was homeschooled? And what do you mean, "What TYPE of homeschool"?
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larrymurk wrote:
I believe that..

Whether one believes in God or not doesn't have any relation to how nice or intelligent they are. Luckily everyone on the DROD forum is nice and intelligent!

If you just want to know how many people believe in different things maybe you could try a poll?
I never once said that it made a difference in whether they are nice or intelligent; I have no idea what gave you that idea. And this IS a poll.

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04-03-2011 at 08:08 PM
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But what answer would a SCIENTOLOGIST(TM) use? Actually, its best not to dwell on that. I'll just proclaim my lack of belief in any divine being and go on with my life.

Of course, to be an antitheist, would you not need to believe in the being you oppose?

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04-03-2011 at 08:14 PM
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Not really. You could just be opposed to the general idea of deities. I myself am anti-transforming-people-into-tulips - just because it probably doesn't happen doesn't mean it wouldn't be wrong if it did.
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Rat Man wrote:
Well, it's true! I know it cannot be proved or disproved because my brother, who takes philosophy, told me all the arguments that people used to prove/disprove it.
You can be entirely correct and still be controversial. Which is not to say you are correct - that depends on how one defines "god".
quote:
What's that supposed to mean?! When did I ever say I was homeschooled?
Well, aren't you?

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04-03-2011 at 08:46 PM
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Rat Man
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Yes, I am, but how did you know I was? What did you mean by "What type of homeschooled"? Why were you wondering what kind of homeschooled I was? Did you know I was homeschooled the whole time? As I'm sure you've already guessed, this is directed at Dischorran)

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04-03-2011 at 09:03 PM
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quote:
Well, it's true! I know it cannot be proved or disproved because my brother, who takes philosophy, told me all the arguments that people used to prove/disprove it.
> I know it's true because someone told me!

This is what comes from being homeschooled in a religious environment, kids. This. Right here.

To clarify: Your stance is pretty solid, but your reasoning is kind of adorably lacking.

[Last edited by Banjooie at 04-03-2011 09:12 PM]
04-03-2011 at 09:11 PM
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I can understand how you would take what I said to mean that; however, I do not believe it is true because someone told me. George (my brother) told me JUST the philosophical arguments. He told me what all the arguments they make for both sides were. HE NEVER EVEN TOLD ME THAT IT WAS TRUE! I MADE THAT LOGICAL CONCLUSION BASED ON ALL THE ARGUMENTS BY FAMOUS PHILOSOPHERS!

And, yes, I was raised Christian. But I don't believe it just because someone told me! I have seriously thought about whether He was real, over and over again. I thought very deeply about it. And if you think I believe just because I was told subconsciously and I was lying to myself, or anything similar, I don't believe half the things my parents/family tells me! You're gonna have to take my word for it! And homeschoolers aren't like the stereotype. I am very independent and I think much of that comes from being homeschooled. I learned for myself that I have to think about things for myself before I believe them. And that's not something I think I would have learned from public school. I could be wrong.

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04-03-2011 at 09:28 PM
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First of all, excuse me for a moment as I gape in shock at the level of discourse Rat Man is demonstrating in this particular thread.

Anyway, now that this is off my chest, I really don't understand where this poll is coming from. The last major God debacle on the forum was, umm, five years ago? Over "Jesus is Lord" signatures? And since then people vigorously avoid the subject like the plague, to my knowledge.

So it would be nice if we got some background on this poll, because I haven't noticed any theist attempts to prove the existence of God, nor any mocking thereof. No offense, but judging by Rat Man's latest activities, it could be he is unstuck in time again, and this is a response to something from ages past. Which should have been left undisturbed...

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04-03-2011 at 10:54 PM
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Any religious topic is going to offend someone or another.

Even if we all agree on it, it would offend someone completely not interested on the forum. Or some other religious belief not from this forum.

This is a puzzle game site, and this kind of discussions just distract what this forum is all about.

Just like those other subjects that's clearly written in the FAQ not to talk about.

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04-03-2011 at 11:11 PM
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quote:
Maurog wrote:
First of all, excuse me for a moment as I gape in shock at the level of discourse Rat Man is demonstrating in this particular thread.

Agreed.
quote:
Anyway, now that this is off my chest, I really don't understand where this poll is coming from. The last major God debacle on the forum was, umm, five years ago? Over "Jesus is Lord" signatures? And since then people vigorously avoid the subject like the plague, to my knowledge.

You forgot this, which was certainly much closer to flamewar status than the "Jesus is Lord" event.
quote:
Rat Man wrote:
I can understand how you would take what I said to mean that; however, I do not believe it is true because someone told me. George (my brother) told me JUST the philosophical arguments. He told me what all the arguments they make for both sides were. HE NEVER EVEN TOLD ME THAT IT WAS TRUE! I MADE THAT LOGICAL CONCLUSION BASED ON ALL THE ARGUMENTS BY FAMOUS PHILOSOPHERS!

No need to shout. Shouting does not improve your argument. Now, in my opinion, defending this specific point is useless; we know your stance and probably already agree with you.
quote:
And, yes, I was raised Christian. But I don't believe it just because someone told me! I have seriously thought about whether He was real, over and over again. I thought very deeply about it. And if you think I believe just because I was told subconsciously and I was lying to myself, or anything similar, I don't believe half the things my parents/family tells me! You're gonna have to take my word for it! And homeschoolers aren't like the stereotype. I am very independent and I think much of that comes from being homeschooled. I learned for myself that I have to think about things for myself before I believe them. And that's not something I think I would have learned from public school. I could be wrong.

I just read Tim's most recent post and decided not to discuss this, or any of your other posts in this thread, further.

Listen to Tim. He knows what he is talking about. Best to drop the argument right here and either post if you believe or not (which is bait for more of this *gestures at the thread*, so probably a bad idea) or simply avoid this thread altogether.

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04-03-2011 at 11:18 PM
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Rat Man
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quote:
Maurog wrote:
First of all, excuse me for a moment as I gape in shock at the level of discourse Rat Man is demonstrating in this particular thread.
Discourse as in conversation? I don't know what you mean...
quote:
I really don't understand where this poll is coming from. The last major God debacle on the forum was, umm, five years ago? Over "Jesus is Lord" signatures? And since then people vigorously avoid the subject like the plague, to my knowledge.
Well, I did not know about that, nor did I expect so many replies or the things people are saying about me for being a homeschooler. Where was this poll coming from? I was sad because there didn't seem to be many believers on the forum. That's all I originally intended, if you can believe that.
quote:
So it would be nice if we got some background on this poll, because I haven't noticed any theist attempts to prove the existence of God, nor any mocking thereof.
Well, here is the only link I could find but I know it wasn't the only time I saw this kind of thing. Look at NiroZ's comment. http://forum.caravelgames.com/viewtopic.php?TopicID=28643&page=0#280293
quote:
No offense, but judging by Rat Man's latest activities, it could be he is unstuck in time again, and this is a response to something from ages past. Which should have been left undisturbed...
What does "Unstuck in time" mean? And what recent activities? But I can tell you right now, this is not a response to anything from ages past. It's just about that fact that I wanted to know how many of you believed in God.

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04-03-2011 at 11:30 PM
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Rat Man
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I wish I could say I disagree with Tim, but I can't. Let me elaborate: in most cultures, religion is a favorite subject and people actually talk about it to people with different beliefs for the fun of it, without getting into heated arguments. They get into those too, but that's beside the point. But in America and probably some other places, people avoid the subject like the plague! I just don't get it! I like to talk about religion.

So I have to say that in this day and age, it's not to talk about it on this particular forum. And I totally agree that shouting doesn't help my point. But I don't agree that it doesn't matter if they don't like my reasoning or that they think I'll believe anything I'm told. It is my job as a Christian to help people to understand that Christians aren't idiots who'll believe anything they're told.

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04-03-2011 at 11:41 PM
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It's just that debating topics that get people heated is not a good thing to talk about on the internet. For instance, if I said that since most muslims have a significantly higher birth rate, and using demographics, our heritage will turn into burka wearing and anti-everything-other-than-muhammad, would that be a good idea.

Even if you think that it is very important to tell people what you believe, using the internet is not the medium that you should use. There is too long between comments, which allow people to get angry over long periods of time. Which is the reason we want you to drop it.

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04-04-2011 at 12:32 AM
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quote:
Rat Man wrote:Well, here is the only link I could find but I know it wasn't the only time I saw this kind of thing. Look at NiroZ's comment. http://forum.caravelgames.com/viewtopic.php?TopicID=28643&page=0#280293[


The reason I linked to that would be the same if it was a post-modernist trying to disprove science (although considering the ensuing thread, it was a bad idea).

Anyway, rat man. If you want to discuss religion, you have to realise its a topic very close to peoples hearts, and you're going to have people 'typing in allcaps' like you just were. Also, there is many forums and blogs for discussing religion and atheism, and I suggest you go to one of them. Granted, they're less likely to be as mild mannered as people generally are on this forum, and you won't really know much about them, but at least the forum/blog was intended for that purpose.

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04-04-2011 at 02:47 AM
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Unfortunatly, as I see it, your poll and first post was quite well designed to start a discussion. Firstly you wrote God, which is generally the name for the Christian god. I don't even know how I would have answered the poll if I was a muslim, and that was kind of anoying. Secondly you seemed to imply that the forum is oppresive against religous people, which is kind of an argument starter. You also stated that it was impossible to prove Gods existance, but if that is the case, what's so wrong with mocking those who do? I mean is it more wrong than mocking other people doing stupid/impossible things (I am well aware that you could argue that it's never nice to mock someone).

The topic was thus quite likely to be debated.I don't think anyone have said that homescooling is a bad thing, and I think dischorran's conclusions are quite impressive. Isn't it a bit fun that he could know you were homeschooled from your forum activity?

About the subject of religion (and I'll try my best not to be ofensive): The way I see it there's nothing wrong with believing in something. What seems a bit odd from an outside perspective is to be too specific about it. If there exsists a God he/she/it is obviously very bad at comunicating it's existance to us in a clear way (or more likely: doesn't want to). There are, and have been thousands of religions, and within some of those religions there are hundreds of variants. Quite many probably have some kind of miracles linked to them (as does atheism, unlikely things are bound to happen). There is no proof for either one of them, and if you pick one branch to believe in (like a particular branch of Christianity) you are most certanly wrong. Some religuos people solve this by saying that all gods are actually the same, and that there are wisdom in all religons. This I can respect, even though there seems to be quite a large dose of follies in most of them as well (e.g. the greek mythology).

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[Last edited by Blondbeard at 04-04-2011 06:28 AM]
04-04-2011 at 06:26 AM
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OK. So, since we don't want to have a religious argument, I'm going to divert this thread like you don't even know.

That is: How to tell if someone is homeschooled via the internet! Because this is an incredibly valuable topic not just for your edification (amaze your friends! Confound your enemies!) but also I guess for Rat Man, now that he has started to encroach upon the internet as a whole.

Homeschooling, you see, can be more effective than public schooling for purposes of academic learning. I don't really think this is a thing you can debate. It is one on one learning, and you're not going to get let behind. If the person home schooling is deadset on teaching you, you will do better.

So Rat Man here is all up in the linguistics, and seems to generally be capable of debating his way out of a wet paper bag. This is extremely common.

One of the major advantages to home schooling is you get to eschew dealing with idiots and jerks all day for twelve years.

The /striking disadvantage to home schooling/ is you eschew dealing with idiots.

Basically, when you're home schooled, your primary social interaction is with friends. Friends is the important term here; you do not socially interact with acquaintances, guys you barely know, or guys you know that you despise. It means that you are not regularly exposed to opinions that deviate from your own, or; if you are, they are things you can look at at a safe distance, rather than have them shoved down your throat by someone at the end of a few knuckles.

It means, among other things, you come out of it with a slightly skewed method of handling them. For the most part, in my experience, it tends to be confusion.

Basically, the way you've reacted in this thread and the other thread indicate you're not used to dealing with people who are willing to bait and/or mock you for basically no reason other than their own entertainment, Rat Man. You've probably primarily had /friends/ as your social circle, and you don't usually have to deal with people who hate you for no reason.

That's how we know you're homeschooled.

If you end up going into the public school system for high school or college, you're going to have one hell of a shock.
04-04-2011 at 07:32 AM
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Wow, I thought we knew he was homeschooled because he told us so.

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04-04-2011 at 11:50 AM
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....

There are people that actually /read/ that thread who have more than, like, five posts?

Cause I've looked at it I think thrice since I registered.

04-04-2011 at 12:56 PM
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I usually only look at it when given reason to.

I wasn't saying i disagree with anything you wrote, I just thought my way was easier :P. I must say, I was impressed with your long, troll-free post!

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04-04-2011 at 01:44 PM
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quote:
Rat Man wrote:
Well, it's true! I know it cannot be proved or disproved because my brother, who takes philosophy, told me all the arguments that people used to prove/disprove it.
I'm going to skip right over the idea of deciding that something is true because a philosopher told you.

But, Rat Man: your logic here is the following.

1. No argument has ever succeeded in proving or disproving X.
2. Therefore, X cannot be proven or disproven.

That, right there, is incredibly fallacious. While induction is an important element of logical reasoning ("every time I stick a fork in this outlet, I get shocked; therefore, I believe it will happen next time, too"), it's not an actual proof. The rather famous example of this logic going south, in both a figurative and a literal sense, is:

1. Every swan we've ever seen is white.
2. Therefore, all swans are white.

This logic was solid and useful and accepted until Europeans got to Australia.

The point is, just because no argument has ever succeeded in proving or disproving the existence of G-d, that doesn't mean that no argument can. (And even this sets aside the question of what counts as proof; after all, all of those arguments your brother learned were believed to be definitive proof by someone.)

[Last edited by Tahnan at 04-04-2011 02:14 PM]
04-04-2011 at 02:14 PM
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quote:
Rat Man wrote:
It is a well-known fact that you can neither prove, nor disprove the existence of God.


Prove it.

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04-04-2011 at 02:53 PM
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quote:
NiroZ wrote:
The reason I linked to that would be the same if it was a post-modernist trying to disprove science (although considering the ensuing thread, it was a bad idea).

Anyway, rat man. If you want to discuss religion, you have to realise its a topic very close to peoples hearts, and you're going to have people 'typing in allcaps' like you just were. Also, there is many forums and blogs for discussing religion and atheism, and I suggest you go to one of them. Granted, they're less likely to be as mild mannered as people generally are on this forum, and you won't really know much about them, but at least the forum/blog was intended for that purpose.
Thanks for the advice/insight.
quote:
Blondbeard wrote:
Firstly you wrote God, which is generally the name for the Christian god. I don't even know how I would have answered the poll if I was a muslim, and that was kind of anoying.
I have heard Muslims refer to allah as God on multiple occasions.
quote:
Secondly you seemed to imply that the forum is oppresive against religous people, which is kind of an argument starter.
I did not mean to do so. I'm sorry if I did.
quote:
You also stated that it was impossible to prove Gods existance, but if that is the case, what's so wrong with mocking those who do? I mean is it more wrong than mocking other people doing stupid/impossible things
It's not that they mock those who try to disprove atheists, it's that I never came across anyone here who mocked those who tried to disprove theists, but I've come across people mocking those who try to disprove atheists.
quote:
I don't think anyone have said that homescooling is a bad thing, and I think dischorran's conclusions are quite impressive. Isn't it a bit fun that he could know you were homeschooled from your forum activity?
It's not what Dischorran said, it's what Banjooie said. He seemed to be saying that people homeschooled in a religious environment will believe anything they're told. I'm guessing now, after the post below yours, that either I misunderstood or that he took it back.
quote:
About the subject of religion (and I'll try my best not to be ofensive): The way I see it there's nothing wrong with believing in something. What seems a bit odd from an outside perspective is to be too specific about it. If there exsists a God he/she/it is obviously very bad at comunicating it's existance to us in a clear way (or more likely: doesn't want to). There are, and have been thousands of religions, and within some of those religions there are hundreds of variants. Quite many probably have some kind of miracles linked to them (as does atheism, unlikely things are bound to happen). There is no proof for either one of them, and if you pick one branch to believe in (like a particular branch of Christianity) you are most certanly wrong. Some religuos people solve this by saying that all gods are actually the same, and that there are wisdom in all religons. This I can respect, even though there seems to be quite a large dose of follies in most of them as well (e.g. the greek mythology).
I don't really see what you mean, so I can't really give an effective response.
quote:
Banjooie wrote:
How to tell if someone is homeschooled via the internet! Because this is an incredibly valuable topic not just for your edification (amaze your friends! Confound your enemies!) but also I guess for Rat Man, now that he has started to encroach upon the internet as a whole.
That's a good idea. Let's talk about that instead.
quote:
Homeschooling, you see, can be more effective than public schooling for purposes of academic learning. I don't really think this is a thing you can debate. It is one on one learning, and you're not going to get let behind. If the person home schooling is deadset on teaching you, you will do better.
I agree with you so far...
quote:
So Rat Man here is all up in the linguistics, and seems to generally be capable of debating his way out of a wet paper bag. This is extremely common.
I appreciate the complement! And, ironically, you're the one who was always picking on me whenever I said something stupid before...
quote:
One of the major advantages to home schooling is you get to eschew dealing with idiots and jerks all day for twelve years.

The /striking disadvantage to home schooling/ is you eschew dealing with idiots.

Basically, when you're home schooled, your primary social interaction is with friends. Friends is the important term here; you do not socially interact with acquaintances, guys you barely know, or guys you know that you despise. It means that you are not regularly exposed to opinions that deviate from your own, or; if you are, they are things you can look at at a safe distance, rather than have them shoved down your throat by someone at the end of a few knuckles.

It means, among other things, you come out of it with a slightly skewed method of handling them. For the most part, in my experience, it tends to be confusion.

Basically, the way you've reacted in this thread and the other thread indicate you're not used to dealing with people who are willing to bait and/or mock you for basically no reason other than their own entertainment, Rat Man. You've probably primarily had /friends/ as your social circle, and you don't usually have to deal with people who hate you for no reason.
This is not necessarily true. It is often true, I admit, but here is how I feel about that.

First of all, this only applies if they don't get enough exposure to the outside world. Contrary to common belief, homeschoolers can live a very social life, meet new people, go places, etc. etc.

Second of all, if the parents teach their kids to be strong people and not to let the jerks of the world get to them, or if they learned it themselves or are just born like that, they will not have this problem, as homeschoolers are almost always familiar with the fact that the world is full of jerks. They know what's coming. They just don't know what to do when it happens to them.

Like I said, the problem you outlined does exist, just not as much as people like to think.
quote:
That's how we know you're homeschooled.
In that case, I know people you would "know" is homeschooled who isn't. It's more of an educated guess
quote:
If you end up going into the public school system for high school or college, you're going to have one hell of a shock.
Strangely enough, I am quite calm when I run into jerks outside of home. I have anger management issues, but only when I'm at home. If you guy could tell that I was homeschooled, maybe you know why that would be?
quote:
Schik wrote:
Wow, I thought we knew he was homeschooled because he told us so.
I forgot I said that. But I guess that doesn't really change what's been said, surprisingly enough.
quote:
Tahnan wrote:
quote:
Rat Man wrote:
Well, it's true! I know it cannot be proved or disproved because my brother, who takes philosophy, told me all the arguments that people used to prove/disprove it.
I'm going to skip right over the idea of deciding that something is true because a philosopher told you.

But, Rat Man: your logic here is the following.

1. No argument has ever succeeded in proving or disproving X.
2. Therefore, X cannot be proven or disproven.

That, right there, is incredibly fallacious. While induction is an important element of logical reasoning ("every time I stick a fork in this outlet, I get shocked; therefore, I believe it will happen next time, too"), it's not an actual proof. The rather famous example of this logic going south, in both a figurative and a literal sense, is:

1. Every swan we've ever seen is white.
2. Therefore, all swans are white.

This logic was solid and useful and accepted until Europeans got to Australia.

The point is, just because no argument has ever succeeded in proving or disproving the existence of G-d, that doesn't mean that no argument can. (And even this sets aside the question of what counts as proof; after all, all of those arguments your brother learned were believed to be definitive proof by someone.)
That's not what I actually meant and I can explain what I was saying but I'm warn out by all this fighting and it'll no doubt lead to more fighting. So let's forget about that even if you don't believe me.
quote:
Jacob wrote:
Prove it.
Same goes for you.

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Same goes for you.


Same what goes for me? What do you want me to prove?

You stated in your very first post in this thread it was a fact that "you can neither prove, nor disprove the existence of God".

Why is that a fact? I was merely asking if you could prove that statement was a fact. You don't have to obviously - I was being slightly humorous - but it just seemed an odd thing to say.

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