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Hammerite
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icon DROD Zendo 2 (+1)  
Let's play Zendo with images from the DROD level editor!

I left a bit of time after the other game finished to see if someone else wanted to start one, but decided to start one since it's been a few hours. I tweaked the rules description a bit.

(Note: I have obtained permission from mrimer to post images from the editor in this forum for this game. You get to do that too as part of playing the game.)

What's Zendo?

Zendo is a game about logic, and observation. The full rules of Zendo are not suited to play over an online forum, but we can play a simpler version of it no problem.

How it works: Zendo is a game about koans, which in this case are cropped screenshots from the DROD level editor. Some koans have the Buddha-nature, and some do not have the Buddha-nature. The Master knows the Secret Rule that determines whether a koan has the Buddha-nature or not. The players of the game try to identify the Secret Rule.

Initially, I will show you two koans, one of which has the Buddha-nature and one of which does not (I say which is which). Post in this thread to do either of two things:

1) Post a koan of your own and ask, "Master, does this koan have the Buddha-nature?" (You don't have to ask in those terms if you prefer not to.) I will tell you whether or not your koan has the Buddha-nature, and I will add it to the OP. (You should use a suitable imagehost to host your koan.)

2) Make a guess as to the Secret Rule. If your guess is correct, you have achieved enlightenment. (The game is a race to identify the Secret Rule. You are not required to put your guess in spoilers, although I guess you can if you really want to.)

If you make an incorrect guess, I will post a koan that disproves your guess - that is, I will post a koan that has the Buddha-nature even though your rule says it should not, or that does not have the Buddha-nature even though your rule says it should.

If I think the rule that you guessed is ambiguous, I may ask questions to clarify what precisely your rule is before I respond.

Additional rules:

- After asking for a koan to be marked ([1] above), you may not ask another until either another person has asked, or 24 hours have passed (whichever happens first).

- After making a guess as to the rule ([2] above), you may not make another guess until either another two people have guessed, or 36 hours have passed (whichever happens first).

These two things are independent. You can make a guess and then, if I tell you that your guess was incorrect, ask for a koan to be marked without waiting to be able to post another guess. You can ask for a koan to be marked, and then make a guess after getting a response. If you make a guess and it is incorrect, then two other people have to make a guess (or 36 hours have to pass) before you can guess again - if someone merely asks for a koan to be marked, that doesn't count towards allowing you to guess again.

Rules that restrict what can and what cannot be the Secret Rule:

The "Spock rule" states that it must be possible to determine whether a koan has the Buddha-nature simply by looking at the koan with one's eyes. The rule says that you can't come up with a Secret Rule that requires meta-information about the koan that can't be discerned just by looking at it. Essentially, it says that the Secret Rule must be "fair".

The following are examples of Secret Rules that would comply with the Spock Rule:

- The koan contains at least two Wraithwings.
- The koan contains a Slayer standing next to an orb.
- The koan shows a square area of the room.
- The koan does not contain any Wubbas.

The following are examples of Secret Rules that would not comply with the Spock Rule:

- The koan is hosted at an imagehost whose name begins with "i".
- The koan was first posted between 15 and 45 minutes past the hour, on a weekday.
- Let n be the number of koans that were posted before the koan in question. Then n+1 is not a prime number.

In addition to the Spock Rule, a Secret Rule should not generally be overly contrived. This is a more subjective rule, but it should nevertheless be adhered to. If it is difficult to phrase the Secret Rule without chaining statements about the koan together using the words "and" and "or", then the Secret Rule is probably too contrived.

The rules above are not contrived. The following rule is contrived:

- The koan contains 3 Waterskippers AND it does not contain a Slayer AND it contains more Roaches than Evil Eyes AND it is square.

OK! Let's play Zendo!

The following koans have the Buddha-nature:



(Timo006)

(response to guess by Casebier)

(response to guess by Timo006)

(CuriousShyRabbit)

(response to guess by Timo006)

(Kargaros)

(The Stew Boy)

(brian_s)

(Maurog)

(brian_s)

(Kargaros)

The following koans do not have the Buddha-nature:



(response to guess by The Stew Boy)

(response to guess by PMIT)

(CuriousShyRabbit and Timo006)

[Last edited by Hammerite at 10-20-2010 02:21 PM]
10-10-2010 at 10:32 PM
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Timo006
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icon Re: DROD Zendo 2 (+1)  
Master, does this koan have the Buddha-nature?

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10-11-2010 at 12:29 AM
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Casebier
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icon Re: DROD Zendo 2 (0)  
Would the rule be that every creature is facing a diagonal direction?

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Revisiting old Project: ZelDROD 1 / ZelDROD RPG (If I can ever find the custom graphic files that I made for it.)
10-11-2010 at 12:48 AM
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Hammerite
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icon Re: DROD Zendo 2 (0)  
quote:
Timo006 wrote:
Master, does this koan have the Buddha-nature?


Yes, it does.
10-11-2010 at 01:04 AM
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Timo006
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icon Re: DROD Zendo 2 (0)  
Is the secret rule: All monsters on top of the red doors must be facing the same direction, and all monsters on top of the black doors must be facing the same direction?

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10-11-2010 at 01:09 AM
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Hammerite
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icon Re: DROD Zendo 2 (+1)  
quote:
Casebier wrote:
Would the rule be that every creature is facing a diagonal direction?


You are not yet enlightened.

This koan has the Buddha-nature, but not every creature is facing in a diagonal direction:


10-11-2010 at 01:11 AM
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Hammerite
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icon Re: DROD Zendo 2 (+1)  
quote:
Timo006 wrote:
Is the secret rule: All monsters on top of the red doors must be facing the same direction, and all monsters on top of the black doors must be facing the same direction?


You are not yet enlightened.

The following koan has the Buddha-nature, but according to your rule it should not:


10-11-2010 at 01:15 AM
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The Stew Boy
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icon Re: DROD Zendo 2 (0)  
Is the rule 'there must be at least 1 golem diagonally adjacent to an Evil Eye facing 90 degrees away from it'?

[Last edited by The Stew Boy at 10-11-2010 03:04 AM]
10-11-2010 at 03:00 AM
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Hammerite
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icon Re: DROD Zendo 2 (+1)  
quote:
The Stew Boy wrote:
Is the rule 'there must be at least 1 golem diagonally adjacent to an Evil Eye facing 90 degrees away from it'?


I wasn't sure what you meant by this at first. I thought that you might mean that the line from the Evil Eye to the Golem must be perpendicular to the direction faced by the Evil Eye. But some of the yes-koans fail to satisfy that rule. So I assume what you mean is that the directions faced by the Golem and the Evil Eye must be perpendicular.

The following koan does not have the Buddha-nature, although it contains an Evil Eye and a Golem that are diagonally adjacent and facing in perpendicular directions:


10-11-2010 at 10:52 AM
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CuriousShyRabbit
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icon Re: DROD Zendo 2 (0)  
Master, does this koan have the Buddha nature?



[Last edited by CuriousShyRabbit at 10-12-2010 06:27 AM]
10-12-2010 at 06:25 AM
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Maurog
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icon Re: DROD Zendo 2 (0)  
Is the rule, there must be an even amount of red doors?

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10-12-2010 at 08:50 AM
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Briareos
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icon Re: DROD Zendo 2 (0)  
quote:
Maurog wrote:
Is the rule, there must be an even amount of red doors?

More like "the red doors must be horizontally symmetrical, no matter what monsters there are"...

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R.I.P. Robert Feldhoff (1962-2009) :(
10-12-2010 at 09:49 AM
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Hammerite
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icon Re: DROD Zendo 2 (0)  
quote:
CuriousShyRabbit wrote:
Master, does this koan have the Buddha nature?




Yes, it does.
10-12-2010 at 10:04 AM
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Hammerite
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icon Re: DROD Zendo 2 (0)  
quote:
Maurog wrote:
Is the rule, there must be an even amount of red doors?


quote:
Briareos wrote:
More like "the red doors must be horizontally symmetrical, no matter what monsters there are"...


Unless I have misunderstood you, there is already a koan posted that satisfies both of these rules but does not have the Buddha-nature (the second of the no-koans in the OP). So I won't count these as guesses.
10-12-2010 at 10:07 AM
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Timo006
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Is the secret rule "All Goblins and Golems must be standing on open red doors."?

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10-12-2010 at 06:06 PM
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CuriousShyRabbit
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icon Re: DROD Zendo 2 (0)  
The Rabbit is thinking along different lines.

Master, does this koan have the Buddha nature?



[Last edited by CuriousShyRabbit at 10-12-2010 06:22 PM]
10-12-2010 at 06:20 PM
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Hammerite
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icon Re: DROD Zendo 2 (0)  
quote:
Timo006 wrote:
Is the secret rule "All Goblins and Golems must be standing on open red doors."?


Unfortunately, you are not yet enlightened. This koan has the Buddha-nature, but not all Goblins and Golems are standing on open red doors:


10-12-2010 at 06:39 PM
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Hammerite
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icon Re: DROD Zendo 2 (0)  
quote:
CuriousShyRabbit wrote:
The Rabbit is thinking along different lines.

Master, does this koan have the Buddha nature?




Could you take the screenshot again and post it as a PNG image? Thanks.

edit: I just realised though, you asked most recently to be marked. You'll have to wait for someone else to ask before I respond.

[Last edited by Hammerite at 10-12-2010 06:44 PM]
10-12-2010 at 06:40 PM
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icon Re: DROD Zendo 2 (0)  
Master, is the secret rule "There are no tar babies in the koan?"

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10-12-2010 at 09:15 PM
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Hammerite
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icon Re: DROD Zendo 2 (0)  
quote:
PMIT wrote:
Master, is the secret rule "There are no tar babies in the koan?"


Unfortunately, you are not yet enlightened.

This koan does not contain any Tar Babies, yet it does not have the Buddha-nature:


10-12-2010 at 09:56 PM
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icon Re: DROD Zendo 2 (0)  
Master, does this koan have the Buddha nature?



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[Last edited by Kargaros at 10-13-2010 07:48 AM]
10-13-2010 at 07:47 AM
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Hammerite
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icon Re: DROD Zendo 2 (0)  
quote:
Kargaros wrote:
Master, does this koan have the Buddha nature?




Yes, it does.
10-13-2010 at 01:34 PM
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The Stew Boy
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icon Re: DROD Zendo 2 (0)  
Master, does this koan have the Buddha nature?



[Last edited by The Stew Boy at 10-13-2010 08:20 PM]
10-13-2010 at 08:20 PM
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Hammerite
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icon Re: DROD Zendo 2 (0)  
quote:
The Stew Boy wrote:
Master, does this koan have the Buddha nature?




Yes, it does.
10-13-2010 at 09:13 PM
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Timo006
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icon Re: DROD Zendo 2 (0)  
Just borrowing CSR's picture...

Master, does this Koan have the Buddha nature?

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10-17-2010 at 01:11 PM
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vinheim
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Could the rule be that there has to be at least 1 golem and it has to be on top of an open red or black gate?

EDIT: Nevermind, saw a pic above with no golems >.>

[Last edited by vinheim at 10-17-2010 02:18 PM]
10-17-2010 at 01:57 PM
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Master, does this koan have the budda nature?
10-17-2010 at 02:47 PM
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Timo006
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Is the rule "A koan must contain only opened black and red doors, placed such that the resulting pattern posesses reflection symmetry"?

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Proud winner of the "Graphics Design Excellence in a Modification" Award in the 7th APC Awards.

[Last edited by Timo006 at 10-17-2010 02:59 PM]
10-17-2010 at 02:57 PM
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Hammerite
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icon Re: DROD Zendo 2 (0)  
quote:
Timo006 wrote:
Is the rule "A koan must contain only opened black and red doors, placed such that the resulting pattern posesses reflection symmetry"?


I won't count this as a guess, because if I understand your rule correctly, it's already disproved by the second no-koan - this koan has reflective symmetry across the horizontal line through the middle of the koan.
10-17-2010 at 03:19 PM
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Hammerite
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icon Re: DROD Zendo 2 (0)  
quote:
Timo006 wrote:
Just borrowing CSR's picture...

Master, does this Koan have the Buddha nature?


The reason I didn't answer Rabbit was I couldn't tell what all the details of the picture were, because it was a not very good JPG... I realised though that I can actually work out what the details are, so I will answer.

No it doesn't have the Buddha-nature.
10-17-2010 at 03:27 PM
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