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Caravel Forum : DROD Boards : Architecture : Krighton's Castle (Currently: Released! (As of 19-Apr-14))
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vinheim
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File: KC Sixth Floor 1S1W Victory.demo (1.8 KB)
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6th level
1S 1W: From the looks of things, do I have to lure the wraithwings into the areas with the roaches? Cause it looks possible without. Also, I did not hit the arrow rotator.
Really? That's an unintended solution. May I see a demo of you solving the room this way?
Attached is my demo. Note that I DID put the wraithwings with the roaches, but from the looks of things, the roaches could have been killed without (they would have been killed where the wraithwings were killed.
2W: Ok, the hold was awesome so far, but now I'm stuck. Surely, killing the goblins on the left and right are easy, but in order to get the other 2 goblins into the hot tile, I'd need something that isn't a roach on those plates, and there is only one mirror. Halph pathfinds to me with knowledge of how force arrows work so I can't trick the kid into pressing a plate for me. How do I solve this?
It relies on a nasty trick involving Halph and the mirror. Attached is a demo of the event in action.
That is nasty! Keep it in. :lol (but why does it happen?...)
EDIT: Just some quick comments. Still couldn't do 2W, so I solved the rest of the level using the editor. Solving 1W was awesome. Definitely keep it in. Also, why is 2W unrequired? Lastly, why do you have those tunnels leading to 5th floor? Since 6th floor HAS to be completed before even getting to the main part of 7th floor, there is no real use of those tunnels (unless there is some story reason for it).
I'm glad you liked Once West. That was a bit of a tough one to make and I worried nobody else would be able to solve it. Twice West shouldn't be unrequired, so that has been fixed. Lastly, the tunnel in Once North is there because it leads to a roach in the inaccessible part of the Fifth Floor entrance, allowing you to kill it and be closer to solving the room. To advance to the Eighth Floor (just the waiting room in this case), you need to complete both the Sixth and Seventh Floors, go through each tunnel, kill both roaches, and return to the Fifth Floor to go down the stairs. An interesting event occurs when you're about to walk down that no one should miss... ;)
Well, I just ran into 1W, killed golems while analyzing the situation and when I saw those green doors, I told myself, "no way..". This was a unique room making me get 2 golems at the tip of my sword. One to block the 2nd golem with its corpse, and the second to pathfind its way all the way around me. Definitely very fun.

Hmm... well, I'll be waiting for the update then. The hold has a nice feel to it so far. It seems like a sort of gradual tutorial for people who aren't efficient to get even more efficient. And so far, it has been difficult all throughout, so that's great.
12-05-2010 at 10:21 PM
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vinheim
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File: KC Sixth Floor 1S2W Victory.demo (1.2 KB)
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Additional Comments
I'm particularly proud of this demo of 1S2W. I don't think it's possible to be more optimized than this.
12-05-2010 at 10:32 PM
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12th Archivist
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Interesting solution. Looking at your demo, I noticed I had neglected a certain part of the room. That has been fixed, but I won't worry about your solution. It doesn't deviate significantly from the intended one.

As for your optimized demo, well done! That's not quite my solution, but it is one variation of the intended solution.

The Halph trick in twice west seems to be possible due to how Halph reacts to obstacles in his way. I don't know the specifics, but TFMurphy or Mike do.

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12-05-2010 at 11:34 PM
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Zorglub
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Am I missing something or the stairs in Fourth floor: The Entrance still end the hold? I can't seem to be able to go further. I completed Fifth except 2N1W which I seem to have to do from the North. And now I don't see how I can go further.
Z
12-13-2010 at 03:40 PM
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vinheim
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Just got around to finishing levels 4 and 5 and I think levels 6 and 7 should be put before them as they are easier.

The rooms were difficult and some required me to really think about the way I do things (level 5 1S2E), but they are doable after some tries so it wasn't too frustrating which is good. All rooms were good, but the most notable ones were:

Level 5:
2N - Unique restriction puzzle
2E - Fun efficiency puzzle
2S1E - Just plain evil, but doable

Level 4:
3N1E - I've seen this in a Boyblue hold, but it was still fun to play this variant where I had to have all plates pressed quickly after the first, and then quickly exit.

No unintended solutions this time (from those 2 levels I've played).
12-17-2010 at 09:54 AM
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12th Archivist
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It has taken a while, but the Eighth Floor is here! This time, puzzles revolve around tarstuff of the tar and mud varieties! All the puzzles more or less revolve around the proper handling.

Is there anything else to say? Probably, but I have forgotten it by now.

New version in the first post. Enjoy!

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12-24-2010 at 06:20 AM
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Shendy
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I found in the editor that the stairs in the Fifth Floor that should lead to the Eighth Floor goes to the hold end.
12-24-2010 at 12:43 PM
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Shendy wrote:
I found in the editor that the stairs in the Fifth Floor that should lead to the Eighth Floor goes to the hold end.
I went through all the stairs in the hold and fixed the two that were ending the hold, including the one you noticed. New version in the first post.

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12-24-2010 at 05:39 PM
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vinheim
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Backtracking problems:

Without tarstuff-cutting trick:
2S to 1S - Yellow door blocks way to Entrance when coming from 2S.

With tarstuff-cutting trick:
2S to 1S - Green door blocks the way back.
12-26-2010 at 01:09 AM
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Zorglub
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8/1N1W: a very short snake can be manipulated to trigger the PP, without bothering to lengthen it.
8/1N1E: I can turn on the tunnel. I use 6 decoys to kill the snakes, and I don't use the remaining 4. Is this intended?
01-06-2011 at 09:51 AM
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Shendy
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I think there is an unintended solution for Fifth Floor 2S1W. It is possible to enter from the east and thus made the puzzle easier as you won't get the invisibility.

[Last edited by Shendy at 01-07-2011 04:28 AM : Make it better]
01-07-2011 at 04:23 AM
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12th Archivist
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Zorglub wrote:
8/1N1W: a very short snake can be manipulated to trigger the PP, without bothering to lengthen it.
Not an error.

8/1N1E: I can turn on the tunnel. I use 6 decoys to kill the snakes, and I don't use the remaining 4. Is this intended?
You are not supposed to turn on the tunnel (now enforced with an arrow). How are you using the decoys to kill the snakes? The intended solution is to use the decoys to destroy the broken orbs.

I think there is an unintended solution for Fifth Floor 2S1W. It is possible to enter from the east and thus made the puzzle easier as you won't get the invisibility.
Fixed. There is now an invisibility potion at the east entrance tile.

New version is... not up. I am still working on the Ninth and Tenth Floors. Since none of these are gamebreaking errors (save for the one vinheim mentioned), the newly released version will be posted when either the Ninth or Tenth Floors are completed.

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01-07-2011 at 04:33 AM
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Zorglub
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12th Archivist wrote:
You are not supposed to turn on the tunnel (now enforced with an arrow). How are you using the decoys to kill the snakes? The intended solution is to use the decoys to destroy the broken orbs.

I had 3 decoys for each snake, all of them with their sword on the exit to the area. The adder goes straight out, only eating 2 mud babies, and is facing 3 swords.

I need 3 decoys to go through the orb part.
01-07-2011 at 11:37 AM
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The reason for the inactivity for the last six months is that I decided to scrap the original Ninth Level when I was most of the way done with it in favor of a design that was absolutely better. Because of its size, I shall release sections of it at a time. As a preview, you get introduced to two new major characters, 39th makes a comeback in a variety of puzzles even more devilish than in the Third Level, and Halph dies in a cutscene I spent many hours on to ensure it was at least high-quality, even if it seemed cheesy or melodramatic.

This post is just to let you know that there is indeed still a driver at the front of this hold and that architecture speed in gaining steadily. The new version shall probably be out within the week.

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06-17-2011 at 09:09 AM
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Penwielder
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I played the most recent version a while ago. I got through the first two levels, and I really liked it. Unfortunately, I haven't played JtRH yet, so my experience with slayers is minimal, and I consequently came to a sudden stop on the third level.

Due to that, I won't be of much use in the testing process yet, but I'm glad to see that you're still around. This might motivate me to go give it another try.

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06-18-2011 at 01:24 AM
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12th Archivist
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A long, long time has passed since the last update, but the Ninth Floor is... partially here!

Currently, it has a few puzzles and a bit of characterization. Some of the puzzles certainly are a bit harder than the previous ones, particularly regarding slayer manipulation, but they are not at all numerous, at the moment. About half of the first part has content, with the other half mulling around in my mind and the other two parts getting more and more interesting as I ponder them. I redesigned the Ninth Level to facilitate these parts *properly*, since they would have needed proper treatment to do well.

In minor news, the western secret room of First Level has been moved to the Fourth Level and properly redesigned to fit the graphical theme of the rest of the level.

What took most of my time was the changing of Castle Exterior. I was originally quite ambitious for this part, but decided to store my ideas away for the future. Because of this, the level has been simplified.

Finally, I changed the story from "You have suffered a whole bunch because of King Krighton and decide to get revenge on him" to something simpler but easier to grow on (at least, in terms of story expressed through the medium of gameplay). Only the speech and entrance text from Castle Exterior have been altered to fit the new story, so there will be a sudden plot conflict between the first two levels. This will be addressed in the next update.

Enjoy the rather minimal content and comment on what you think of the hold. I will be working diligently to make future updates more common and with more packaging.

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06-28-2011 at 12:35 PM
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Chaco
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File: KC First Floor 1W Victory.demo (1.2 KB)
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icon Re: Krighton's Castle (+1)  
I think the new First Floor: Once West is pretty interesting.

You may also be interested to know that it can be completed without using any of the tunnels. A victory demo is attached.

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[Last edited by Chaco at 07-08-2011 03:21 AM]
07-08-2011 at 03:21 AM
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Chaco
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File: KC Fourth Floor 10N1E finished.demo (4.7 KB)
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I'm not entirely sure you tested Fourth Floor: Tonce North Once East before you put it into the hold.

In my opinion, we have way too many of these puzzles already, where many, many platforms have to be moved a long distance and fitted into a rectangle. It was cute and interesting when The City Beneath had a puzzle like that, because they stuck with tetromino pieces, which is a well-defined area where solutions for packing have been known for a long time, the pieces are familiar, and the set of pieces and the solution set is pretty small.

This puzzle, on the other hand, has 22 pieces (compare 10 tetrominoes in Echo Chasms), ranging from 1 unit to 6 units in size. Although there are more solutions, there's also much more guesswork involved in how to move everything around.

After I finally put a solution into the room (detailed in this demo) I find that the guards don't fry as neatly as they're supposed to - even when I stand as far North and directly West of the guards as possible, on the tunnel, the North-facing guard turns southwest to face Beethro before he gets to the hot tile, disrupting the guard movement and keeping the guards from dying before the briar escapes.

This leads me to believe that you messed around with the briar timing or the room layout and didn't bother testing the room out, in full, either because you thought it was too tedious or you didn't want to test the room for a seemingly obvious change.

I'm frustrated and I feel like my time has been wasted, is what I'm saying.

Now, I'm not trying to take a dig at you as an architect. There's a lot of great rooms both in this level, the Fourth Level, and in the rest of the hold. But I really don't like this room and I would like you, as a tester and as an architect, to either rework it so it requires less work (for example, pre-placing a large number of the pieces), rework it so it's more interesting (for example, making it difficult somehow to transport the pieces from point A to point B) or otherwise replace or remove the room.

Otherwise you're going to leave a really tedious room that I didn't think was much fun, in the hold, even if you do fix it. And I'd hate to see a lousy room in an otherwise good hold.

==

I'll post some notes on the Sixth Level when I get to it and complete it - I think the Fifth Level is as far as I got the last time I played the hold.

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[Last edited by Chaco at 07-09-2011 01:51 PM]
07-09-2011 at 01:42 PM
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Chaco
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There are some nice puzzles on the Fifth Level! I didn't solve all of them last time, but I conquered all of them this time.

I really liked rooms like Twice North, Twice North Once East and Twice South Once East that took familiar premises, added some new elements to make them more interesting and difficult, and required some strategy and planning to do properly.

I liked Once South Twice West as a room requiring careful control of how quickly to release the goblins. I find it quite merciful that the conquer token is there, which means I don't have to worry about the layout of the pits in the main room slowing down the briar a whole lot and inflating my score while I wait for cleanup. The room would be much harder (and go faster) if those trapdoors were over water instead of over pit.

-

One thing about Twice South Once West though: it's possible to enter from the east entrance, step on the Conquer token, then do the main work of clearing the room. This doesn't make the room any easier, but it does render highscores a moot point since everyone will take 7 moves to step on the token, then an arbitrary number to clear the room. I think this might actually be one room where the conquer token might be unnecessary.

==

Finally, one note about Sixth Floor: Once South - I was unable to conquer this room because after I went through the detour to the Seventh Level and cleared out Sixth Level Twice East and Once East, Halph didn't appear in Once South, although he did in many other rooms on the Sixth Floor.

I checked in the editor and I think this might be because the scripting for the Halph entrance squares is different in Once South than it is for the other rooms.

EDIT:

Also, for Sixth Floor: Twice South, waterskipper nests can indeed spawn waterskippers on top of force arrows, so you may want to replace those force arrows in the southwest corner of the room with obstacles, so the nests don't spawn waterskippers that the briar can't kill.

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[Last edited by Chaco at 07-09-2011 04:59 PM]
07-09-2011 at 04:37 PM
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12th Archivist
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Chaco wrote:
I'm not entirely sure you tested Fourth Floor: Tonce North Once East before you put it into the hold.
No, I did not test whether or not changing the orientation of the room would mess it up.
I'm frustrated and I feel like my time has been wasted, is what I'm saying.
It was not intentional, I assure you.
Otherwise you're going to leave a really tedious room that I didn't think was much fun, in the hold, even if you do fix it. And I'd hate to see a lousy room in an otherwise good hold.
When I made the room, I viewed it as a bit of a novelty; a puzzle that would be somewhat interesting to players the first time they went through it, but never again. However, seeing as how I seemed to have dramatically underestimated the tedium and difficulty of the room, I have reduced the size of the platform area as well as change the number of platforms to seven and make each platform be eight tiles in size.
[Once South Twice West] would be much harder (and go faster) if those trapdoors were over water instead of over pit.
I could do that, but since it would make the room inappropriately difficult for the level, I would rather not.
I think this might actually be one room where the conquer token might be unnecessary.
Agreed and changed.
Finally, one note about Sixth Floor: Once South - I was unable to conquer this room because after I went through the detour to the Seventh Level and cleared out Sixth Level Twice East and Once East, Halph didn't appear in Once South, although he did in many other rooms on the Sixth Floor.

I checked in the editor and I think this might be because the scripting for the Halph entrance squares is different in Once South than it is for the other rooms.
I was experimenting with better Halph code (with the current code, the player can make multiple Halphs appear on the room edge), but the code failed. I then promptly forgot about it and did not remove it before releasing the current version. All Halph codes are now back to their exploitable but otherwise reliable state.

Also noteworthy is that if the player enters Sixth Floor: The Entrance with Halph and walks down the stairs, Halph will wait for you at the top. No more hunting for one of his spawn points to make him appear!
Also, for Sixth Floor: Twice South, waterskipper nests can indeed spawn waterskippers on top of force arrows, so you may want to replace those force arrows in the southwest corner of the room with obstacles, so the nests don't spawn waterskippers that the briar can't kill.
Fixed.

===========

I shall update the first post with the fixed version later tonight. Thank you very much for your testing, Chaco. I greatly appreciate seeing some interest in my work.

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[Last edited by 12th Archivist at 07-10-2011 04:05 AM]
07-10-2011 at 04:05 AM
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icon Re: Krighton's Castle (+2)  
New version!

Change list:
Click here to view the secret text


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07-10-2011 at 07:13 AM
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Shendy
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First, the stairs which are supposed to go to the Fourth Floor, both from the Third Floor and the warp zone, leads to the hold end

Oh, and the cutscene when you enter Fifth Floor from the Fourth Floor never ends.
07-11-2011 at 06:02 AM
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da rogu3
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Hi. I haven't completed this, but there are a few points I would like to make.

The first level doesn't seem that fun - almost all are full of roach queens. Generally, rooms like that aren't very exciting (and Beethro's thoughts in 1S2W reflect exactly what I thought - it looks random and unplanned). Playing in the editor, there are lots of interesting and fun rooms scattered around in later levels, but there are also a few rooms where you know what needs to be done, but the implementation takes too long. (and there's even a few that look directly copied and pasted from other holds - like Eighth Floor 1N1E)

The hold seems bigger than most other holds, and unless there is something really captivating about the puzzles, I'm not sure I would be patient enough to play through all of it. One thing I would suggest to do, is to play the entire hold yourself, in normal mode, from start to finish, and if there are any rooms which you don't want to play because they take too long or are boring, then remove or rework them completely. With a hold this size, I know it would take several hours, but it would really pay off.

Sorry if all that sounded too critical, I'm not trying to be harsh, but that is my honest opinion about this hold.

[Last edited by da rogu3 at 07-17-2011 11:42 PM]
07-16-2011 at 02:15 AM
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12th Archivist
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da rogu3 wrote:
Hi. I haven't completed this, but there are a few points I would like to make.
Always glad to hear some opinions. This is what the Architecture board is all about, after all. :)

I don't like the entrance room in the first floor. It took dozens of attempts, and I only eventually solved it in the editor, with lots of undo-ing. Unless there's something obvious I've missed, requiring such a specific solution isn't a great idea (because it's impossible to plan ahead, and the room is total trial-and-error). If you want to keep the room I'd suggest another checkpoint, outside the alcove you start in.
Um, do you mean the room I think you mean? I think the room is really, really easy and straightforward (sort of like the first part of KDD, Fourth Level, Once North; just move forward, move back two spaces and kill some roaches. Rinse and repeat.) Could you explain a bit more?

I attempted the rest of the rooms in that level, and almost all are full of roach queens. Generally, rooms like that aren't very exciting (and Beethro's thoughts in 1S2W reflect exactly what I thought - it looks random and unplanned).
That room was a scattershot, but I like it since it forces the player to tackle the room a different way than expected.
Playing in the editor, there are lots of interesting and fun rooms scattered around in later levels, but there are also a few rooms where you know what needs to be done, but the implementation takes too long.
Could you give an example of a few? Rooms with not-too-long implementations are more common and likable, but I also dislike the long, tedious ones.
(and there's even a few that look directly copied and pasted from other holds - like Eighth Floor 1N1E)
It was a bit of a placeholder room until I found a better room to take its place. Problem solved, I guess.
The hold seems bigger than most other holds, and unless there is something really captivating about the puzzles, I'm not sure I would be patient enough to play through all of it.
Maybe people will enjoy my puzzles and want to delve deeper for more. I know if Chaco made an easy, fun, twenty-level-long hold I would keep coming back. However, you are not me, and not to mention that not everything in here is totally amazing. I will consider reducing the length of the hold, certainly, so as not to bore the player.
One thing I would suggest to do, is to play the entire hold yourself, in normal mode, from start to finish, and if there are any rooms which you don't want to play because they take too long or are boring, then remove or rework them completely. With a hold this size, I know it would take several hours, but it would really pay off.
Will do! Thanks for the tip. All architects should do this, including me.
Sorry if all that sounded too critical, I'm not trying to be harsh, but that is my honest opinion about this hold.
That did sound rather harsh, but I did not take it personally. I am here to build the hold, you are here to test the hold, and together, we try to make the hold as excellent as possible. I will be very happy with anyone that tests the hold, even if they say it could use improvement.

PREPOST EDIT: I realize that some of my responses might sound sarcastic and rude. They are not meant to be that way. I accept and consider all of your words. No, really, I am not being sarcastic.

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07-16-2011 at 05:59 AM
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da rogu3
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Um, do you mean the room I think you mean? I think the room is really, really easy and straightforward (sort of like the first part of KDD, Fourth Level, Once North; just move forward, move back two spaces and kill some roaches. Rinse and repeat.) Could you explain a bit more?
You're right, I'm totally wrong there, I never went back inside the alcove after leaving (thought there was an arrow there) :blush It would make a very tricky optional challenge.
That did sound rather harsh, but I did not take it personally. I am here to build the hold, you are here to test the hold, and together, we try to make the hold as excellent as possible. I will be very happy with anyone that tests the hold, even if they say it could use improvement.
Yeah, I might've sounded a little stronger than I would've liked, mainly because I was focusing on all the bad points. When I've played a bit more of the hold, I'll list all of the rooms which I do like, and what is good about the hold. (this hold isn't easy, it's fairly difficult, so trying to finish everything takes a very long time.

Edit: Notes for First Floor, will post more comments later-
1W - cleaning up the goblins was a bit tedious
2W - no puzzle here, but there's too many roach queens. This type of room could be done in AE, and isn't that fun.
1N2W - this is a good room, because it spices things up a little. Although I did feel that some of the arrows on the right half of the room are not needed, they just drag out the room for longer.
1S2W - okay room
1S1W - good, nice easy puzzle
1N - tedious hack-n-slash room
1E - this is interesting, because of the mimic. Used the mimic to drop the trapdoors
2N - good (although I've seen the concept used in other holds)
1S - a bit pointless (and the scripting doesn't really work)
1N1E - favourite room on this level, because of the way you have to use both roaches

Second Floor:
En - is the timer needed here? Never thought about it, and it doesn't add much challenge to the room, you just have to eliminate wall bumps.
1N1E - bit messy to clear out all the roaches after opening the red doors. (maybe add a few open red doors to reduce the spawn later?) And I think you went a bit overboard with the checkpoints here, it would be better to have them on floor tiles, so they don't become unaccessable later.
1N2W - alright, but the queens just drag out the room for much longer
1S1W - normally I hate this type of room, but this one wasn't bad, because of the tunnel
1W - another hack n slash room which looks unoriginal, and there's just too many monsters here.
1N1W - very easy, but good room
1E - I skipped this, will come back to it later
2N - okay, but not too original
1N - haven't played this yet, will comment later

I've skipped the Third Floor for now, because I can't do Slayer manipulation.
No, really, I am not being sarcastic.
Heh, ironic how that's the most sarcastic sounding thing in your post ;)

[Last edited by da rogu3 at 07-16-2011 11:43 PM]
07-16-2011 at 10:14 AM
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da rogu3
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Fourth Floor
This is where things start to get much more interesting, and I liked the puzzles here much more than earlier ones. Don't really have much bad to say about them.
En - quite easy, but good
1E - this wasn't overloaded with queens, so I liked it
1N1E - very nice puzzle! 1 bomb killed 2 queens and a roach, and the other killed 3 roaches
2N1E - You might want to increase the briar timer here, to make the room more tricky. (I was over 30 moves ahead)
3N1E - another nice and varied room.
4N1E - unintended solution? Guard died immediately, and goblins easily die when I hide in the alcoves.
5N1E - nice
6N1E - found this one okay-ish. The contant barrage of roaches got annoying, though :/
7N1E - this is one of the rooms which I think might be a bit too tedious, it takes too long to dispose of the middle waterskipper nests
8N1E - not even gonna try this, and I doubt others will even find it fun.

Edit: btw, if you feel my comments aren't useful or helpful, tell me and I'll stop.

[Last edited by da rogu3 at 07-18-2011 12:48 AM : added more detail]
07-16-2011 at 11:41 PM
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Good afternoon, folks.

I have released the new version. It contains no (or very little) new content, but is still worth its own update. You will see why. :)

CHANGE LOG:
Click here to view the secret text


I am working on the Sixth Floor (originally the Tenth Floor, since the Ninth Floor has also been removed) and will release a version containing the first few rooms fairly soon.

Enjoy! :D

____________________________
It was going well until it exploded.
~Scott Manley

Check out the DROD Wikia project here!
09-25-2011 at 10:26 PM
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Wow. "Soon" became three weeks.

Sorry for that terrible delay. I have a few rooms of the Sixth Floor here. This level shows off a few puzzles that include citizens! (That is, citizens that move from one relay station to the next, sometimes with persistence tokens, sometimes without.) I hope it is fun.

____________________________
It was going well until it exploded.
~Scott Manley

Check out the DROD Wikia project here!
10-18-2011 at 04:46 AM
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Attached to the first post is the second part of the Sixth Floor.

Enjoy.

____________________________
It was going well until it exploded.
~Scott Manley

Check out the DROD Wikia project here!
11-17-2011 at 01:21 PM
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The first floor has had a few rooms changed, the hold has had some speech added (including the level descriptions), and the Sixth Floor has been completed.

EDIT: Oh, yeah, and the story line changed again, though this is far less important than the content.

____________________________
It was going well until it exploded.
~Scott Manley

Check out the DROD Wikia project here!

[Last edited by 12th Archivist at 11-20-2011 07:29 PM]
11-20-2011 at 07:27 PM
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