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jbluestein
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quote:
Jatopian wrote:
Er... doesn't posting who can refute take out most of the ability to lie?


Just to more clearly address this:

Your ability to lie in this game is fairly constrained, given that, if a guess makes it to you that you can refute, you are obligated to do so. So while having the KotE say who can refute takes some of the suspense out of the equation, it doesn't actually change the rules of the game.

What would be wrong, however, would be if the KotE were to say more than who the next person who is able to refute is. With my guess above, the KotE should not be able to say 'this guess can be refuted by Snacko or Jatopian' -- only the first person in line to refute (who is obligated by the rules to actually refute) should be outed.

But maybe everyone already figured that out.

Josh

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04-01-2010 at 12:15 AM
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Snacko
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I cannot refute.

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04-01-2010 at 12:46 AM
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Jatopian
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I can refute the idea that Maurog killed via snark in Forum Games.

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04-01-2010 at 02:13 AM
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jbluestein
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quote:
Jatopian wrote:
I can refute the idea that Maurog killed via snark in Forum Games.


Refute that idea!

(I believe that this is the point at which the refuter (Jatopian) PMs the guesser (jbluestein) with exactly one piece of information that he holds -- either Maurog, snark or Forum Games.)

Josh

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04-01-2010 at 02:36 AM
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noma
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So to avoid the advantage that stigant referred to earlier, the next guesser (in this case me) should not post their guess until the previous guesser (jbluestein) lets us know that they have received the refuted information, right?
04-01-2010 at 04:03 AM
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stigant
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I would think that since Jatopian posted that he can refute, he probably should/would have sent the appropriate info to jbluestein. But yeah, if (and this may not be necessary if, say the first or second person after the guesser can refute and does so before KotE sees the guess post) the KotE steps in to tell us who will refute, the next guesser should wait until the all clear sign is given.

EDIT:
quote:
Your ability to lie in this game is fairly constrained, given that, if a guess makes it to you that you can refute, you are obligated to do so. So while having the KotE say who can refute takes some of the suspense out of the equation, it doesn't actually change the rules of the game.

Lying in Clue is:
a) explicitly against the rules
b) makes the game unplayable (and is therefore against the rules) - why would anybody ever reveal ANY information? You can't even bargain for information because doing so would weaken your position by revealing that you have some to trade.

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[Last edited by stigant at 04-01-2010 04:28 AM]
04-01-2010 at 04:24 AM
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zex20913
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Everybody is on a correctness streak. The original guesser should state the status of the refutal in thread once accomplished.

The next guesser should wait for said status statement.

And I think things will go smoothly with the "next in line with refutal" statements from KotE, if we catch it in time.

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04-01-2010 at 04:31 AM
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RoboBob3000
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quote:
stigant wrote:
Lying in Clue is:
a) explicitly against the rules
b) makes the game unplayable (and is therefore against the rules) - why would anybody ever reveal ANY information? You can't even bargain for information because doing so would weaken your position by revealing that you have some to trade.
I've actually heard that lying can make for a great variation on the game. Just make it so every player is allowed to tell exactly one lie. I've never played it myself, though.

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[Last edited by RoboBob3000 at 04-01-2010 04:43 AM]
04-01-2010 at 04:42 AM
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jbluestein
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Jatopian has refuted my guess. noma is now free to make her guess.

(My assumption is that this step won't be necessary in the future as the refuter will just post 'I have refuted'.)

Josh

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04-01-2010 at 10:34 AM
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jbluestein
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quote:
stigant wrote:

EDIT:
quote:
Your ability to lie in this game is fairly constrained, given that, if a guess makes it to you that you can refute, you are obligated to do so. So while having the KotE say who can refute takes some of the suspense out of the equation, it doesn't actually change the rules of the game.

Lying in Clue is:
a) explicitly against the rules
b) makes the game unplayable (and is therefore against the rules) - why would anybody ever reveal ANY information? You can't even bargain for information because doing so would weaken your position by revealing that you have some to trade.


It's quite true that lying in Clue is prohibited. However, there's a spectrum of behavior that's commonly seen in FtF plays of games like Clue, which I would refer to as 'bluffing'. When it's your turn, you're obligated to act truthfully, but when it's not your turn, idle comments that can be misinterpreted can lead others into drawing false conclusions.

Of course, I generally assume that people talking like that are 'bluffing' and ignore them...

Josh

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04-01-2010 at 02:03 PM
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noma
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Ah ha! Mr. Forum was killed in the DROD Feature Request board with heavy trolling. And I confess. I did it.
04-01-2010 at 09:14 PM
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Penwielder
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Presence in board guessed verified.

...so am I supposed to spout who, if anyone, can refute? Or do I wait 24 hours? It's unclear. In the case of the latter, should I use unhidetime tags?

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[Last edited by Penwielder at 04-01-2010 09:19 PM]
04-01-2010 at 09:18 PM
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jbluestein
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Penwielder wrote:
...so am I supposed to spout who, if anyone, can refute? Or do I wait 24 hours? It's unclear. In the case of the latter, should I use unhidetime tags?


There's no need to wait.

You should, at this point, look through the turn order:

snacko
Jatopian
stigant
Maurog
jbluestein
noma

and post only the name of the first person in that order who is able to refute some part of the guess. The idea is simply that you're saving the time required for first snacko to check messages, say he can't refute, then Jatopian to do the same, and so on, until someone actually can refute. This allows the first person who can refute to just go ahead and refute without having to wait for the people who can't to chime in with negatives.

I may seem like I'm overemphasizing this, but it's really important: you should only be revealing one person -- it would completely break the game to say 'well, snacko, Jatopian or jbluestein could refute that...snacko's turn!' Just my paranoia at work.

Josh

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04-01-2010 at 09:28 PM
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Penwielder
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Just my paranoia at work.

I would be too. Well, maybe I am even so. I'm trying to be very careful.

Stigant: You are up for the refute. Please post when you have done so. The next player may then make a guess (or 'suggestion', as I'm told the original game called it).

Also: I appreciated that (J?)jbluestein made the elements of his guess stand out.

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04-01-2010 at 09:47 PM
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stigant
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I have refuted the accusation.

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04-01-2010 at 11:35 PM
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noma
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And stigant has clearly explained that I (noma) did not kill Mr. Forum in the DROD Feature Requests board with heavy trolling.
04-01-2010 at 11:43 PM
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zex20913
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Whoa there, Maurog. Noma was the previous guesser, so now it's Snacko's turn to guess. Refuting does not effect the turn order.

Currently, we are waiting for Snacko's guess.

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04-02-2010 at 01:45 PM
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Maurog
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Roger that.

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04-02-2010 at 01:57 PM
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Snacko
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I'll guess that I (Snacko) did it with A Mean Private Message in Forum Games.

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[Last edited by Snacko at 04-03-2010 12:32 AM]
04-02-2010 at 04:39 PM
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jbluestein
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quote:
Snacko wrote:
I'll guess that I (Snacko) did it with A Mean Private Message in Electronic Games.


Ummm...Electronic Games?

Do you, perchance, mean Forum Games? Only because Electronic Games isn't a suspect location.

Josh

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[Last edited by jbluestein at 04-02-2010 06:57 PM]
04-02-2010 at 04:50 PM
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noma
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Since a new post wasn't made, our KotE may not have noticed that Snacko has revised his guess. So who's the first person who can refute: Jatopian, stigant, Maurog, jbluestein, noma or Snacko?




04-03-2010 at 01:29 AM
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Penwielder
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Ah! I saw your guess before the edit, and let it go for the sake of clarity. Glad I checked again.

Jatopian is up for the refute.

EDIT: Post collision. Interestingly.

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[Last edited by Penwielder at 04-03-2010 01:35 AM]
04-03-2010 at 01:35 AM
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Jatopian
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Yes indeed, he's wrong because Electronic Games is not one of the locations. And one other reason also.

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04-03-2010 at 03:14 AM
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Penwielder
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It's your turn to guess, as well, Jatopian. In case you didn't realize.

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04-03-2010 at 07:17 PM
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Jatopian
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I speculate loudly, in a pointed and snippy manner, that it was jbluestein in Anything with a bad hold that made it through the HA process.

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04-03-2010 at 08:29 PM
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Penwielder
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Stigant, who would be first in line anyhow, should refute.
Is that worth posting?

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[Last edited by Penwielder at 04-03-2010 09:32 PM]
04-03-2010 at 09:30 PM
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zex20913
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I'd say it is worth posting. Just for consistency if nothing else.

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04-03-2010 at 10:03 PM
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stigant
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I have refuted Jatopian and since he seems to know so much about Mr. Forum's murder: je accuse! je accuse!

I accuse:
Jatopian with a Snarky PM in the Forum Games forum.

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04-03-2010 at 10:29 PM
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Penwielder
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Are you sure you meant to accuse? By traditional clue rules, you are now out of the game. But the instructions said nothing of this, so I'll take it as a guess.

Go ahead, Maurog. And throw in a guess, too, once you've refuted.

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04-03-2010 at 10:51 PM
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Jatopian
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I'm not sure whether "snarky PM" should parse as "snarky comment to a newcomer" or "mean private message".

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04-03-2010 at 11:02 PM
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