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jbluestein
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icon Reflectorations: Our April Contest (+10)  
[EDIT: Submissions have closed for this contest.]

I realize that this would be an appropriate place for some clever flavor text, in which I detailed a new, hitherto-undiscovered realm of the Eighth which somehow prized the attributes we're hoping to bring forth in this contest.

Let's just pretend I did that and move on, shall we? We have serious matters to discuss.

The Forum needs to revitalize. One of the things that helps keep it alive is the parade of new and interesting contests. It keeps people thinking about DROD, keeps people playing DROD, and also a good contest is lots of fun. So, we're going to have another contest, which I have named: Reflectorations! (OK, well, Reflections was already taken, and Zch and Kallor used the Mirror theme in GJL, so I was out of real words that I could think of to use.)

The rules: Each contest participant will create a small hold, containing at least one but no more than six pairs of puzzle rooms. Each pair of rooms must contain exactly the same working space and elements, but the rooms must differ in orientation -- horizontal reflection, vertical reflection, diagonal reflection, rotation -- you get to choose how you're going to do it. The goal is to present two rooms that are identical save orientation but that present two entirely different solutions.

I will set up a submission topic for this contest sometime in April. The submission topic will remain open until April 16th, after which there will commence a two-week judging period. All holds submitted must be Anyone-readable -- any holds submitted that aren't won't be eligible.

[EDIT: The submission topic may be found here.]

Judging criteria: As this is an architecture contest, holds will be judged on quality. This needn't mean difficulty. I would expect an entertaining but easy hold to do better than a boring but incredibly hard hold (but that's personal bias -- everyone is free to vote as they see fit). The main thing people should be looking at is the effect of the differing orientations of the rooms. If two rooms are solvable in the same way regardless of the orientation, this should be ranked lower than two rooms with markedly different solutions.

At the end of the judging period, the architect with the highest-ranked submission will receive 100 rank points and a pick from the prize pile.
The architect with the second highest-ranked submission will receive 50 rank points.
The architect with the third highest-ranked submission will receive 25 rank points.

In addition, any new contest participants (if you have never entered a Forum contest before) will automatically receive a 10 rank point bonus, independent of the outcome of the voting. (This does, however, require a valid submission...)

But wait!!! That's not all!

In the interest of promoting contest participation, I will be personally guaranteeing every architect who submits a valid entry to this contest a bonus of five (5) rank points. It needs to be a legitimate entry, where 'legitimate' means that it should be obvious that you actually put some effort into the submission rather than slapping together two rooms for the purpose of getting five easy rank points. But I don't think anyone would actually do that, would they?

Obvious questions:

Q) Suppose I want to present a single room that I manipulate in more than one way? (Basic room, horizontal reflection, vertical reflection)

A) This is allowed. The primary limitation you should observe is that the entire hold should not consist of more than twelve puzzle rooms -- I want to give everyone enough time to play through all of the contest holds. So if you want to do three quads instead of six pairs, that's fine as well.

Q) I don't think I really understand the premise of this contest.

A) Take a look at Jacob's Reflections hold, and also at the level Rorrim Rorrim in Zch & Kallor's Gigantic Jewel Lost hold.

Q) What about movement order? Do reflected rooms have to preserve movement order of monsters/characters/mimics?

A) Absolutely. If your priority 1 creature is in a particular square in a given room, then the reflection of that room needs to have the priority 1 creature in the analogous space. If you have a room and its reflection, then you should be able to (theoretically) reflect the original room along its axis (or rotate it, or whatever) and generate what is PRECISELY its reflection/rotation.

Obviously, screen dimension issues mean you can't just rotate any room 90 degrees and have something that fits, but the space in which the puzzle exists is what we're really concerned about here. Common sense rules should apply, and if you have a question, ask!

Q) Is this a DROD or DROD: RPG contest?

A) This is a DROD contest. Contest entries must be playable in the latest released version of DROD: TCB and should be judged in that context.

I think that about covers it.

Ready? Set? Pause! Reflect!


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[Last edited by jbluestein at 04-17-2010 09:52 AM]
03-22-2010 at 02:40 PM
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techant
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icon Re: Reflectorations: Our April Contest (+1)  
Very Cool | looC yreV


I really like that it is not about who makes the hardest, most clever puzzle as I always do bad with that. :lol And I like that it is all the various reflection possibilities.

As I begin I realize....did I miss it?...this is a hold using TCB DROD rather than RPG right?


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[Last edited by techant at 03-23-2010 04:40 AM]
03-22-2010 at 10:09 PM
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Tahnan
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Must it be strictly pairs, or can there be, say, triplets?

I'm not a particularly good architect, but I'll certainly try to give this a shot.
03-23-2010 at 05:38 AM
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jbluestein
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quote:
Tahnan wrote:
Must it be strictly pairs, or can there be, say, triplets?



Per question 1 above, you may indeed present your rooms as triplets or quads, subject only to the other restrictions: identical in all respects save orientation (and ideally solution) and no more than twelve puzzle rooms in all.

Josh

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03-23-2010 at 10:59 AM
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Penwielder
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icon Re: Reflectorations: Our April Contest (+1)  
Is entity movement order expected to be the same between relfectorated rooms, as well? I hope so. Especially with the subtleties present which make all the difference, a change in movement order could entirely alter the puzzle regardless of orientation.

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03-25-2010 at 09:11 PM
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Chaco
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quote:
Penwielder wrote:
Especially with the subtleties present which make all the difference, a change in movement order could entirely alter the puzzle regardless of orientation.


You would probably like bibelot's Deja vu... hold then.

===

This contest idea seems very interesting and creative to me, but I'm not sure as of yet whether or not I'll have time to create an entry and join the contest.

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03-26-2010 at 12:22 AM
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jbluestein
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quote:
Penwielder wrote:
Is entity movement order expected to be the same between relfectorated rooms, as well? I hope so. Especially with the subtleties present which make all the difference, a change in movement order could entirely alter the puzzle regardless of orientation.


A very good question. I will edit the Q&A above to clarify this.

To answer it here, I do mean completely identical. If you have a line of roaches:
12345


in one room, then your room reflected along a N/S axis had better have that same line of roaches looking like this:
54321


Josh

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03-26-2010 at 12:25 AM
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jbluestein
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quote:
techant wrote:
As I begin I realize....did I miss it?...this is a hold using TCB DROD rather than RPG right?



Yes. This is a TCB contest. Although, to be fair, there's nothing wrong with using the AE or JtRH engine to create your hold, as long as it's playable within the currently released version of TCB.

Josh

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03-26-2010 at 12:33 AM
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schep
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quote:
Penwielder wrote:
A change in movement order could entirely alter the puzzle regardless of orientation.

Even though you can't change the order of monsters or characters which you place in the rooms, it's interesting to note that compass direction does have an influence on the movement order of spawned monsters.

03-26-2010 at 03:11 AM
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Penwielder
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Yes indeed! As with rock giants when they break. That was the first idea I had to work with, but I threw it out once I had more interesting ones. There are many more possibilities than I first thought. Even arrow rotators would change the room completely if you flip it strictly element for element, as F7 or F8 would. There are far more interesting ones than that, though... I'm going to stop spouting ideas now.
...as if you need them anyway...

If rooms could be easily rotated, you could work with snake movement or vertical preference, but that would go against the contest anyhow, I would think.

Looking into that hold now, Chaco. Thank you for the suggestion.

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[Last edited by Penwielder at 03-26-2010 08:06 PM]
03-26-2010 at 08:03 PM
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jbluestein
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quote:
Penwielder wrote:
If rooms could be easily rotated, you could work with snake movement or vertical preference, but that would go against the contest anyhow, I would think.



I'm not sure why you think that dependency on snake movement preference would somehow violate the spirit of the contest. I certainly wouldn't consider it to do so.

You might, of course, incur the wrath of those people who dislike snake timing rooms...

Josh

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03-26-2010 at 08:27 PM
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12th Archivist
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I thought snake movement was very susceptible to reflections in a room. There was a very specific post regarding an awesome room someone made involving snake manipulation but it didn't work when they flipped the room so it fit with the level. I don't remember where the post was or who posted it, just that it once existed.

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03-26-2010 at 08:49 PM
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Penwielder
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I was referring to rotating rooms, as apposed to flipping them, being against the contest rules. I see now that I was rather unclear there. :blush

EDIT: (response to below) :( Wow. Guess I inferred too much based on the contest name. I need to be more careful.

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[Last edited by Penwielder at 03-27-2010 12:50 AM]
03-26-2010 at 09:31 PM
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jbluestein
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quote:
Penwielder wrote:
I was referring to rotating rooms, as apposed to flipping them, being against the contest rules. I see now that I was rather unclear there. :blush


Ah. Room rotation is explicitly allowed as part of the contest. Rotate, flip, rotate and flip...knock yourself out.

Josh

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03-26-2010 at 10:04 PM
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Casebier
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Flipping on the Y-Z and X-Z planes and rotating around the Z axis are allowed, but flipping on the X-Y plane is not allowed? :-( Because when I first read the rules, that was the first type of reflection I thought of...

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03-29-2010 at 08:13 PM
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jbluestein
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quote:
Casebier wrote:
Flipping on the Y-Z and X-Z planes and rotating around the Z axis are allowed, but flipping on the X-Y plane is not allowed? :-( Because when I first read the rules, that was the first type of reflection I thought of...


Casebier, I'm not really sure how you're defining things here. I usually think of flipping as across a line rather than across a plane, and for the moment I'm having trouble visualizing exactly what you mean by 'flipping on the X-Y plane'.

My intent in writing the rules of the contest was to allow for maximum flexibility. I don't believe that I've disallowed any type of reversible rotation or manipulation. But maybe I'm misunderstanding your question?

Perhaps you could provide some sort of example?

Thanks,
Josh

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03-29-2010 at 08:20 PM
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Tahnan
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quote:
Casebier wrote:
Flipping on the Y-Z and X-Z planes and rotating around the Z axis are allowed, but flipping on the X-Y plane is not allowed? :-( Because when I first read the rules, that was the first type of reflection I thought of...
Please do not make your hold come out of my computer screen.
03-29-2010 at 10:50 PM
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quote:
Tahnan wrote:
quote:
Casebier wrote:
Flipping on the Y-Z and X-Z planes and rotating around the Z axis are allowed, but flipping on the X-Y plane is not allowed? :-( Because when I first read the rules, that was the first type of reflection I thought of...
Please do not make your hold come out of my computer screen.


3D DROD (blue-magenta glasses) would be a good concept.

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03-29-2010 at 11:03 PM
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Casebier
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No, I was thinking more along the lines of puzzles that had the tiles inverted between solid and empty, or solid and platform, or platform and empty.

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03-30-2010 at 03:27 AM
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jbluestein
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quote:
Casebier wrote:
No, I was thinking more along the lines of puzzles that had the tiles inverted between solid and empty, or solid and platform, or platform and empty.


That's a nice idea, but I think it's not really the sort of alteration I had in mind. Maybe we can have an 'Inversions' contest, although I'm not sure that the possibilities are quite as great.

Josh

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03-30-2010 at 06:17 AM
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Chaco
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quote:
Casebier wrote:
No, I was thinking more along the lines of puzzles that had the tiles inverted between solid and empty, or solid and platform, or platform and empty.


You mean in a similar fashion to Deep Hold : Level Fifteen - The Kitchen : Entrance and Deep Hold : Level Fifteen - The Kitchen : 1 East?

I'm inclined to agree with jbluestein's appraisal of that sort of thing not fitting the spirit of the contest, but I wouldn't mind seeing more rooms of that sort.

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03-30-2010 at 09:45 PM
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jbluestein
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Administrative note: The submission topic is now active and can be found here. No need to rush or anything, but I just wanted y'all to know that it was up and running.

Josh

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03-31-2010 at 06:15 PM
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Ander
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I'm trying to think how you'd make unique solutions for a mirrored room, and the only way it makes sense is if the the player's entrance is if, say, the player enters from the left side in both cases. Is that against the spirit, or not?
04-01-2010 at 05:36 AM
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jbluestein
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quote:
Ander wrote:
I'm trying to think how you'd make unique solutions for a mirrored room, and the only way it makes sense is if the the player's entrance is if, say, the player enters from the left side in both cases. Is that against the spirit, or not?


Well, we must be careful here.

If you're talking about a room that is reflected along a N-S axis, then the idea would be to have any entrances reflected as well.

That means that if you have only one entrance in your room, it would have to be (for example) from the east in one and from the west in the other.

It's possible to have more than one entrance to a room, though. The spirit of things would suggest that you want the entrance you solve it from to be reflected as well, but I think I'll let the architect decide that.

But there are other ways to make things different. For example, an arrow rotator would have vastly different effects in a reflected room.

Josh

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04-01-2010 at 10:32 AM
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Jacob
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Two questions:

1) Are we allowed a set of four (or more) rooms?

2) How can one rotate a 31x37 tile room?

Plus: in response to Ander
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[Last edited by Jacob at 04-01-2010 11:41 PM]
04-01-2010 at 11:30 PM
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jbluestein
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quote:
Jacob wrote:
Two questions:

1) Are we allowed a set of four (or more) rooms?



By which I assume you mean: a set of four or more rooms, identical save for orientation.

Yes! If you can come up with a set of rooms that meets the criteria of the contest, there's no need to do it in pairs -- triples or quads or even more is fine.

quote:

2) How can one rotate a 31x37 tile room?



Ah well, I'm pretty sure I stated somewhere above that the puzzle portion of the room must be identical -- given the constraints of the screen, I wouldn't expect it to be possible for the entire room to be rotated.

Do you think this is problematic? I know it's not necessarily easy to perform a rotation, but it seemed worthwhile to include it as an option.

Josh

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04-02-2010 at 04:54 AM
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When We rotate a room to make a reflection (By using F7 or F8 or both), the solution of the room is the same, but just reflected too. I mean, If I have:

ENTRANCE>12345 (Numbers=Roaches)

54321<ENTRANCE

The solution is the same but in a different orientation. So, Do you mean this for "different solution"?
Otherwise I didn't understand how I can make a perfect reflection of a room.

EDIT: The only way to make the solution completely different is to have monsters like serpents, that have some strange movement order. And this give me troubles.

Thanks.

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[Last edited by Neather2 at 04-02-2010 01:02 PM]
04-02-2010 at 12:46 PM
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jbluestein
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quote:
Neather2 wrote:
When We rotate a room to make a reflection (By using F7 or F8 or both), the solution of the room is the same, but just reflected too. I mean, If I have:

ENTRANCE>12345 (Numbers=Roaches)

54321<ENTRANCE

The solution is the same but in a different orientation. So, Do you mean this for "different solution"?
Otherwise I didn't understand how I can make a perfect reflection of a room.

EDIT: The only way to make the solution completely different is to have monsters like serpents, that have some strange movement order. And this give me troubles.

Thanks.


I would not consider a symmetrical solution to be a particularly different one, no.

There are a variety of ways to make symmetrical rooms have actually different solutions. I gave pointers to two published holds that do this: Reflections and the Rorrim Rorrim level from Gigantic Jewel Lost.

I think it's probably harder to do straight N/S or E/W reflections and have different solutions, but you still have options. Consider the following:

Arrow rotator tokens will have different effects in a reflected room.

Roach queens will spawn roaches with different movement orders (or really the same, but different relevant to the orientation of the room).

Brained pathmaps will be different.

These are just a few ways in which reflection matters.

The question is, how can you use such differences to force substantially different solutions? The more different your solution, the better.

Josh



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04-02-2010 at 02:50 PM
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Neather2
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The examples you used aren't really helpful. The Reflected rooms in "Reflections" have also many differences in the elements used. However, Thanks.

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04-02-2010 at 03:01 PM
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Jacob
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quote:
Neather2 wrote:
The examples you used aren't really helpful.


Huh? Why not? My planned entry uses two of those for starters.
And the rooms in Reflections use differences in brained movement.

Also, thanks for your answers jbluestein. I had missed the point about the puzzle section only being rotated.

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[Last edited by Jacob at 04-02-2010 06:54 PM]
04-02-2010 at 06:52 PM
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