Pinnacle
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1135
Registered: 06-10-2004
IP: Logged

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Once (adv.): Enough.
Twice (adv.): Once too often.
~Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary

Zmann
Level: Master Delver

Rank Points: 241
Registered: 04-21-2003
IP: Logged

I don't think they're very cheap from a playing stand point. They simply blend in with the light blue tiles, and if you wait long enough you can see exactly where they are when they blink. I just think they're not very useful for puzzles at all. They're just roachs that are a different color, and the only thing they test is patience.

ErikH2000
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2794
Registered: 02-04-2003
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Spiders are most definitely cheap, by two separate definitions:

Cheap Adjective
1. Gained with little effort.
2. Contemptible because of lack of any fine, lofty, or redeeming qualities.

(Excerpted from Merriam-Webster dictionary)

They are cheap by definition 1, because I was in an all-fracking hurry to add monsters to Webfoot DROD when I came up with them, and just changed the tiles for tar babies in one graphical style to be spiders. No extra programming involved. Now that was CHEAP!

They are cheap by definition 2, because they go against the fine and lofty Principle of Predictabilty that I mostly followed in the design of DROD. You should be able to tell with a minimum of effort what any game element will do in response to your next move. In the end DROD included exceptions to this principle, and I regret almost all of them.

So spiders are the cheapest of the cheap. Cheaper than Jack Benny. Cheaper than Pabst Blue Ribbon. Cheaper than 3-squares-per-flush toilet paper rations.

-Erik

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The Godkiller - Chapter 1 available now on Steam. It's a DROD-like puzzle adventure game.
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Phweengee
Level: Delver
Rank Points: 66
Registered: 03-02-2004
IP: Logged

My question for you all is, do you consider me cheap for altering the spider tiles on the bitmap to make them visible?

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-Phweengee

gamer_extreme_101
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1939
Registered: 03-07-2004
IP: Logged

No offense, but that's taking away the purpose of the spiders. If you want something visible, use roaches or tar babies.

Think about it - each enemy has its own unique purpose. All you are doing is making another roach.




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--That guy with a million different aliases since he doesn't like this name anymore.

Zmann
Level: Master Delver

Rank Points: 241
Registered: 04-21-2003
IP: Logged

He's not cheating. All he's doing is saving time. Not game turns even. He's saving real time, which he has a right to. Eventually, since all the spiders blink, you could find out where every single one of them are. He's just figuring out where they are in less time. Its perfectly fair.

Spiders may have a specific purpose, but its purpose only wastes time for people.

[Edited by Zmann on 06-22-2004 at 03:18 AM GMT]

Phweengee
Level: Delver
Rank Points: 66
Registered: 03-02-2004
IP: Logged

That was my rationalization too
I figured, I'm in this for the puzzles, not to squint at the screen.
But I'm not here to be too defensive. I was curious what you guys would think, and if you disagree with me that's all fine

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-Phweengee

Revoklaw
Level: Roachling
Rank Points: 13
Registered: 05-30-2004
IP: Logged

My opinion on the questions - spiders are not cheap, and altering the spider tiles to make them more visible is.

Spiders add a challenge of having to predict where the monsters in the room are going to be, where they're likely to be stuck, without being able to actually see them. I always plow through spider rooms at the same speed I'd do normal roaches, and I find that trying to keep in mind the potential stuck-spots of the spiders and when my movement would unstuck them makes for a nice puzzle. Whenever I get eaten by an invisible spider, there's almost definitely a forehead-slap in the very near future - I should have seen that spider coming.

That said - sure, you could also squint at the screen for fifteen minutes until you know where all the spiders are. But what fun is that? I'd call that the brute-force alternative to the more elegant hyperopia-friendly option of just trying to keep straight where the spiders might be.

Drizzo
Level: Master Delver

Rank Points: 179
Registered: 03-03-2004
IP: Logged

Revoklaw wrote:
My opinion on the questions - spiders are not cheap, and altering the spider tiles to make them more visible is.

Spiders add a challenge of having to predict where the monsters in the room are going to be, where they're likely to be stuck, without being able to actually see them. I always plow through spider rooms at the same speed I'd do normal roaches, and I find that trying to keep in mind the potential stuck-spots of the spiders and when my movement would unstuck them makes for a nice puzzle. Whenever I get eaten by an invisible spider, there's almost definitely a forehead-slap in the very near future - I should have seen that spider coming.

That said - sure, you could also squint at the screen for fifteen minutes until you know where all the spiders are. But what fun is that? I'd call that the brute-force alternative to the more elegant hyperopia-friendly option of just trying to keep straight where the spiders might be.

Much agreed to that strategy, I don't tend to look for the blinks so much as remember where they should be and lure them across the white squares in order to find them. Perhaps not the grandest of creatures, but it adds enough to my game for me to enjoy their presence.

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and business." - Tom Robbins

RubellaGolda
Level: Delver

Rank Points: 52
Registered: 11-20-2003
IP: Logged

For making puzzles, spiders do not contribute much. However, they do contribute to the arsenal of objects that a hold author has for telling a story; and story-telling is imho a large factor in the attractiveness of playing DROD.
But in no way should the puzzliness of the game be sacrificed to atmosphere (i think), and spiders are in that sense quite useful because they don't change mechanics of the game/puzzle.

DiMono
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1181
Registered: 09-13-2003
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One use of spiders is to replace roaches, when they've gotten really redundant redundant. You can only slaughter roaches for so long, so sometimes you just gotta use tar babies or spiders instead, for the visual change-up.

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b0rsuk
Level: Smiter

Rank Points: 489
Registered: 11-23-2003
IP: Logged

Sure spiders are cheap, but they would be better if they didn't blink.
There is something challanging about predicting movement of invisible monster.
Still, I think there could be more interesting creature instead.

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