joker5
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 607
Registered: 11-25-2003
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I've been feeling sad lately, and I've been writing and reading way too much. I sat down and just wrote a monalogue, with a strange conclusion that I drew based on the fact that we're getting less and less brilliantly-creative holds, and the real lack of inspiration that I've been feeling lately. I really gotta get some antidepressants, or at least some coffee. I'm probably wrong, and gunna get flamed, but to quote the canonical list of last words: "I drink the bottle marked 'POISON' on the off-chance that it's an extra-healing potion."


It seems like DROD is kinda in a rut. The Dev team is industriously working behind the scenes and not saying squat to keep from dashing our hopes. This has created an "underground" tense culture, and rampant speculation. Meanwhile, most ideas and nifty tricks in DROD have been explored, and just about all the potential puzzle ideas mined and then mined again, producing many many holds, most of them in progress.

To be quite frank, the quality of holds being outputted is really going down. That's the first thing I've noticed. I mean, we're changing. Dugan's in't a warmup on the basis that there are too many rooms, and unless we get another "Fool's Errand" or something, I'm afraid the standards will slip until we're all producing holds to the tune of...

"The Monster's Cave".

No offense, sims. Many puzzles these days have an unfinished, bloated feel. Most puzzles these days could be done in about half the space it takes them, and the rest of the rooms could easily be filled with stuff that gives you a feeling of "Wow, this stuff is really polished, like another Dugan's."

That'd be heavan: Dugan's Dungeon 2, or at least 1.5. At least 15 more levels of brilliant, stumping, diabolically clever puzzles to play, and maybe, just maybe, if we're really good, 2 new dungeon elements. I swear if I could program worth ****, I'd download the windows source and hack it up to add 2 more elements from the suggestion board. I can see how to do them; I just don't have the know-how or the time. The number of puzzles rises exponentially with each new element, you know... Just a single new monster would brighten an entire month for me, and probably more for actually skilled architects like RedHawk, and Robobob, and Dimono, and Eytanz, and Agaricus.

Back in the days of 1.5, we were all busy with Dugan's, but then we got finished. Along came 1.6, and there was much rejoicing. We love its power, its simplicity, and its results. But now we're on the endgame of our battle with getting all the joy out of 1.6, and JtRH is FAR FAR FAR on the horizon. A few months could mean ANYTHING.

Meanwhile, the new things are features like a "holds" menu for the site. While it's nifty that you can download many holds from one screen, and it is a necessary feature for the community to really feel polished, it's not what we really NEED. What we REALLY need is a new direction to pioneer. We've already mined our territory out. We need new lands to conquer, new things to encounter, new challenges to overcome. Without those, we don't move in any particular direction but down.

I guess what I'm saying is, DROD is starting to fade. It's not noticable if you're not looking for it, but we've got to stop the staleness before it spreads. What we need is something new....

~joker5

____________________________
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"Two words: Beam Waffle!" -me

eytanz
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2708
Registered: 02-05-2003
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I sympathize with you, I really do - and I agree on some of what you're saying. It is far harder to come up with new design ideas than it was six months ago, that's for sure, because many things have already been done. But it's far from true that there are none left - I have several rooms built that use ideas that haven't been in any hold, and that's not because I'm especially creative; there are still hundreds of such ideas - they just require a bit more effort now. Personally, there are two reasons why I'm not releasing a hold anytime soon - one is that I have far less time than I did several months back; this will change soon. The other you'll see when the hold I'm working on now will come out.

As for why other people aren't working on new holds, and why the holds that are coming out seem shoddier than others, well, I think to a large extent the focus on new features and 1.7 is to blame. People seem to be waiting for new stuff to come out - many people have convinced themselves, as you did, that DROD without new stuff is not worth it, that they need new stuff to be creative. That's bull. There's plenty that can be done with current DROD, and if people think less of what they don't have and more of what they do, then you'll be seeing it.

There are also other reasons - when DROD AE was under development, DROD wasn't really advertised anywhere. The people who hung around the board at the time where basically people who were DROD fans for years. When the editor came out, we felt the need to excel and outdo each other. But now, that DROD is growing in exposure, new people are coming in, that see the positive attention that people who design holds get but don't want to put in the effort, so they make unpolished holds, and don't playtest them properly. This is the way these things go.

---

But, all that said, there's a totally different side to this. And this side is - who exactly do you expect to release the new material? Coding a new feature takes time. Building more levels takes time. Now, the dev team, as you mentioned, is busy. They could, of course, stop working on what they are doing now and release a version with just one additional feature, and add some levels featuring it. But that would just mean that 1.7 will be even furher away - and remember, at the moment Caravel is making no money whatsoever from DROD. The dev team are all volunteers. If DROD is to survive, then it needs to be able to be worth the time spent in development, which is why 1.7 will be (partially) shareware. If they release mid-versions, they're just delaying the day that DROD can be self-sufficient.

Not to mention - DROD is free. And I'm betting that you already got more value from it than most pay games. No-one ever promised you that DROD is going to satisfy your ever need, or entertain you continuously. Do you feel that DROD has little to offer for you at the moment? Move on. Find something else to play; come back when the new content is relased. That's a perfectly reasonable choice. Remember that DROD has been out for years - for most of its existance, it had 0 new features, people played it, and went to play something else. You're better off because you know that, within a reasonable amount of time, new features will appear, and new holds to contain them.

But in the meanwhile, it's really not DROD's job to keep us all entertained.

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I got my avatar back! Yay!

The_Red_Hawk
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 783
Registered: 09-02-2003
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Wow...this makes me really want to get back into Deep Hold. After a break of several months, I'll get back to is when I'm not so tired (tomorrow morning).

I agree completely with what you're saying. More inspiration, please, people!

____________________________
Slashing, whirling, diving, twirling,
Snapping, turning, rising, swirling,
Screeching, flipping, gliding, sliding,
The red hawk's dance of death.

.....the king of the skies.....

DiMono
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1181
Registered: 09-13-2003
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A pox on joker and eytanz for making me think at 12:30 in the morning, when I should be long since sleeping. As I'm sure is expected, I agree with parts of both your arguments.

I think there's a much simpler explanation for the lack of truly creative holds recently; there are a lot of holds available for playing and/or testing right now. There are four pages on the holds download section, and at least twenty of those holds are really quite good. Please remember that three of the most recent holds uploaded there were Fool's Errand, which is pretty short and very clever, and introduced a truly original concept, Loony Labyrinth, which is quite large and has a unique design, and King Reubus' Palace, which is currently the largest user-made hold available.

The main consequence of having so many good holds already up for downloading is that a bunch of the skilled architects are playing those holds instead of designing their own. Just as every good author is an avid reader, most of the good architects also play many other holds.

Now, I'm not saying this is a bad thing, by any stretch of the imagination. Architects playing holds will see an idea and think to themselves "wait a second, if I take the idea from this room and put it next to this dungeon element here, I can have something neat," and lo a new dungeon idea is born. A little bit of a slow down now will pay off in the near future, when the skilled architects finish their next projects.

In the meantime, some of the more fresh architects are cutting their teeth. They're giving it a good try, and while the results may not be quite as good as we'd like them to be, their next effort will be better, and the one after that will be even better. After all, remember who made the Ketchup and Puppies hold.

The largest factor in hold creation is the time involved in doing it well. Hawk's been working on Deep Hold for at least three months, Reubus took me a month and a half, and only eytanz knows how long he's been working on his hold. I think that right now it feels like there's more of a slow-down in high quality hold creation than there actually is; the hold are being created as we speak, they're just not ready for public consumption yet.

As for 1.7, I think everyone just sort of accepts that it's at least six months away. Yes, there will be new features, and yes, entirely new concepts will be open to us, but there's no point in waiting at the door for the mailman. Right now I'm working on a hold that I was originally intending to start after 1.7 was released, but I was struck by inspiration for a few level concepts. Every once in a while, ideas just spring out of nowhere, and DROD hold creation is no different. Like eytanz's hold, there are some concepts in my current project that haven't been used yet, and I'm sure I'll think of more before setting it free.

If you feel that DROD is stagnant at the moment, there's nobody holding a whip over you forcing you to play it. Nobody will be offended if you take a break and come back to it later. You might even discover a social life Just don't be afraid to check back in once in a while to see what's been thought of next, we might surprise you.

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RoboBob3000
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1978
Registered: 10-23-2003
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joker5 wrote:

...and probably more for actually skilled architects like RedHawk, and Robobob, and Dimono, and Eytanz, and Agaricus.

Me? On a list? I'm quite flattered, although I'm sure there are many names that could be listed before mine, like Onieromancer, Urban, Bibelot, and Clayton, to name a few. All I've ever done is my Speaking Grounds hold, a short six-room level, and a room or two for the longest room contest.

But anyhow, I find myself drodding less lately as well, although I know that given enough time, I'll eventually sit back down and play it for a spell. I'm just still surfing the board cause I really like this community!

____________________________
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agaricus5
Level: Smitemaster
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Registered: 02-04-2003
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DiMono wrote:
The largest factor in hold creation is the time involved in doing it well. Hawk's been working on Deep Hold for at least three months, Reubus took me a month and a half, and only eytanz knows how long he's been working on his hold. I think that right now it feels like there's more of a slow-down in high quality hold creation than there actually is; the hold are being created as we speak, they're just not ready for public consumption yet.

I totally agree.

I've got rooms lying around that I would like to use in my hold, but I can't find a suitable theme for them or place to put them, and rooms that I want to make are either too easy or not fun to play (L9 2N is, however an exception).

Plus, if you take my hold as an example, if you look at the thread, there hasn't been muck feedback on it recently. In fact, only 5 downloads of it's latest version have been recorded. Part of the problem is that lack of feedback can also help stagnation - by not giving it, it can be discouraging to the architect to make more levels.

____________________________
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joker5
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 607
Registered: 11-25-2003
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Well whadda ya know, it was an extra-healing potion

So we're trapped in a cycle... Many of the most obvious ideas have been tapped out, and we need more and more effort to get good holds. Almost all new ground has been broken, and no one is commenting anymore on holds, so architects build less, so they get less feedback, etc. Meanwhile, new architects are entering the flock, and are being newbies/lazy, and the result is a horde of unpolished holds.

eytanz? I agree with your argument that it's possible to get more ideas and rooms; in fact, there are still MANY more rooms. The problem is twofold.

First, as agaricus pointed out, low feedback, which results in low inspiration.

Second, to use your own argument against you, DROD is freeware. This means that the Dev team is working entirely on volunteer time, but more importantly that we didn't give anything up for DROD besides a few hours of our lives. We feel less bonding to DROD if we don't pay anything. DROD seems transient without a price-tag. I'm not saying it needs a price tag, but the most a person can be expected to do is make 2 decent holds and then retire to the boards to ride the fame his holds brought him. Or he could never take the architectural path, and just critique and post random suggestions and angsty essays <.< >.>.

In short, people are, since DROD is freeware and people are people, less inclined to work harder on DROD for holds. There are two solutions: 1. Release something that makes it easier to make creative and fun-to-play holds (a new monster or element that they've already programmed, for starters. I know they've made bombs already and they even sorted out the fuse bug). 2. Staple all the good architects to their computers, bring them all into one room, and have some lazy guard whip them occasionally to get them to make high-quality holds. As much fun as #2 would be(mostly because I'm not a good architect), it would only be a matter of time before the neighbors send police to investigate the noise and the whole operation would be broken up.

DiMono? I use my infernal luck as an argument against you. Whenever I leave something good, something happens and I'm not back until the waves have subsided, if at all. If I leave a tracker, such as subscribing to news, the tracker fails or nothing happens. If I take my luck into account it goes away.

Seriously, though, DROD is a major part of my life. Not as much as it is of the DEV teams but a damn large part nevertheless. I play most new holds, I use my break to sit on the forum, and I even try to organise DRODCon, which I have abandoned in favor of simpler things, like building a perpetual-motion-cat-herding-anti-gravity device that is smarter than me. Leaving it would make me restructure my life.

And I'm saving up my lunch money as a "DROD relief fund". I'm going to go convince my parents to sponser the DROD team. If that doesn't work, I'll panhandle for change.

~joker5

____________________________
Criminals, like other people, dislike being shot. ~FBI study on guns

www.badgerbadgerbadger.com

"Two words: Beam Waffle!" -me

agaricus5
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1838
Registered: 02-04-2003
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joker5 wrote:
So we're trapped in a cycle... Many of the most obvious ideas have been tapped out, and we need more and more effort to get good holds. Almost all new ground has been broken, and no one is commenting anymore on holds, so architects build less, so they get less feedback, etc.

I think this is not true. At least for my hold and Red_Hawk's one, there has been little feedback for either because it's too large/daunting a task to playtest them, not just because the good ideas have been tapped out. For example. Go and look at L6 and L8 of Bavato's Dungeon. I am of the opinion that hardly any on the rooms in here have been looked at, and even fewer have been solved by anyone, probably because they are too hard for people to do in one sitting, and therefore people do not do them because they have no patience.

Meanwhile, new architects are entering the flock, and are being newbies/lazy, and the result is a horde of unpolished holds.

However, I do agree. It is, however, nice to see that so many are having a good go at it.

eytanz? I agree with your argument that it's possible to get more ideas and rooms; in fact, there are still MANY more rooms. The problem is twofold.

First, as agaricus pointed out, low feedback, which results in low inspiration.

So what are you waiting for?

Go and playtest the holds you think are promising and still in progress and give some feedback!

Second, to use your own argument against you, DROD is freeware. This means that the Dev team is working entirely on volunteer time, but more importantly that we didn't give anything up for DROD besides a few hours of our lives. We feel less bonding to DROD if we don't pay anything. DROD seems transient without a price-tag. I'm not saying it needs a price tag, but the most a person can be expected to do is make 2 decent holds and then retire to the boards to ride the fame his holds brought him. Or he could never take the architectural path, and just critique and post random suggestions and angsty essays <.< >.>.

You may have only given up a few hours of your life to DROD, but with certainty, I can say that there are many more of us who have been here much longer than you and have contributed more than you may think. For me at least, I have been associated with this project for a long time and have seen DROD develop from abandonware to a working, fully functional game with a level editor and a whole DROD community to go with it, and I feel very attached to it. Perhaps what you say may hold true to newer people who have not been DRODing as long, but I think you are heavily underestimating the loyalty of people who have been here for a long time, back, even to the start of the forum and the release of DROD 1.6.

I think you are being a little impatient. If you wish for new high quality holds or more levels on existing ones, then why not ask? I'm sure any architect you ask will be thrilled to have someone compliment their work so highly.

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jdyer
Level: Smiter
Rank Points: 330
Registered: 03-19-2003
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I've been busy working on a fairly substantial hold that is still in beta-test. I can't vouch for the quality, but I did have one beta tester say he liked it better than Dugan's.

I have been quite pleased so far with how private beta-testing has gone. The comments are more detailed than typical forum posts, and I feel less guilty about making extensive changes due to comments (nearly every room has undergone tweaks).

Have faith. New holds will come.

The_Red_Hawk
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DiMono wrote:
Hawk's been working on Deep Hold for at least three months

Actually, since September,

agaricus5 wrote:You may have only given up a few hours of your life to DROD, but with certainty, I can say that there are many more of us who have been here much longer than you...

Who here knows approximately how much time they've logged DRODing? It took me thirty-six hours of straight playing to beat the first five levels of Dugan's.


But I'd like to say that I think that the JtRH beta couldn't come at a better time. Pretty soon, we'll have floods of bug reports coming in (probably) and people who didn't get it can still be amazed and extrapolate from what's being said.

____________________________
Slashing, whirling, diving, twirling,
Snapping, turning, rising, swirling,
Screeching, flipping, gliding, sliding,
The red hawk's dance of death.

.....the king of the skies.....

Mattcrampy
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2388
Registered: 05-29-2003
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What neat timing.

For posterity, Red Hawk was an April Fool, and thought that the 1.7 beta had been released. It hadn't.

In any case, my opinion is as stated: you're going to be far more unhappy if you wait for 1.7 than if you just go with the flow. We'll give you plenty of time to get excited about what's in store, but as we stand we've got more here than we ever have.

What are we going to do after 1.7 is released? Stand around and say how great it'll be when 1.8 comes out? Even if it doesn't?

Erik did see this coming, and just now I understand what he was trying to tell the rest of the team - I put it down to experience. You'll kill the game if you keep hyping it up in your own mind, you know that, don't you? There are people already planning rooms based around 'features' NOT in the next version, and just imagine how annoyed they will be when they find out. They won't even notice all the other stuff, because we 'broke' their room. Better to not mislead people now than have them angry at us later.

Matt

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The_Red_Hawk
Level: Smitemaster
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I certainly don't plan for new features. I only imagine what the new monsters might be like.

____________________________
Slashing, whirling, diving, twirling,
Snapping, turning, rising, swirling,
Screeching, flipping, gliding, sliding,
The red hawk's dance of death.

.....the king of the skies.....

masonjason
Level: Smiter

Rank Points: 349
Registered: 12-29-2003
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Like everyone else, I'm looking forward to 1.7, but I'm not standing around holding my breath. I've got plenty of stuff to do both inside and outside the world of DROD. And I think there are still new things that can be done with the current set of components. In fact, I may even make another full hold before the release of 1.7.

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