Announcement: Be excellent to each other.


Caravel Forum : DROD RPG Boards : RPG Feature Requests : Expandable tree view for saves
New Topic New Poll Post Reply
Poster Message
RoboBob3000
Level: Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 1912
Registered: 10-23-2003
IP: Logged
icon Expandable tree view for saves (+1)  
It looks like everybody's got an idea regarding how to best manage saves in DROD RPG. We can go ahead and throw mine on the pile too.

Succeeding at this game requires analyzing branching decision paths. That suggests to me that an expandable/collapsable branching tree view of saves would be the most useful for players.

The gist: The root save of the tree is the beginning of the quest. At the start of the game, the root save is the current node. When a new save is made (including autosaves), the new save is marked as a child of the current node, and then the new save becomes the current node. Any time you load a save, the save you load becomes the current node. Ta-da! Tree structure!

The ability to display saves as an expandable list would make it much easier to identify major decisions that the player made along their current branch (provided that they named them well). The depth of the tree is directly related to progress along a certain branch - a player can confidently return to an old save earlier in their branch and know that they didn't return to a similar point along a completely different branch.

Obviously, this wouldn't be compatable with existing save files. Perhaps a patch that implements this could just mark all previously existing saves as children of the root.

And then there's the issue of quicksaves - I don't think they necessarily need to change with this system. They could remain as disposable saves, but the previous "real" save would retain the current node attribute.

Edit: I should note that the implication here is that each save would potentially have several first-generation children.

____________________________
http://beepsandbloops.wordpress.com/

[Last edited by RoboBob3000 at 09-17-2008 11:48 PM]
09-17-2008 at 11:45 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts This architect's holds Quote Reply
Fafnir
Level: Smiter
Avatar
Rank Points: 314
Registered: 11-05-2004
IP: Logged
icon Re: Expandable tree view for saves (0)  
Hmm... On the one hand, it sounds like a pretty good model, it works with my play style, and it's the best idea I've heard so far. You could actually give separate playthroughs of a given hold separate trees - a forest rather than one big tree - which would be a godsend for organisational purposes.

On the other hand, any given playthrough is going to be a very deep, very unbalanced tree - people don't generally explore the consequences of a decision very far, so at any given node (at least near the root) one child will be far larger than the others. That makes it tricky to represent efficiently coding-wise, and even trickier to represent visually on the restore screen. The expanding-collapsing view doesn't work when you have to go through twenty expansions to get to your last save. Thoughts?

____________________________
Stupidity kills.
Absolute stupidity
Kills absolutely.
09-18-2008 at 02:41 AM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Show all user's posts Quote Reply
Monkey
Level: Master Delver
Avatar
Rank Points: 186
Registered: 03-21-2006
IP: Logged
icon Re: Expandable tree view for saves (0)  
Meh, I'd use a folder system instead of a branching system. But the principle is pretty much the same.

____________________________
lurking
09-18-2008 at 02:49 AM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts This architect's holds Quote Reply
Sillyman
Level: Smiter
Avatar
Rank Points: 337
Registered: 09-08-2006
IP: Logged
icon Re: Expandable tree view for saves (0)  
quote:
Fafnir wrote:
The expanding-collapsing view doesn't work when you have to go through twenty expansions to get to your last save. Thoughts?

Yeah, maybe the designers could do something that's never been thought of before, especially not in default operating system dialog boxes like [gasp, shock] making the current node automatically expanded. Naaaah, that'll never work.

____________________________
Who, me?
FNORD

[Last edited by Sillyman at 09-18-2008 07:46 AM]
09-18-2008 at 07:45 AM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts Quote Reply
Briareos
Level: Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 3515
Registered: 08-07-2005
IP: Logged
icon Re: Expandable tree view for saves (0)  
quote:
Monkey wrote:
Meh, I'd use a folder system instead of a branching system. But the principle is pretty much the same.

So exactly how does a tree of folders differ from a tree of nodes? :|

____________________________
"I'm not anti-anything, I'm anti-everything, it fits better." - Sole
R.I.P. Robert Feldhoff (1962-2009) :(
09-18-2008 at 08:57 AM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Visit Homepage Show all user's posts Quote Reply
silver
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 913
Registered: 01-18-2005
IP: Logged
icon Re: Expandable tree view for saves (0)  
quote:
Briareos wrote:
So exactly how does a tree of folders differ from a tree of nodes? :|


folders either implies an actual file-system organization (which would be off in this case because all the saves are actually dumped into a database) or (more likely because of the parenthetical just listed) implies that nodes can be typed as containers or data, but not both. whereas in a node system, you kinda of expect that all nodes are data, and some are also containers.

however, from a UI perspective, he probably means "and then the user can choose which (arbitrary) node to stash the save into, rather than being forced to 'hang' it off of an antecedent save," thus allowing the user to organize differently from "saves starting from New Game X" to, well, whatever the user wants. this is, of course, possible in a system where all saves are implicitly also folders, but probably confusing unless you allow the creation of non-data containers with arbitrary names (i.e. folders).



____________________________
:yinyang

[Last edited by silver at 09-18-2008 03:20 PM]
09-18-2008 at 03:14 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts This architect's holds Quote Reply
Fafnir
Level: Smiter
Avatar
Rank Points: 314
Registered: 11-05-2004
IP: Logged
icon Re: Expandable tree view for saves (0)  
quote:
Sillyman wrote:
quote:
Fafnir wrote:
The expanding-collapsing view doesn't work when you have to go through twenty expansions to get to your last save. Thoughts?

Yeah, maybe the designers could do something that's never been thought of before, especially not in default operating system dialog boxes like [gasp, shock] making the current node automatically expanded. Naaaah, that'll never work.

Look. Assume each level of folders is 1cm of indentation. At the end of a hold, it's not unreasonable (using the branching model that Robobob is advocating) to have amassed 50 levels of saves. (I would easily have had this many on my first playthrough.) Considering that the save selection dialog is about 10cm across on my (quite wide) monitor, that's a lot of horizontal scrolling needed to browse saves. Do you see my point now?

____________________________
Stupidity kills.
Absolute stupidity
Kills absolutely.
09-18-2008 at 03:21 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Show all user's posts Quote Reply
Sillyman
Level: Smiter
Avatar
Rank Points: 337
Registered: 09-08-2006
IP: Logged
icon Re: Expandable tree view for saves (0)  
Aaah. Yes, yes I do.

____________________________
Who, me?
FNORD
09-19-2008 at 03:22 AM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts Quote Reply
RoboBob3000
Level: Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 1912
Registered: 10-23-2003
IP: Logged
icon Re: Expandable tree view for saves (0)  
You're absolutely right about the display - it would get unwieldy and difficult to navigate fast. Regardless of how you would display it, I still feel that this underlying structure would be extremely useful to have in place.

Try this on for size: All saves will still be listed in chronological order. However, we add an additional "info" button somewhere (I don't have the UI available right now, so I don't know where it would fit). If you click on any save and then click on the "info" button, you are presented with a tabbed view. First tab features a scrolling list of all ancestors of the selected save. Second tab features a scrolling list of all first-generation descendants of the selected save.

Navigating down the tree will still be time consuming, but navigating back up the tree (which is a much more likely restore scenario, IMO) will be a breeze.

____________________________
http://beepsandbloops.wordpress.com/
09-23-2008 at 12:41 AM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts This architect's holds Quote Reply
Sillyman
Level: Smiter
Avatar
Rank Points: 337
Registered: 09-08-2006
IP: Logged
icon Re: Expandable tree view for saves (+1)  
Hang on... let's take that folder idea and twist it a bit (or not at all, depending on the original intent):

It's a tree of nodes that operate UI-wise like folders, except in a list (possibly also allowing actual folders). It starts showing top-level saves, along with how many saves they contain:

(42)Level 2: Entrance (autosave)
(55)Level 1: Once North
(10)Example Folder (folder)

Then, when you select one, it opens and the other ones disappear. (Plus, restore is enabled) However, it remains (along with, of course, the root directory) to allow going back easier, potentially with an indicator like (^), (^2), (^3), etc., and its contents are displayed beneath it.

This repeats until you reach an empty save or newly created manual folder, which leaves the other branches displayed, because there's no reason not to.

____________________________
Who, me?
FNORD
09-24-2008 at 05:35 AM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts Quote Reply
Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 3202
Registered: 02-20-2007
IP: Logged
icon Re: Expandable tree view for saves (0)  
It's come up in chat quite a bit recently that save management could do with an overhaul, and I knew there was an old topic for it, so I dug this up.

Browsing the topic, I see that others have proposed a tree structure for trying out various possibilities within one attempt at a hold, so that you can easily see which saves are "ancestors" of a particular save when you get stuck and want to go back. That's certainly worth supporting. However, my motivation for wanting a folder structure is different: I want to be able to keep saves towards an attempt at "ATK route, no shield" separate from saves towards an attempt at "DEF route, no altars" separate from... you get the idea.

Relatedly, I want to be able to turn off autosaves. I know they are very useful for first attempts at a hold, but for challenges they are worse than useless. You have to make manual saves anyway, because the autosave will be overridden as soon as you attempt a different challenge, so they just end up as extra clutter making it even harder to navigate your single folder.

As for how to implement a folder structure, Sillyman's idea is the best, but there is the question of what "top-level saves" means. The first save in a particular attempt? No use for TT, where nearly all challenges handle the first level the same (since you shouldn't use the first altar) so we'd still have everything piled into the same folder. No, the only way to make this workable is for the user to be able to designate a save as "top-level", which automatically means that any further saves starting from that one are saved into its folder. This would also apply to autosaves (if turned on), and if a particular folder is "active", an autosave would override previous instances of the same autosave in that folder, but not in other folders.

____________________________
50th Skywatcher
10-29-2016 at 05:32 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts High Scores This architect's holds Quote Reply
bbb
Level: Goblin
Rank Points: 17
Registered: 10-07-2013
IP: Logged
icon Re: Expandable tree view for saves (0)  
It sounds like the model you are looking for is version control.
03-14-2017 at 06:52 AM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts Quote Reply
New Topic New Poll Post Reply
Caravel Forum : DROD RPG Boards : RPG Feature Requests : Expandable tree view for saves
Surf To:


Forum Rules:
Can I post a new topic? No
Can I reply? No
Can I read? Yes
HTML Enabled? No
UBBC Enabled? Yes
Words Filter Enable? No

Contact Us | CaravelGames.com

Powered by: tForum tForumHacks Edition b0.98.8
Originally created by Toan Huynh (Copyright © 2000)
Enhanced by the tForumHacks team and the Caravel team.