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Kwerulous
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icon 12th Stalwart Escapes (0)  
I say "Sort of", because this was originally an entry for a contest. But because I was quite proud of it I decided to add a couple of rooms, replace a room with an idea I suddenly had and promote it. I also wanted a bit of experience and to learn what NOT to do with architecture before going onto my bigger project.

mxvladi, samuel and a couple of other people have already seen some of this (in the contest), just to let you know.

I was just going to submit this straight to the HAs, but I didn't because (a) I have no idea how, (b) because I didn't know if I was allowed to just do that and (c) I thought best to let some other people test it first, even though I've tested it five times. I just know there'll be a spelling mistake somewhere...

About the Hold:
> It is fairly easy. If you're looking for a nice non-torturous hold then this is what you want.
> There are only 16 rooms so it's only a quick hold
> There's also a mini story - none of which is intended to be true to the official story.

EDIT - file removed. See attachments lower down the page(s) for latest versions.

[Last edited by Kwerulous at 08-28-2008 07:19 PM]
08-27-2008 at 05:57 PM
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rman
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The whole hold: It's good to make holds on Architechture board Anyone Edit.

The Escape:

The Entrance: It's very easy to get stuck if you exit your chamber in a not right position. You better remove that trick or make a scroll or a speech warning about it.

2E: A real monster can't become a scripted NPC, and a script that makes a guard movement is hard to make, so it's kinda... strange that guard can help after being a real monster. Also it's kinda strange that guard can't figure out how to get out. You could replace the gourd with a roach stepping on pressure plates and finally releasing a guard then dying on a hot tile.

1N2E: In such an easy hold it's surprising to meet... goblin manipulations! They are hard for me. Maybe it's only me, but anyway.

2N2E: It's... kinda... not-so-easy room. It's not too hard room, but still harder than previous ones.

2N: Purpose of the power token = ? drop trapdoors. My bad. And how do you lure the bottom guards onto a bridge? If you have to do it... edit: because you don't have to!

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[Last edited by rman at 08-27-2008 07:54 PM]
08-27-2008 at 06:52 PM
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Kwerulous
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rman wrote:
The Entrance: It's very easy to get stuck if you exit your chamber in a not right position. You better remove that trick or make a scroll or a speech warning about it.
That was kind of the idea... but I do see what you mean, I might take that out.

2E: A real monster can't become a scripted NPC, and a script that makes a guard movement is hard to make, so it's kinda... strange that guard can help after being a real monster. Also it's kinda strange that guard can't figure out how to get out. You could replace the gourd with a roach stepping on pressure plates and finally releasing a guard then dying on a hot tile.
I'm not sure what you mean... you remember the rooms in TCB where you have to manipulate roaches out of a chamber with doors and plates? It's like that but you use the guard. This is only a simple room.
1N2E: In such an easy hold it's surprising to meet... goblin manipulations!
Are you saying the room is too hard for an easy hold or that this room makes the hold even more easy?

2N2E: I killed the golems, but it's still... kinda... not-so-easy room. It's not too hard room, but still harder than previous ones.
Meh... I'll leave it in.
3N1E: Did you steal the idea from TCB, The Uncturage, 4E? These rooms are too similar, you know.
I wouldn't use the term "Steal". Yes, the idea is the same, but the solution is different.

I would also point out that this hold was designed around the way it looks other than the difficulty in the contest, so don't expect drastically hard puzzles. Most of it is for story effect.
08-27-2008 at 07:12 PM
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Pinnacle
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12th Stalwart sounds like an Imperial name.
That is inconsistent with the canon, seeing as the Stalwart Army is a surface organization. To be consistant, use a Tuenan name.
I know it's not meant to be canonical, but still.

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08-27-2008 at 07:20 PM
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rman
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Kwerulous wrote:
2E: A real monster can't become a scripted NPC, and a script that makes a guard movement is hard to make, so it's kinda... strange that guard can help after being a real monster. Also it's kinda strange that guard can't figure out how to get out. You could replace the gourd with a roach stepping on pressure plates and finally releasing a guard then dying on a hot tile.
I'm not sure what you mean... you remember the rooms in TCB where you have to manipulate roaches out of a chamber with doors and plates? It's like that but you use the guard. This is only a simple room.

No, just strange that this guard is too stupid that he can't find the way out. And it's unbelievable that this guard (real guard) wants to help.

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08-27-2008 at 07:27 PM
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Kwerulous
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Pinnacle wrote:
12th Stalwart sounds like an Imperial name.
That is inconsistent with the canon, seeing as the Stalwart Army is a surface organization. To be consistant, use a Tuenan name.
I know it's not meant to be canonical, but still.
Yes, I did consider this, but I don't see it as much of a problem because the story is way off canon. Why would Beethro lead the Stalwart army? I'm just using the existing story characters and "re-shaping their roles", if you like.
rman wrote: No, just strange that this guard is too stupid that he can't find the way out.
That's actually a good point... I will fix that.
And it's unbelievable that this guard (real guard) wants to help
Once I've fixed the other point you made, then the guard will originally be trapped and needs help getting out. He's only saying that so the Stalwart will help him, then he will go back on his word (and kill him).

I will respond with all necessary changes once somebody has played the whole way through, to save people having to play over and over again.

[Last edited by Kwerulous at 08-27-2008 08:31 PM]
08-27-2008 at 08:29 PM
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Jacob
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I am up to 1N - which I'm not too enthused by (it's essentially just a timing puzzle, right?)

[Edit: I take this back now I've completed it. Not a bad room]

Otherwise, I am liking it so far and I don't think any of the rooms were particularly hard - but I am generally against entirely linear holds.


Will write some comments when I am done.

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[Last edited by Jacob at 08-28-2008 02:09 PM]
08-28-2008 at 01:34 PM
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Jacob
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Now done. 1S needs more than one checkpoint. After completing it Beethro can go north to Entrance and then re-enter 1S and again hear the same dialogue even though the room's complete.

I liked most of the rooms. 2N2E and 1N2E stand out as being less interesting - there's no trick, puzzle or gimmick. It's simply "go in and kill some golems/goblins", which is not very interesting or hard.
There isn't much of a puzzle in 3N1E. Most rooms could probably use more checkpoints.

All in all, quite a fun hold.

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[Last edited by Jacob at 08-28-2008 02:25 PM]
08-28-2008 at 02:21 PM
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Kwerulous
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Thanks for the feedback rman, Jacob and mxvladi; times like this I wish I had more modpoints...
mxvladi wrote: Etrance: I really, really don't like that left orb closes the doors while right toggles. So, if you're trying to escape through right part of the room, you have no way to escape. Please, mkae both orbs toggle the doors. Thanks
Yes, rman pointed this out. This will be changed.
1E: There's really no point of the door at 21,3-21,4. I liked the evil eye part of the room
I will remove the door below that, as I feel that is more unnecessary.
2E: A nice room. Also, since Kwerulous and rman were discussing about it, here're some things that they don't know:

Guard can't get out by himself because:

1. Doors are closed and it's not intended in guard AI to activate orbs;
2. Even if all doors would be opened initally the guard wouldn't find the way to player because guard(and brain) pathmaps count arrows as obstacles

Also, I don't think that guard helped the stalwart because he was so kind. He just wanted to get out and kill the stalwart.
rman is talking from the story point of view, so he is correct in what he says. This will be changed so it makes sense.
1N 2E: Well, that was quite nice room. Although 1-tile-wide passage was real help
Can you suggest something which would make it slightly harder? More plates or more monsters, perhaps?
2N 2E: You gave a lot of free space so it's easy to kill all golems and giants without getting yourself stuck. I like trick with golems which you must
Click here to view the secret text
Thanks - that was actually unintentional, but if it's a good part of the room...
3N 2E: Mmm, interesting. Though I quickly found the safe spot
I might do a different bomb/fuse puzzle as this rather a bit too easy.
3N 1E: In the contest thread I've told you that it's possible to solve the room activating only four of five tokens(SW left unactivated). It's still possible. You just need to hit other tokens a few times. I like the puzzle though.
It's easier and quicker to just use it, though. I'll leave it in.
3N: A little briar-riming room. You need to be quite fast to disable briar before it fully blocks the way to the next room(2N). After you've hit the orb, it's easy.
Actually, it blocks you from getting to the roach near the southern exit. Otherwise you could just leave the way you came in and it wouldn't matter. I might add something else to this room; it seems a bit too easy. Can you suggest anything?
2N: Aah! Nice room! Those guards were a headache... and a serpent, too. More checkpoints would be nice, though.
Thanks, will add more checkpoints.
2N 1E: Pretty "different beasts in cages" room. Serpent was the biggest problem, of course.
Thanks. Does this need more checkpoints?
1N 1E: A really difficult(compared to the rest of your hold rooms) one. Good puzzle idea. I had to try a lot of times before success.
Yep, better than the water-skipper room ;)
1N: A nice tarstuff-goes-boom puzzle. A good timing also.
Thank you!
1S: Aah, nice guard maneuver room! I found it a little trial-and-error, though.
Nah, I wouldn't call it trial-and-error. As long as you have knowledge of guard movement it's not that bad.

Thanks again for the comments.
Jacob wrote: Now done. 1S needs more than one checkpoint. After completing it Beethro can go north to Entrance and then re-enter 1S and again hear the same dialogue even though the room's complete.
Oh! Thanks, will fix that.

I liked most of the rooms. 2N2E and 1N2E stand out as being less interesting - there's no trick, puzzle or gimmick. It's simply "go in and kill some golems/goblins", which is not very interesting or hard.
I can add more puzzle to the goblin room, but I don't know about the rock golem room. I might need to change it all together.
There isn't much of a puzzle in 3N1E. Most rooms could probably use more checkpoints.
Thanks, will add more checkpoints.

And... don't you mean 3N2E?
All in all, quite a fun hold.
Thank you!

EDIT: I take it the final two rooms were OK? Inauro: The Entrance and the master-room?

[Last edited by Kwerulous at 08-29-2008 09:36 AM]
08-28-2008 at 02:52 PM
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larrymurk
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My only additional comment is

1N- I don't like having the tunnel in the southeast be right on the edge. Can't you move that area up one spot so the tunnel won't be on the edge?
08-28-2008 at 03:12 PM
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Kwerulous
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larrymurk wrote:
Can't you move that area up one spot so the tunnel won't be on the edge?
Yes, of course. I will now go and update the Hold with the changes suggested, and attach the new version when it's done, probably later on today.

[Last edited by Kwerulous at 08-28-2008 03:56 PM]
08-28-2008 at 03:29 PM
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Kwerulous
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OK, here's the next version. The following changes were made:

The Escape

The Entrance - Both orbs now toggle the doors. There's not much puzzle in this room, but it's only the intro room.

Once East - Removed an unnecessary door and added another checkpoint (it's under an evil eye).

Twice East - Fixed the slight confusion with the guard that rman mentioned. Player must step on a plate himself that was added before he can manipulate the guard, giving the effect that the guard was originally trapped.

Once North, Twice East - Jacob suggested that this room didn't have any puzzle and was slightly uninteresting. To make it slightly more difficult, a little bomb/mimic trap was set up to limit the player's sword orientation. It's still not that hard, but it's better, in my opinion.

Twice North, Twice East - Jacob also suggested the same for this room. I didn't know how to improve this without starting over again, so I just brightened it up a bit.

Thrice North, Twice East - This room didn't have much puzzle, and was a little too easy. I completely replaced it with a serpent/roach puzzle. It's about an average difficulty, I'd say.

Thrice North, Once East - This room wasn't changed; I didn't see any reason to change it.

Thrice North - This room wasn't changed either. I didn't see any reason to.

Secret Room - Nobody found this (as far as I can tell), but this was deleted. It wasn't very good or challenging and I didn't see the point of it being there.

Twice North - Added two more checkpoints.

Twice North, Once East - Added two more checkpoints, and added some lighting effects.

Once North, Once East - Nobody suggested a change, and I think it's OK.

Once North - I moved the tunnel at the south-east corner up a tile as larrymurk requested.

Once South - Added two more checkpoints as requested, and fixed the repeating speech bug that Jacob found.

Nobody suggested anything for the other level, so it was left as it was.

EDIT - removed file. See lower down the page for next version.

[Last edited by Kwerulous at 08-29-2008 12:53 PM]
08-28-2008 at 07:18 PM
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enzi666
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Once North, Twice East - Jacob suggested that this room didn't have any puzzle and was slightly uninteresting. To make it slightly more difficult, a little bomb/mimic trap was set up to limit the player's sword orientation. It's still not that hard, but it's better, in my opinion.

Is this room even possible? The bomb explosion doesn't get over the arrow.

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08-29-2008 at 01:30 AM
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Kwerulous
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mxvladi wrote:
OK, I've solved 1N 2E! I don't know which solution did you intend, but I just
Click here to view the secret text

It was awesome challenge! :thumbsup
No that's not the intended solution. I can't prove anything right now because I'm not on my DROD computer, but when I tested it the bombs did kill the goblins... and I know that did happen because I remember leaving the room. But I don't know how because you're right, the arrows should stop it.

The solution you found is definately NOT going to be only way to do it, that seems way too hard. But I haven't tried, it so...

EDIT - now that I think about, it doesn't sound that challenging, I might leave it in.

[Last edited by Kwerulous at 08-29-2008 09:22 AM]
08-29-2008 at 09:21 AM
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Kwerulous
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Here is the third version. I've tested it myself and everything seems to be in order now, but I bet I've missed something again.

The following changes were made:

The Escape

The Entrance - The prison cell you start off in is now covered with oremites, as I don't think the guards would let you keep you sword ;).

Twice East - Added another checkpoint.

Once North, Twice East - This is now possible. It works the same but there is a red door/trapdoor system to get the goblins you would put on the plates. I felt mxvladi's solution was excruciatingly difficult, as I couldn't even do it myself.

Once North, Once East - Added a scroll. This doesn't affect the rooms solution.

-----

Inauro - Secret Room - Corrected spelling/grammer errors.

[Last edited by Kwerulous at 08-29-2008 12:55 PM]
08-29-2008 at 12:52 PM
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Kwerulous
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mxvladi wrote:
Yeah, it's really difficult. Since you can't do it... demo.

(I love this difficult solution)

PLease tell me once you've imported it, I'll delete it then because it's quite spoilery.
The demo won't work because the room was updated. You might still be able to do it in the new room, though.

And... would you mind testing the whole hold for me one more time?

[Last edited by Kwerulous at 08-29-2008 01:09 PM]
08-29-2008 at 01:09 PM
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Kwerulous
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mxvladi wrote:
1N 2E: I can say that red door isn't required [...]
They are if you want to do it the easy/intended way. The only other way to kill the goblins on the plates (if the red doors weren't there) would be to use the guards; which, in my opinion, is too difficult, which is why I added the red doors/trapdoors.
08-29-2008 at 01:26 PM
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Kwerulous
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Just to note, two changes have been made since the latest version, but they are only speech edits and do not affect any gameplay. Therefore, it is unnecessary to post yet another version for testing.

Once mxvladi (or anyone else who is testing) has given the "thumbs up" I will submit this to the Hold Admins... yes?
08-29-2008 at 05:42 PM
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Kwerulous
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Note that you don't have to kill all the guards to leave the room. The objective is just to get you and the Stalwart out safely. Attactched is a demo to show you how to get past the guards, it doesn't kill them all. But, from where it ends, you can see it's easy if you *did* want to slaughter them all.

Oh, and the second level is only one room - a nice little final combat room :).

Let me know when you've finished with it.
08-29-2008 at 05:52 PM
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Kwerulous
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mxvladi wrote:
Now I would advice to wait for a couple of days(2 or 3 of 4 days) before submiting this - maybe somebody other will have something to say.
I know you are more experienced an architect than myself, but I think I might just submit it anyway. I've looked it over myself, there are no bugs. And if there are, I doubt they'll be major problems.

Plus I'm fairly proud of it, and I don't usually think much of my own work ;).

Plus you're the only person who has downloaded the latest version, so nobody else is likely to say anything...
08-29-2008 at 06:17 PM
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Kwerulous
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Question:

After pressing the "Submit" button, where do you attach the Hold? I don't see a link or anything and the version in this thread isn't the latest version. Should I just attach it here...?
08-29-2008 at 06:23 PM
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Kwerulous
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File: 12th Stalwart Escapes.hold (18.3 KB)
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icon Re: 12th Stalwart Escapes (0)  
This hold has been promoted - find it on the holds board here.

I deleted all attatched Holds in the thread, so the only one is this one. So it can be the only one the forum finds.

[Last edited by Kwerulous at 04-24-2014 09:46 AM]
08-29-2008 at 06:28 PM
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