hyperme
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There is a good posibility of this 'Second Sky'. The Eighth's physics are absurb. One end of it is a point, the other, a massive curve. It is posible to go from one to the other, but the process, or so I've heard, is very painful and quite fatel. Also the east and west are not joined, but you can walk froom one side to the other. This makes for a really weird effect near the point. This means there could be a 'Second Sky' as this world physics are really, realy absurb.

Another theroy is that there are other worlds like ours, who to them the stars in our sky are like our sun to them in their sky, meaning there would be a second sky, and many others, but that idea is madder than our world's physics, as the stars are close enough to fall, are they not?

nth Debater

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zex20913
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There is a second sky.

It is a well-known and documented fact that were we able to journey to (near) Northern Point, we would meet up with seven replicas of our own bodies, thus prohibiting us from actually reaching the true northernmost point.

Since it is agreed that there are replicas of our own bodies, which we see, and can actually touch, there must be seven replicas of our sky, which may seem to overlap, but simply meet fluidly. We may see one sky, but at Northern Point, there are a total of 8 skies. The second sky is a trivial case of this argument.

Of course, had the statement been "There is a second sky beneath the ground", my argument may have been totally different.

7th Debater.

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Chaco
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I agree that there are, in fact, eight versions of all unique locations, including eight versions of all entities (including you and I). However, we only live on one Eighth, not eight Eighths, and as such only a single sky corresponds to our single Eighth.

-20th Debater

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zex20913
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20th Debater--By your argument, you agree that there is a second Eighth (along with a third, a fourth, and so on). And you also state that there are "eight versions of all unique locations", including our sky. Since there is a sky in "our" Eighth, there is a sky in the second Eighth, which could only be rightly called the second sky.

Your argument proves my point.

7th Debater.

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Chaco
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No, my argument is that the single Eighth that we live upon is comprised of the eight copies of everything. I am saying that one single sky covers the entire Eighth, not eight seperate skies. You cannot tell where one sky ends and the next sky begins, just as you cannot tell where one part of the Eighth ends and the next part begins, so there is clearly one Eighth and one sky, even though one can eventually find oneself back where one started if one heads East or West for eternity. My point is that just because parts of the ground are duplicated does not necessarily mean the sky is duplicated in the same way.

Clearly if eight worlds existed right next to one another, they would not necessarily be exactly identical, just as all the continents of our Eighth are not exactly identical. The same ought to apply to the sky.

-20th Debater

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[Last edited by Chaco at 05-18-2008 01:08 AM]

mrimer
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zex20913 wrote:
Of course, had the statement been "There is a second sky beneath the ground", my argument may have been totally different.

It seems like you are trying to cover a dubious line of reasoning with a sensationalistic tangent, but your tactic won't work. We all know that the Empire is under the ground, and there certainly is no sky there. Otherwise, we surely would have been notified of the matter.

3rd Debater

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[Last edited by mrimer at 05-18-2008 01:13 AM]

zex20913
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20th Debater--One can not tell where the ground of our Eighth begins or ends at Northern Point, either. Yet you say that the ground has seven copies, but the sky does not? This argument is on very shaky ground. Do you have proof that the sky is not like the ground? Please provide us with some empirical evidence for your claim that there is one sky covering the Eighth.

I, for one, reference the study of Blurricus the Third, where he had discovered a material that was lighter than the air (by taking out all the heavy parts, and collecting the part that tried to float away--but you are all certainly aware of this already). Blurricus the Third had tied a string to his newfound creation, and recorded the reactions of his peers as he strolled through the market.

Imagine an extremely long string, long enough to touch the sky, using 1683rd Debater's definition of "the upper air". If you deny the existence of some beginning for the upper air, then you deny the existence of the first sky, which is purely nonsense.

Back to our string attached to Blurricus' globe. You have already agreed that there are seven replicas of our instrument. Were we to take it to Northern point, the eight globes would meet in the upper air, causing us to observe the eighth sky, and by default, the second sky.

3rd Debater--your argument served you well for cake in the past, however, I do not believe that you have disproved my original argument, in that it shows what I did not argue--that there is no second sky beneath the ground. My argument is for the second sky existing above the ground. The ninth sky is the questionable sky, but certainly not the second.

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mrimer
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If we are to examine 1st Tinkerer's certified topographical map of the Aboveground, we can plainly discern that it folds on itself not eight, but nine times, making a unified whole.

3rd Debater

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calamarain
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Gentlemen, gentlemen... need you forget the Ultimate Parental Argument? I was recently discussing this with my family, and I asked them what they thought about the concept of the second sky... my brothers thought that it did not exist, but my mother came up with an absolutely unbeatable argument for why it must.

"So, Mother, do you think a second sky exists?"
"Of course it does?"
"But why?"
"Because I said so. Now go set the table."

What possible retort is there for an argument like that, from a parent?

35th Debater

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Chaco
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35th Debater - yes, but the Ultimate Parental Argument can also be used in the negative, so in the end it doesn't mean very much.

7th Debater - You are not understanding my point. My point is that although entities, objects, particles, locations, etc. are duplicated, one cannot say that the entire Eighth is. Our Eighth is defined as the entire world that we live in, which encompasses all eight copies of the unique section of the world. These eight areas are all part of one Eighth.

Perhaps I was over-hasty when I included the sky as one of the singular items. But I am uncertain as to whether your argument automatically means we have a "second sky" as well as a third, fourth, fifth, etc. We don't have a second Eighth, or a third eighth, or so on and so forth, we only have one Eighth. Cannot it be true that there is only one sky?

I am beginning to think this aspect of the argument is merely a question of linguistics, and we all know how unreliable language is as a medium of thought.

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Moo
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3rd and 7th Debaters:
Ah, but the second sky is not beneath the ground, for it is the first sky which is there!
We haven't been notified of this matter as we are all familiar with it already, and, who would notify us anyway? 1st First-sky-existance-notifier? I think not.

There is also a second sky, the sky of the abovegrounders. Few of us have seen this, but its existance has clearly been recorded. There may be yet further skies, known to the abovegrounders, but they would be the third, fourth, etc skies, if they do exist, and are of no interest to us.
Perhaps our familiarity with the first sky is what is causing all this debate.

You may argue that there is no sky beneathground, or, that it is not really a sky at all. But that would show you have been misinformed, or corrupted by the chaotic thoughts of the abovegrounders.
If there were no sky, what would seperate us from the abovegrounders? What would provide our light? Clouds, fog and lightning are well-documented occurences in the beneath. These have also been noticed in the sky of the abovegrounders.

This first sky can be seen here:


I rest my case.
214th Debater.
(somewhat late, as always)

NiroZ
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And Finished!

Well done to all that entered, I was impressed with what you guys came up with given such little information.

Now that the debating is over, I encourage you in the crowd to cheer for your favourite debator, preferably by linking directly to their post. And remember, only cheer once, as nobody likes a obnoxiously noisy spectator.

hartleyhair
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Hoorah, 35th Debater! Your arguments are almost indisputable!

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calamarain
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Huzzah for 7th Debater!

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noma
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I am truly torn. Both the 42nd and 20th Debaters made excellent arguments. If I may, I would prefer to split my "huzzah" between them. If I cannot, I must give my nod to the 20th Debater, if only for his comment on linguistics.

Jatopian
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I enthusiastically express my support for 42.

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Beef Row
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Huzzah to 7th for that devious 8 skies arguement!

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bachus
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I'll go with the 214th Debater!

NiroZ
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Having conferred with our panel of judges, the empire has investigated the arguments of the debaters and come to the conclusion that although there have been many skilled arguments against it, the 'it is the same sky everywhere' argument has won out, and thus the positive side have won.

However, that does not mean that all is lost for the negative side, as 7th Debater (zex20913) through his skilled use of facts that we know about the eighth, with minimal flights of fantasy, is pronounced the winner of this debate. Runner up is 3399th Debater (Noma), for her grounded approach in dealing with the subject matter, and her refutations of other arguments. 3rd place goes to 214th Debater (Moo), because despite his agnostic approach to the subject, he proved to be an upstanding member of the empire (Unlike those abovegrounders who tried to influence our debate) and still managed to deliver a strong argument.

Well done to you all (except the spies), now back to work.

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[Last edited by NiroZ at 05-20-2008 09:48 AM]

Jatopian
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Can I express bitterness and rage now, or is that unseemly?

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calamarain
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It's terribly unseemly.

But express it anyway, it'll be amusing.

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NiroZ
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I'm a bit confused as to why someone would carry bitterness and rage over a semi informal contest result. If you think you have a legitimate reason, go for it, but just don't make me regret saying this.

bflatjeff
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I suspect that Jatopian is merely staying "in character" and is "bitter" about being on the losing side of the debate, rather than angry at how the contest was run. Forgive me for speaking for you if that's not so, Jatopian.

BbJ

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NiroZ
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bflatjeff wrote:
I suspect that Jatopian is merely staying "in character" and is "bitter" about being on the losing side of the debate, rather than angry at how the contest was run. Forgive me for speaking for you if that's not so, Jatopian.

BbJ

Bitterness and discontent in the Empire? Heresy!

Jatopian
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calamarain wrote:
It's terribly unseemly.

Of course. Of course. Must... suppress... emotion...

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Briareos
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Jatopian wrote:

calamarain wrote:
It's terribly unseemly.

Of course. Of course. Must... suppress... emotion...

You wouldn't have forgotten to take your Prozium, would you?

np: Saul Williams - Control Freak (Saul Williams)

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