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Tuttle
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icon Re: Depicting the DROD Number (0)  
My first ideas in this contest were actually along those lines -- D'ni squares are base 25, so with a couple of new markings (positional dots etc) you have base 100. 10 of those and you have a 20-digit number. :) I actually had ways to group squares into larger glyphs so you only needed a few of them. It always ended up being just a bit too sprawling for my liking though, not to mention that ripping off D'ni numbers like that is fairly unoriginal.

[Last edited by Tuttle at 01-26-2008 04:44 AM]
01-26-2008 at 04:43 AM
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eb0ny
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At this moment I am trying to figure out a system, which would allow to "grow" a pattern while at the same time being simple enough to satisfy the requirements. No results so far :(

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01-26-2008 at 07:12 AM
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RuAdam
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quote:
Tuttle wrote:
Wrt the need for a decodability test, here's a system which is easy to encode but a pain to decode



Well I see your point, but actually decoding is still "follow the encoding instructions backwards" :P . I mean your system simply requires to read the number, no decoding at all, it has to be the easiest right? :)
What I was trying to say, that while decodabiliy is also an important factor, it is in the most cases similar to encoding. And that I find the name of the test a bit misleading. And that I thought that something like recogniseability should also be a factor. (But I know it's a bit late for rule modifying so nevermind :) )
01-26-2008 at 07:42 AM
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Tuttle
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quote:
RuAdam wrote:
Well I see your point, but actually decoding is still "follow the encoding instructions backwards" :P . I mean your system simply requires to read the number, no decoding at all, it has to be the easiest right? :)
Um, no. Maybe it'd help if I attached a picture of 3141592654. :) I reckon it's decodable, but it'd take a whole lot longer than it would take to encode it.

I do see your point about recognisability, but ultimately I don't think it's an important part of a number system. Pretend for a second that your mobile phone doesn't have a memory -- whenever someone calls, all you see is a (let's say 10-digit) phone number. I don't think anyone would recognise those numbers as an image -- there's always some sort of reading/interpreting, and then plain old memory to work out who 0512345678 might be. When 0512346578 calls, although it looks similar it's a completely different person, and any sort of overall image recognition is likely to lead to mistakes. Being able to recognise the number as a whole isn't as important as being able to recognise and interpret the individual elements quickly.

It's worth remembering that all these entries need to scale -- when Erik has taken over the world, there could be 29,500,000,000,000,000,000 individual numbers from a system in use. People just aren't going to be able to recognise arbitrary numbers at a glance unless you invent that many noticeably unique symbols -- if you know both 12,684,651,468,486,894 and 12,684,651,468,468,894 then you're going to have to do some thinking to work out which is which.
01-26-2008 at 08:24 AM
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RuAdam
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It's a but hard on the eyes, but it might still be easier to decode, than a system where you actually had to remember different symols or do some math. I admit that there could be cases where decoding is much harder than encoding. And even cases where encoding is much harder than decoding.
It's true that in normal cases telling the difference betwean arbitrary numbers at glance isn't such a big concern. But in normal cases you also don't want to tattoo a number on yourself. But this is different, it's only natural that you'd want to show your DNOD to the world, so it's better to have a special number system, where the numbers look great. So when I read the "Hey, I Know You!" test I thought that this might be a special case where it's considered as a bonus, if you can recognise numbers with as few glances as possible.

But anyway I understand that I misunderstood, and thats not a major concern. I'll see if I can come up with a system that can do that anyway. (now where did I put that time machine)
01-26-2008 at 09:22 AM
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Syntax
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Tattoo your username on your arm and then ask in this thread for your number.

Passes all tests I believe.
01-26-2008 at 08:32 PM
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coppro
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No, because that doesn't satisfy the test that all future numbers are uniquely mapped as well. For instance, how would you map the number 23842534? If you say something, I'll just go register that user, thus destroying your system.
01-26-2008 at 09:07 PM
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Syntax
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coppro wrote:
No, because that doesn't satisfy the test that all future numbers are uniquely mapped as well. For instance, how would you map the number 23842534? If you say something, I'll just go register that user, thus destroying your system.

Except that I'm doing a 1 to 1 username to DROD number mapping. Not an explicit username equates to DROD number statement.

For any given two maps, and a straight bit between them, there can only be on given way to associate each value of the first map to a value of the second (bearing in mind stuff like assumptions and trees etc).
01-26-2008 at 09:11 PM
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coppro
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But you have to be able to write out the entire mapping now. You can't have mappings that are to be determined at a later date.
01-26-2008 at 09:27 PM
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Syntax
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coppro wrote:
But you have to be able to write out the entire mapping now. You can't have mappings that are to be determined at a later date.

You win.

It was a joke.
01-26-2008 at 09:31 PM
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Someone Else
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File: The DROD number.zip (618.6 KB)
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icon Re: Depicting the DROD Number (+3)  
For submission: In a circle

Encoding:
This uses a base 64 system, and its numbers are in a logical progression. Start with a North facing line, then rotate it clockwise at 45 degree intervals. The next eight numbers start with a filled space going from N to NE, then rotate as before, etc. Simply convert the decimal number into base 64 and then draw it out, with the smallest digit in the center, and expanding from that. Attached are my DROD number (1472), 29.5 quintillion, and the key.

Decoding:
It can be read from the outside in, then converted into decimal.

Tattoo test:
Click here to view the secret text


Blood test:
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Napkin test:
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"Hey, I know you!" test:
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01-26-2008 at 10:28 PM
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Tuttle
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Rules-lawyer nitpick: You're also supposed to include a depiction of 1, and I'm not sure that having it as part of the key counts. Just saying so you don't get DQed later.

On the plus side, kudos for being the first person to actually scan in a napkin. :D
01-27-2008 at 01:31 AM
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RuAdam
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File: octagon system.doc (121.5 KB)
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For submission: Octagon system

This is a base 100 system. The symbols are regular octagons with a square in the lower right corner. And inside the octagon and the square each side is connected to another one with a line. The different line combinations represent different values, and the value of the octagon and the square are added together to form the value of the symbol. (See attached document)

Encoding:
Convert the numbers into the symbols, and write the symbols one after the other like you would do with a decimal number. The edge of the symbols should meet like in the examples. (if you don't or can't remember the which symbol represents witch value, just write down all possible symbols and calculate the value of each one using the method described in decoding)

Decoding:
Simply convert the number back to decimal, witch isn't hard because it's base 100. If you don't know the value of a symbol you can calculate it with the following rules. (I think it's easier to remember these rules than the value of each symbol)
Click here to view the secret text


Tattoo test:
Click here to view the secret text


Blood test:
Click here to view the secret text


Napkin test:
Click here to view the secret text


I know you test:
Click here to view the secret text


[Last edited by RuAdam at 01-28-2008 07:00 AM]
01-27-2008 at 04:19 PM
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eb0ny
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RuAdam wrote:
For submission: Octagon system

This is rather hard to encode/decode. Maybe it's just me, but I do not see any pattern that would help remember the entire array of symbols. In my 2nd submission "Tetris blocks", for example, figures used are kind of similar to our digits we use in standard decimal. And in Someone Else's "In a circle" symbols can be memorized easily, because it is not hard to see the pattern of how to generate them. And in your system I just do not see a pattern. It passes the tattoo test nicely though, so keep up the good work.

P.S. Were there many grammatical errors in the text above? Just doesn't seem right to me.

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01-27-2008 at 07:32 PM
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RuAdam
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I'm sure there where a lot of grammatical errors, sorry. I'll try to correct what I can. (Most of the times I just mistype and don't notice)

Actually there is a pattern that works until you reach straight lines. Place curves in this order: small curves, medium curves, large curves. If we create a 3 digit number the following way: the first digit shows how many large curves here are in the symbol, the second stands for the number of medium curves, and the last for the number of the small ones, then the numbers of the symbols go like this 004, 022, 040, 103, 121, 121, 220, 301, 400. After that the order brakes up a bit, but even that part has some logic, just a bit more complicated.

And decoding is a lot easier than encoding. I could calculate the value of a symbol quite easily when I tried it myself. Although I admit that there are more easily decodable ones. But you don't have to convert bases, just write down one number after the other, and the symbols aren't completely random.

[Last edited by RuAdam at 01-28-2008 07:01 AM]
01-28-2008 at 06:54 AM
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eb0ny
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Okay, you convinced me.

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01-28-2008 at 07:35 PM
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Elfstone
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For Submission.

I was intrigued by this Contest, but my initial response was - "forget it, you don't know anything like enough about Maths". However resting in the conservatory this afternoon my mind kept coming back to this and, to cut a long story short, I've come up with an idea - I think. :unsure I've tried to read bits and pieces of the conversation in this thread and much of it is just so far over my head, so I'm feeling a bit exposed, but reckoning that the worst you can do is tell me that what I've come up with is nonsense ... :blush

(I will have to make 4 posts to attach all the files because I haven't a clue how to combine them. If some kind soul could combine them for me I would be very grateful and I could delete the extraneous posts.)

The attached file is Erik's magic (Really Big!) number. (29,516,334,375,000,000,000,000)

Click here to view the secret text


Edit: - Techant has very kindly combined all four files for me and you can find it attached to her post below this. So I am going to delete my other 3 posts which are now superfluous.

2nd Edit: tidying up my explanation in the light of captainzakku's comments.

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[Last edited by Elfstone at 01-31-2008 03:00 PM]
01-28-2008 at 08:35 PM
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techant
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icon Re: Depicting the DROD Number (+1)  
Well I check yours out and aside from it needing a title, consider "Star Sword", I didn't see anything amiss but my math skill are probably less then yours. :D

But my Gimp skill are higher, so attached is a comb full size. I have it half the size if you like. 22KB

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[Last edited by techant at 01-31-2008 08:24 AM]
01-31-2008 at 08:21 AM
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captainzakku
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quote:
Elfstone wrote:
If two or three of the numbers are the same number, they combine into one black circle...


Just to fill in one step that I'm assuming is the case: If the first and third number are the same, then you get a black circle with red on the middle number?

quote:
Elfstone wrote
In place of coloured circles I used the standard Runic straight line; one stroke for the first number, 2 for the second and three for the third. It’s not as aesthetically pleasing but it works.


I get how this works when all three numbers are different, but what about when they are the same? Take 112 as an example. If we add one straight line to the first circle, as one is the first number, then add two more lines, as it is the second number as well, we end up with three straight lines. Now we put three lines through the second circle, because "2" is the final number. You end up with 3 lines in the first circle, 3 lines in the second circle, which could be either 112, or 221.

I might have misunderstood something in the explanation, but it might help to clarify that part a little.

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01-31-2008 at 02:09 PM
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Elfstone
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captainzakku wrote: Just to fill in one step that I'm assuming is the case: If the first and third number are the same, then you get a black circle with red on the middle number?
- yes! I should have included that - I'll go back and edit.

quote:
captainzakku wrote:
quote:
Elfstone wrote: In place of coloured circles I used the standard Runic straight line . . .

I get how this works when all three numbers are different, but what about when they are the same? . . . I might have misunderstood something in the explanation, but it might help to clarify that part a little.


In the "Drawn in Blood" version for 2 (or 3) numbers the same I would draw a little square (which would effectively be 3 parallel lines overlapping each other a little). So in your example - 112 - there would be a square on "1" and the 3-stroke-asterisk thing on '2'.
221 on the other hand would have a box on '2' and the 3-stroke-asterisk thing on '1'.
Just to complete the examples, 212 would have a box on '2' and the 2-stroke-flattened-X thing on '1'.

Many thanks for making me tidy up my explanation captain :) and thanks also to Techant for combining my four files. :thumbsup

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01-31-2008 at 02:54 PM
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calamarain
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Query... I know this contest is the January contest - but doesn't anyone think it's set for a bit long?

Started on the 12th of January. Ends on the 18th of February. That's more than a month for the contest, and by the time it's done, we're already 2/3 of the way through February.

Just an observation, it seems odd that a monthly contest runs for more than a month.

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01-31-2008 at 11:06 PM
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ErikH2000
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quote:
calamarain wrote:
Query... I know this contest is the January contest - but doesn't anyone think it's set for a bit long?

I made an attempt to promote the contest outside of the forum, and I figured that needed more time to get people to come by and visit. But my promotion didn't work very well, actually.

Still, the deadline stays as-is, since I don't see the longer contest time as hurting anything and I prefer not to confuse people with changes.

-Erik

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02-01-2008 at 02:38 AM
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Mattcrampy
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I've started the February contest a little early, and it's ideally going to run around the DROD Number contest so that the downtimes we always have between the close of entries and the judging, and the judging and the next contest, can be filled up by the start of the next stage of the other contest.

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02-01-2008 at 04:37 AM
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calamarain
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quote:
ErikH2000 wrote:
quote:
calamarain wrote:
Query... I know this contest is the January contest - but doesn't anyone think it's set for a bit long?

I made an attempt to promote the contest outside of the forum, and I figured that needed more time to get people to come by and visit. But my promotion didn't work very well, actually.

Still, the deadline stays as-is, since I don't see the longer contest time as hurting anything and I prefer not to confuse people with changes.

-Erik
Fair enough. I was just curious really :)

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02-01-2008 at 10:27 AM
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Znirk
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I know it's really too late to point this out, but I noticed something while working on an entry ...
quote:
Erik wrote in the Illumination:
So the maximum number of humans that could live on Earth between 1997 (first DROD release) and forever is about 29,516,334,375,000,000,000,000.

The DROD games have had an average "conversion rate" of about 1%. [...] So my market is capped at 29.5 quintillion customers.

295 quintillion methinks, unless it's the maximum number of humans above that is wrong -- I didn't check on our beloved leader's multiplication skills.
02-01-2008 at 05:57 PM
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Znirk
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File: spirals.png (47.4 KB)
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For submission
Spiraling Shape, or: "It's only ugly when I draw it"
Base-100 digits written along a spiral

Longcat is long. So's this explanation.
Click here to view the secret text


The image:
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[Last edited by Znirk at 02-07-2008 01:27 PM : Now that I look at it, the ones are not actually on the "bottom" row in the picture.]
02-02-2008 at 04:31 PM
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eb0ny
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For submission #3: Bent pins

I am a very tidy person, as you might have already guessed.
Click here to view the secret text

EDIT: Fixed a minor ambiguity, when handling zeroes.

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[Last edited by eb0ny at 02-13-2008 10:40 AM]
02-02-2008 at 07:03 PM
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Someone Else
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One thing Erik:
What if spammers make multiple accounts? Won't that push the number above 29.5 quintillion?
02-04-2008 at 10:14 PM
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golfrman
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29.5 quintillion drod players, not 29.5 quintillion forum accounts.

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02-04-2008 at 11:13 PM
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zex20913
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But we've been assigning numbers based off of the DROD forum.

Of course, that doesn't mean we couldn't assign a spammer's number to somebody else. Just that we haven't yet.

Or, the spammer is a person too, and they get a DROD number.

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02-05-2008 at 11:44 AM
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