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ErikH2000
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In this age, Eighthers demand to know what kind of world they live in. How wide, how long, and what flavor? Benedat, our first hero of Constructed Thought, brought to us the following knowledge:

- The surface of our world is shaped as a slice from a pie with eight portions, thusforthly we have named it "the Eighth".
- Although there is but one Eighth, it is aligned alongside itself, giving the appearance of seven other slices if one has sufficient courage to approach the North Point and observe west or east of oneself.
- Sailing in one direction at constant latitude, one may eventually reach the original location, and accomplish nothing by this excursion.
- At the North Point, lies Sun Island, which spews forth the sun itself from a hollow peak.
- The Eighth, though resembling a pie, tastes nothing like one, unless of course, the comparison pie were fashioned out of dirt, in which case the experiment has not been conducted correctly.

Others have produced measures of distance between various points, mainly using lengths of rope attached to large migratory birds. After sufficient analysis, we firmly guess that the Eighth is 5,000 miles from any location on the southern border to the North Point. By travel, we have discovered continents, islands, oceans, seas, lakes, and rivers. We have learned where our fellow men dwell, friend and foe alike. We have witnessed the great wonders created by man and nature. So much is known in these modern times, yet it remains scattered in various minds of the wise and educated. Now we must make permanent records of our geography, political boundaries, travel routes, and other locations of interest.

There are some that object to the creation of maps. Many towns have carefully guarded their location as a defense from invasion. Would not cartography quickly become a tool of conquest? As the argument goes, no King sets forth to conquer lands of which he has no knowledge, therefore it would be best to create false maps, or no maps at all. To those that value their obscurity, we plan to offer the following service: For a small fee we will put the name of your town on our Do Not Visit list, which will be distributed with every copy of our maps. The list may also state a reason of your choosing for not visiting such as "Afflicted by Mad Groin Plague" or "We Don't Have Money, Turnips, or Anything Else You'd Want." Surely this will dissuade most hostile ambitions.

Others, the romantic explorers among us, treasure the prospect of random journeys to unknown destinations. They fear that all joy in the world as a place of mystery will be lost to them. Why should the world be ruthlessly identified and classified? To these we answer: Look, we're tired of having to ask for directions and hearing stuff like, "Way yonder, past three green hills, and a smaller hill which is actually a compost pile, and there at the end of a partially submerged ravine, you may find my brother Nuddley, who knows people that could give better directions." It isn't a good situation when you are just trying to get over to your relatives in time for Brucklemas Fest. So we're going to make a decent map here, and you don't have to use it if you don't want to.

We proclaim that all cartographers are obligated to share their knowledge for the betterment of mankind. Let us now devise our maps independantly with what knowledge we have gathered and to the best of our skills. We shall convene in the fair coastal city of Mellenfral, in Professor Drictum's High Room, on the Second Day of Twissuary, Seventy-Eight years after Benedat's Discovery. There we shall review the work of each contributor and deliberate on how the Master Map of the Eighth shall be devised.

We accept the sad irony that many of our esteemed community members will have difficulty in finding Mellenfral due to the lack of correct and comprehensive maps. But if you are on the main continent, it's really simple: walk in any direction until you reach the ocean, then follow the coast in either direction and surely you will find us. Of course, you might be confused about whether or not your continent is the main continent, or even if you are on a continent. For this, we can only offer the following advice: when you have reached the highest point of your land mass, you may see ocean along the entire horizon. In this case, you are not on one of the continents, but are, in fact, on an island. If you still don't know how to get to Mellenfral, (which is a lovely place to visit for any reason--ah, the graceful blombadils in Twissuary!) try asking the person who delivered this message to you. If that person doesn't know the way, chances are it's because someone else gave this message to him, in which case you should find that other person and ask him, following the chain of delivery and asking more people as needed, until eventually you will find someone that has successfully made the journey from Mellenfral and can give you trustworthy advice, unless that one happens to be a large migratory bird.

Rules for Contest

Make a map using any methods you like (computer, hand-drawn, elbow-drawn), and get it into an image file. Accepted file formats are PNG, JPG, or GIF. The image can be absolutely humongous if you want, but keep the file size under a megabyte so it can be posted on the forum, and people have a reasonable chance of viewing it with standard software. E-mail this file to me by 1/15/04.

By submitting your map and entering this contest, you are giving Caravel Software permission to copy and distribute your ideas, names, artwork, and any other content on the map. A purpose of this contest is specifically to "steal" some ideas from the fans, and reuse them for our business of building the DROD mythos. If you aren't okay with this, then please don't submit your map.

You may submit as many entries as you like, but if you are aiming to win, consider that your entries may compete with each other and draw away votes. You should not post your maps on the forum or elsewhere to solicit feedback. (Bad showmanship!) Try not to send me multiple versions of the same map; work on your map until it's done, then send it to me.

I'll be posting all of the entries to the forum at one time after 1/15 and each entry (not each person) will be listed as one poll choice. Authors of maps won't be revealed until after the contest has ended, so if an author wishes to remain anonymous for the vote it is entirely up to him to be discrete. (Agaricus, I realize it will probably be impossible for you to make an anonymous entry, since you've described the unique style of your intended map--my apologies.) I don't want artistic skill to be the deciding factor, and will ask for people not to judge that way, but I'm sure it helps if you can present your map clearly. I'll ask people voting to consider the following factors:

- Interesting ideas.
- Good names for places.
- Appealing geographical features.
- Consistency with descriptions of the Eighth found so far. (See "Story Collaboration" and "Kingdoms of the Eighth" topics on the forum. See the Stories section on the site.)

Whoever receives the most votes after a certain period of time will win the contest. The prize is any item of your choosing from the DROD Store. Later I'll put together a Master Map of the Eighth and mingle ideas from the map entries along with my own. So even if you don't win, you might like seeing some of your ideas become official.

If anyone would like to make a map, but feels silly putting it in a competition with some of the more serious contenders, please just make the thing and submit it anyway. This can be just for fun! Maybe someone will get a good chuckle out of it, or you might hit upon a nice little gem that we can use in the Eighth. (I am still looking for the right place to use the word "Mothingness".) If you've got 15 minutes to scrawl something on the back of a napkin, it's worth sending it to me.

The flipside of this: If you have ambitious ideas for a map, but are afraid of being a contest bully by taking too much time on the map and raising the bell curve... well, don't ever apologize for an inspired piece of work. All's fair in love and cartography!

-Erik

[Edited by ErikH2000 on 12-24-2003 at 01:00 AM GMT: 15,000 changed to 5,000.]

[Edited by ErikH2000 on 12-24-2003 at 11:51 PM GMT: Additional rules and clarification.]

[Edited by ErikH2000 on 12-25-2003 at 01:01 AM GMT: Comments about anonymity.]

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12-23-2003 at 10:28 PM
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agaricus5
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quote:
ErikH2000 wrote:
Others have produced measures of distance between various points, mainly using lengths of rope attached to large migratory birds. After sufficient analysis, we firmly guess that the Eighth is 15,000 miles from any location on the southern border to the North Point.

Oh my God, Erik!

The pie is absolutely massive!

A slice therefore has the area of 88.4 million miles^2 and the entire thing has an area of 706 million miles^2.

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12-23-2003 at 10:52 PM
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ErikH2000
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agaricus5 wrote:
The pie is absolutely massive!


15,000 miles--that's not so unreasonable is it? I think the distance between the south pole and north pole of the Earth travelling over the surface is 12,450 miles, right? My goal is just to have a map that when you look at it, the land masses are fairly easy to scale in your head based on your experience looking at regular maps of Earth.

Maybe I screwed up horribly. What's the surface area of the Earth? As long as the surface area of the Eighth is less than the Earth's, but not smaller than 10% of the Earth's, I think we will stick with 15,000 miles from southern border to northern point.

-Erik

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12-23-2003 at 11:45 PM
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agaricus5
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quote:
ErikH2000 wrote:
quote:
agaricus5 wrote:
The pie is absolutely massive!


15,000 miles--that's not so unreasonable is it? I think the distance between the south pole and north pole of the Earth travelling over the surface is 12,450 miles, right? My goal is just to have a map that when you look at it, the land masses are fairly easy to scale in your head based on your experience looking at regular maps of Earth.

Maybe I screwed up horribly. What's the surface area of the Earth? As long as the surface area of the Eighth is less than the Earth's, but not smaller than 10% of the Earth's, I think we will stick with 15,000 miles from southern border to northern point.

-Erik

Guess what! I just hit the back button for some strange reason, so I've lost all my previous message.

Here is the main point:

The Earth's radius is about 3950 miles, so its circumference is 24800 miles but its surface area is about 65.4 million miles, making the pie more than 11 times its size.

I think the pie is far too big.

[Edited by agaricus5 on 12-24-2003 at 12:24 AM GMT]

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12-24-2003 at 12:23 AM
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The_Red_Hawk
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Well, thanks a lot for posting this, I will almost certainly enter.

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12-24-2003 at 12:41 AM
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ErikH2000
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agaricus5 wrote:
The Earth's radius is about 3950 miles, so its circumference is 24800 miles but its surface area is about 65.4 million miles, making the pie more than 11 times its size.

Sheesh, I knew I'd have to do some math before it was all over...

The surface area of the Eighth is much smaller by my calculations. First I figure out the surface area of the pie (the Eighth repeated 8 times to make a whole pie) as 706.5 thousand square miles (15,000 * 15,000 * 3.14). Then I divide that by 8 to get the surface area of the Eighth: 88.3 thousand square miles.

So we are doing our calculations much differently. Where is the difference?

-Erik

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12-24-2003 at 12:42 AM
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ErikH2000 wrote:
The surface area of the Eighth is much smaller by my calculations. First I figure out the surface area of the pie (the Eighth repeated 8 times to make a whole pie) as 706.5 thousand square miles (15,000 * 15,000 * 3.14). Then I divide that by 8 to get the surface area of the Eighth: 88.3 thousand square miles.

So we are doing our calculations much differently. Where is the difference?

The difference is that you should use a calculator. :) 15K * 15K * 3.14 is 706.5 million, not thouand.

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12-24-2003 at 12:44 AM
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Schik wrote:
The difference is that you should use a calculator. :) 15K * 15K * 3.14 is 706.5 million, not thouand.

Now I'm mad. At my brain for being stupid. Let's try it again with a different number. Going back up to edit my post...

-Erik



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12-24-2003 at 12:58 AM
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In the contest, are we expected to add names that go with the dungeons already made? (i.e. Bavatoville, Smallsomeopolis, or whatever).

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12-24-2003 at 01:35 AM
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ErikH2000
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The_Red_Hawk wrote:
In the contest, are we expected to add names that go with the dungeons already made? (i.e. Bavatoville, Smallsomeopolis, or whatever).

No, only if you want to.

-Erik

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12-24-2003 at 02:16 AM
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Hurrah!

If you want to be technically accurate, please also check out The Eighth Pinned Down, which should give you lots of detail as well.

Although I'm definitely entering.

Matt

[Edited by Mattcrampy on 12-31-2003 at 04:45 PM GMT]

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12-24-2003 at 05:57 AM
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ErikH2000
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Mattcrampy wrote:
Although I'm definitely entering.


Excellent! I was hoping you would.

So now we've got Red Hawk and Mr. Crampy making plans. Anybody else thinking about it? Clayton has to enter a map, or everyone will be severely disappointed.

-Erik


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12-24-2003 at 07:35 AM
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I might cook something up.

Then I might eat that something.

Also, I might try to create a map.
12-24-2003 at 01:20 PM
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quote:
ErikH2000 wrote:
quote:
Mattcrampy wrote:
Although I'm definitely entering.


Excellent! I was hoping you would.

So now we've got Red Hawk and Mr. Crampy making plans. Anybody else thinking about it? Clayton has to enter a map, or everyone will be severely disappointed.

-Erik


I'm considering entering, but the problem is I do not know whether or not it will be suitable for a person like me. From what you know about me, my personality is one of a very serious person, so when I do something, I'm serious about it. This means that if I do a map, I'm going to be serious about how I do it, and draw a proper map in the style of a physical relief map, much like in the style of an atlas map. The problem is that I think people may be put off by an attempt at over-reality and will prefer a hand-drawn map that's not so exact just because it's more viewer-friendly and un-complicated.

The question is... How serious can this map be? Accurate but complicated atlas style, or simpler and less complicated but less accurate, hand-drawn style?

If it's the latter, then I'll pass.

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12-24-2003 at 01:58 PM
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ErikH2000
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agaricus5 wrote:
The question is... How serious can this map be? Accurate but complicated atlas style, or simpler and less complicated but less accurate, hand-drawn style?

Well, that's a good question.

There's different ways to approach the challenge, and I think it would be a shame to shoehorn anyone into a certain style. Your unique approach is likely to bring some interesting and useful ideas. By removing the "how pretty is it?" judging criteria, we should equalize a little between people who draw maps on a notepad and people who draw maps with CAD software. Ideas are what count.

Also, I hope that nobody would be discouraged from entering a map just because they think it can't win. Competition and winning the prize is just one small aspect of this. It is fun to see what everyone comes up with, and the most hastily drawn map can contain something that becomes part of the Eighth.

-Erik

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12-24-2003 at 04:42 PM
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ErikH2000 wrote:Clayton has to enter a map, or everyone will be severely disappointed.


Gee, I dunno, this contest actually intimidates me a little.:tvhorror Aw, what the hell... Count me in. I'm not going to start it now though, I need to sleep. (Christmas-time flu sucks.):santa:sick
12-24-2003 at 10:05 PM
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Can I do my map on computer? or is it just hand-drawn?

Speaking of that, can I enter my seventeenth level?

You might have mentioned this before, but I didn't see it, so - is there a limit of submissions per person?

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12-24-2003 at 10:19 PM
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The_Red_Hawk wrote:
Can I do my map on computer? or is it just hand-drawn?

I think both are allowed - I'm doing mine on the computer.

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12-24-2003 at 11:06 PM
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ErikH2000
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The_Red_Hawk wrote:
Can I do my map on computer? or is it just hand-drawn?

Either way.
quote:
Speaking of that, can I enter my seventeenth level?

Now here I should have been more specific. I'm going back up to edit the first post and add a few more requirements.
quote:
You might have mentioned this before, but I didn't see it, so - is there a limit of submissions per person?

Multiple submissions is fine, but hopefully you can see how this could be overdone. I don't want 10 maps, each one with just slight variations, and please, no version 1, version 2, etc.

Okay, going back to the first post now. Check for a few more rules added in a few minutes.

-Erik

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12-24-2003 at 11:17 PM
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Alright, I couldn't resist. I've started work on my contest submission. But I've got two quick, simple questions:

1) Instead of a map per se, I was thinking of doing a visual representation, like a picture of the Eighth from space or a telescope. Would this be acceptable as a contest entry? If not, I'll still submit it to show my interpretation.

2) Any picture dimension limits? My current picture is 1024 x 768. I intend for it to be my desktop wallpaper when I'm finished.

[Edited by ClaytonW on 12-25-2003 at 05:42 AM GMT: Missed something in the rules.]
12-25-2003 at 05:37 AM
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ErikH2000
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ClaytonW wrote:
1) Instead of a map per se, I was thinking of doing a visual representation, like a picture of the Eighth from space or a telescope. Would this be acceptable as a contest entry? If not, I'll still submit it to show my interpretation.

That would be fine.
quote:
2) Any picture dimension limits? My current picture is 1024 x 768. I intend for it to be my desktop wallpaper when I'm finished.

1024 x 768 is perfectly reasonable. If people want to, they can get a little crazy and make huge maps that require scrolling around to see all the parts. If you can display the image in your browser (not necessarily all of it visible at once), then it is not too large. Just stay under the file size limit of one megabyte, and I'm happy.

-Erik

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12-25-2003 at 07:44 AM
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Well this will teach me to do things in the right order. I created a map that I quite liked and only then read the other threads. My map has land along the south border rather than water, so it doesn't fit with the descriptions in another thread. Changing that would be too much trouble, so I'll just start over.

If I understood things correctly, the south border is meant to connect to the north point. I don't think this can be done with any form of reasonable laws of physics. Such a space would be topologically homeomorphic with a donut where the middle hole is shrunk to a single point, but this would screw up the metrical aspects of the slice of pie (and I thought topology courses at uni would be of no practical use :P ). It would be impossible to walk north onto the north point anyway, as you would bump into yourself when you got really close.

I hope I'm not stepping on anyones toes by suggesting a change to how the south border works. I think it would be better if it was like a mirror. If you went south of it, you'd actually be going north again. This would of course not be possible as you'd bump into yourself when trying to cross the border.

The east-west connection, though, is no problem. A disc where the points are connected in such a manner is isomorphic with a cone.
12-31-2003 at 03:17 PM
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That's the idea. You couldn't technically reach the north point because you'd bump into yourself, however you also wouldn't reach the north point because it's a big mountain with a hole in it that hides the sun and it gets really hot. If you went just before sunset during winter you could probably make it, but then you've got the problem of the sun coming down on you.

There is a point where you have to draw a line and say 'it's not really real'. But, in the interests of science, what would happen if we kept the shape of the Eighth the same and kept it self-contained (so no falling off), and you crossed the southern border?

Vanishing into nothingness isn't that bad a solution, really.

Matt

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12-31-2003 at 03:30 PM
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Mattcrampy wrote:
That's the idea. You couldn't technically reach the north point because you'd bump into yourself...

OK. Serious problem.

If, like Erik said, you go into the southern border, you get exploded along the rim momentarily and then imploded at the centre of the pie. This suggests things going past the borders will continue outwards from the centre once they pass the central point. This means that there should be a colossal fountain of sea water all along the sea level point inside the mountain and a huge steam bath all along the rim.

However, if you were to "bump into yourself" at the southern border, then instead of a ring of fire as was suggested by Erik, you get a mirror image of the Eighth spreading outwards from the rim. This has two consequenses - first, that area will be extremely dark and cold (Like the Anctartic) as the sun only goes 20 miles into the sky, so 5000 miles away, this will be hidden by the mountains in the horizon (Angle of elevation = 0.22 degrees), and since the sun will not be hot enough to melt all of the centre of the Eighth, the intensity of the rays will be very low. The second is that there must be at least two iterations of the Eighth, all folded in some other dimensions so that the rims of the two meet up exactly, but so that the two iterations are still seperate from each other.

Which is it?

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12-31-2003 at 04:40 PM
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There is a colossal fountain of steam that I made up and have gotten away with over the north point. I'm not sure why there's steam around the southern rim - the sun cheats a bit, and the only hot thing that's going from north to south is air (which would probably create some cloud cover as well as eternal winds blowing south) as the water has enough momentum to stay away from the north point.

Do you mean southern, or northern in the second paragraph? I'm really rather lost.

Of course, maybe this should be continued in a different thread, as this one is pretty much for inside the borders.

Matt

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12-31-2003 at 05:00 PM
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The_Red_Hawk
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Is the "crust" at the north or the south?

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12-31-2003 at 09:28 PM
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ErikH2000
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quote:
The_Red_Hawk wrote:
Is the "crust" at the north or the south?

Like the crust end of the pie? That would be south.

Man, suddenly I have a craving for cherry cheesecake, but I can see Dr. Atkins is tut-tutting me from his cloud.

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12-31-2003 at 10:25 PM
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agaricus5
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I posted this in the "Story Collaboration" thread, but I will also post it here so map makers are more likely to see it and Erik to be aware of it.


quote:
ErikH2000 wrote:
The sun, intensely bright, would hover about ten miles above the disc's North Pole center.


Major problem, Erik.

The sun hovers about 10 miles above the surface, right?

Most of the Eighth will be pretty cold and the sun will be always low in the sky since it has a radius of 5000 miles.

If we went about 100 miles from the sun, assuming Sun Island is a few miles high, 4, and the sun floats 10 miles above the peak, the angle of elevation of the sun will be around 8 degrees.

Now, if we went to the edge of the pie, 5000 miles away, the angle of elevation of the sun will be only 0.16 degrees, meaning that it will almost never see the sun.

What this means in simple terms is that the sun will always appear almost on the horizon and the changing of height in seasons will have absolutely no effect as the sun's height is almost negligible to the pie's radius.

Please change the value to at least 1000 miles (but larger is better), allowing the inhabitants to be able to look up at the sun, rather than have to climb a mountain and look horizontally at the horizon to see it.

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01-01-2004 at 01:27 PM
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Mattcrampy
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Since when did people draw the sun on maps?

I mean apart from ornamentally. Although it's useful info, basically you can decide how much of your Eighth you want to be snow and ice and go from there.

Matt

[Edited by Mattcrampy on 01-01-2004 at 02:25 PM GMT]

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01-01-2004 at 02:24 PM
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Skylancer64
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quote:
How wide, how long, and what flavor?


I say vanilla. Or chocolate. Or apple. :D

quote:
I'm not sure why there's steam around the southern rim - the sun cheats a bit, and the only hot thing that's going from north to south is air (which would probably create some cloud cover as well as eternal winds blowing south) as the water has enough momentum to stay away from the north point.


How would it do that? If there's a fountain of steam in the center, wouldn't the steam also flow back "through the north point" and distribute along the perimeter? Just because it's being boiled doesn't mean that it flies only southward from the north point. I'm assuming that this is only when it's nighttime and the sun is down at the bottom and hiding (not in the sky).

Another problem I see with the sun being only some miles up. Wouldn't the area directly below it and southward be tremendously hot? Now, if the sun were cool enough not to incinerate the center, then the south a thousand miles down would be perpetually frozen. Even the difference on earth of a small tilt makes winter very different than in summer, affecting the angle the sun strikes the ground and the time the sun is visible.

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01-02-2004 at 02:30 AM
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