Oneiromancer
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Because I'm a nosy git, I will often check out new users when they show up at the top of the message board...you know, the "Welcome to our newest member:" message. Well, today I checked out the profile for Emmett, who is apparently a Legendary Architect!

Investigating further, I went to his website, it looks like he composes video game music. And best of all, he often offers his services to open source games for free! Awesome!

I assume we'll hear something official at some point. I am curious how involved Emmett will be with the community as well, and if he enjoys playing DROD.

Game on,

____________________________
"He who is certain he knows the ending of things when he is only beginning them is either extremely wise or extremely foolish; no matter which is true, he is certainly an unhappy man, for he has put a knife in the heart of wonder." -- Tad Williams

Emmett
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Oneiromancer says:

"I assume we'll hear something official at some point. I am curious how involved Emmett will be with the community as well, and if he enjoys playing DROD."

Something official, eh? Hmm, let me dig around here and see what I can find. I'm sorry, my studio is a bit messy. I've been writing a lot of music recently that revolves around some big-sworded badass, and he's extremely impatient.

I'm writing about an hour of music for his next big adventure. He's awfully scary, and I'm wondering if I shouldn't share audio clips from time to time with people on this forum to let them hear how things are coming along?

I am certain that the Powers That Be will have something official for everyone soon. Until then, I shall be hip-deep in sheet music. If you're interested in hearing some bits and pieces, let me know in this forum, I'll post some things up.


[Edited by Emmett on 11-22-2003 at 03:06 PM GMT]

____________________________
Emmett Plant, Composer
Funkbunny Studios & Caravel Software

Mattcrampy
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Hey, Emmett! Glad you joined up!

Part of the changes to 1.7 will be huge graphical changes - I understand the room display's being rewritten, and Erik's keen to see the GUI change as well.

Of course, Emmett's hinting at something else that will change, and I for one am glad to have him on board.

Matt, who really needs to knuckle down on the website, but then he's also got to see this woman named Zelda about some legend

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Oneiromancer
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Emmett wrote:
If you're interested in hearing some bits and pieces, let me know in this forum, I'll post some things up.

I am certain that I speak for nearly everyone when I say, "Yes, we would be very interested in hearing anything you have to share with us!"

Game on,

____________________________
"He who is certain he knows the ending of things when he is only beginning them is either extremely wise or extremely foolish; no matter which is true, he is certainly an unhappy man, for he has put a knife in the heart of wonder." -- Tad Williams

Emmett
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Alrighty... If it is DROD music samples you demand, it is DROD music samples you shall receive!

A few things, just to get them out of the way:

1) All of the samples I will be posting will be in Ogg Vorbis format. This is the format we'll be using for DROD, and I simply don't have the time to go out and encode everything in mp3 just for sound samples. I have well over an hour of music to produce for this game, and converting stuff to mp3 would just take forever. I hope this is okay with you folks.

Fortunately, there are applications that will play Ogg Vorbis all over the place. Head over to http://www.vorbis.com and see what you can get your hands on.

2) None of the samples that I post will be finished works. They're hints of what's to come, what I'm working on at the moment, et cetera. Consider them pieces from my scrapbook, if you'd be so kind. Also, a lot of them will be played 'live,' which means that I'm just cranking open the synthesizers and playing. They will not be polished works. They're just ideas, so please take it easy on me.

3) DROD is a different kind of game. The music will therefore be different, as well. In fact, one of the motifs I'm using at the moment is a waltz. A waltz in a computer game? Well, yes. This isn't just another computer game; This is DROD.

4) Please feel free at any time to drop me questions about the process of writing music for this game, or composition in general! I love talking shop (I fear I've already talked Erik's ears off), and I love hearing from people.

It was a wise man that said 'Enough jibba-jabba!' You can go get yourself some DROD samples at:

http://www.funkbunny.com/caravel/

As time goes by, I'll drop more samples into that directory, and I'll post here when I do. Thanks!

[Edited by Emmett on 11-22-2003 at 03:07 PM GMT]

____________________________
Emmett Plant, Composer
Funkbunny Studios & Caravel Software

Oneiromancer
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Oh, most excellent samples! My favorites were Beethro's Aggression, which sounds great to fight to, and Beethro's Descent, which really evoked in me feelings of a vast journey.

And let me suggest that for The Living Tar, you try to work in some of the aggravation that we all feel when trying to deal with it, especially when there is a tar mother.

Erik, you done good!

Rock on,

____________________________
"He who is certain he knows the ending of things when he is only beginning them is either extremely wise or extremely foolish; no matter which is true, he is certainly an unhappy man, for he has put a knife in the heart of wonder." -- Tad Williams

Emmett
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Oneiromancer wrote:
Oh, most excellent samples! My favorites were Beethro's Aggression, which sounds great to fight to, and Beethro's Descent, which really evoked in me feelings of a vast journey.

Thanks! Those were actually the two that got me the job, so it looks like you and Erik have the same ears. I'm not thrilled with 'Aggression,' and I'll probably be wholesale just re-writing that. Did you notice that 'Contemplative' is actually a variation on 'Descent?'

And let me suggest that for The Living Tar, you try to work in some of the aggravation that we all feel when trying to deal with it, especially when there is a tar mother.

The themes have DROD names, but that doesn't mean those themes will necessarily go to certain rooms, areas or monsters within the game itself. I just thought it would be fun to DROD the names up a little.

Besides, if I gave you aggravation when you were already aggravated, you might toss your machine out the window.


[Edited by Emmett on 11-22-2003 at 03:07 PM GMT]

____________________________
Emmett Plant, Composer
Funkbunny Studios & Caravel Software

ClaytonW
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Oneiromancer wrote:
And let me suggest that for The Living Tar, you try to work in some of the aggravation that we all feel when trying to deal with it, especially when there is a tar mother.

When I listened to The Living Tar, the first thing I thought of was Tar Babies bouncing around in a corridor toward Beethro. Probably that's because the title is The Living Tar, if it were something else, I might've pictured something else entirely.

And Emmett... Good stuff. I highly approve! My favorite was Beethro's Aggresion, I pictured the inside of a large, overly-productive factory, with steam blowing around everywhere. When I tried to apply it to DROD, I immediately thought of the unknown mechanics behind the various colored doors.

agaricus5
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Emmett wrote:
3) DROD is a different kind of game. The music will therefore be different, as well. In fact, one of the motifs I'm using at the moment is a waltz. A waltz in a computer game? Well, yes. This isn't just another computer game; This is DROD.

I've had a listen to it. Is it exactly a waltz ? I know it's in 3/4 time and there is certainly a waltzy feel to it, but it doesn't quite have a dancy feel to it. It's certainly very atmospheric though and rather inspirational too. I like it!

4) Please feel free at any time to drop me questions about the process of writing music for this game, or composition in general! I love talking shop (I fear I've already talked Erik's ears off), and I love hearing from people.

I'm a sort of composer too. I do it, not as a job (I'm still at school) but just for the plain love of music. I am composing for DROD, but not for commercial purposes. It will just be a sort of "fan-created", free-release music, although I doubt if anyone will actually want to listen to them though....

I however, am not that experienced, and my composition style is a little narrow at the moment, so would absolutely love your help with my music, if you have time, that is...

It was a wise man that said 'Enough jibba-jabba!' You can go get yourself some DROD samples at:

http://www.funkbunny.com/caravel/

As time goes by, I'll drop more samples into that directory, and I'll post here when I do. Thanks!

I liked "Beethro's Descent" a lot - it's the style of music I love to listen to and it's really atmospheric. I'd really love to hear more of it when you finish it. Well done!

____________________________
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DiMono
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Emmett wrote:
4) Please feel free at any time to drop me questions about the process of writing music for this game, or composition in general! I love talking shop (I fear I've already talked Erik's ears off), and I love hearing from people.

Hey Emmett, go check out this link for a second. The part you'll care about is that I'm the Director of Art and Music for this game my company is making, and I'd love to sit around on some Instant Messenger and talk shop with you.

yahoo: redneckcitypunk
msn: vvhat_is@hotmail.com (that's two v's, not a w)
icq: 240773524

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Emmett
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agaricus5 wrote:
I've had a listen to it. Is it exactly a waltz ? I know it's in 3/4 time and there is certainly a waltzy feel to it, but it doesn't quite have a dancy feel to it. It's certainly very atmospheric though and rather inspirational too. I like it!

It is certainly a waltz. While anything in triple-time can be considered a waltz, this piece certainly qualifies, as it emphasizes the first beat. What's throwing you here is that it starts in A and goes down in half-steps until the very end of the pattern. As DROD is all about dungeons, I've been focusing a little on patterns that drop down the scale slowly, like going down into a dungeon. I know that this is needless and that most people won't notice, but I care about these things.

As far as songs that are in triple-time but don't sound like waltzes, consider The Star-Spangled Banner, which is the National Anthem of the United States. It's in triple-time, and that's why you don't often find marching bands using it all that much. Oh, SAY can you SEE, by the DAWn's early LIght, what so PROUdly we HAIL, etc. You can barely dance to it, you can barely march to it, but it's a waltz.

I however, am not that experienced, and my composition style is a little narrow at the moment, so would absolutely love your help with my music, if you have time, that is...

I'd be more than happy to help, should I have the time. I absolutely love music, and composing is a close second in my heart. If I can help you broaden your musical horizons, I'd be happy to help.

I liked "Beethro's Descent" a lot - it's the style of music I love to listen to and it's really atmospheric. I'd really love to hear more of it when you finish it. Well done!

Thanks, I appreciate that!

____________________________
Emmett Plant, Composer
Funkbunny Studios & Caravel Software

Zmann
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Wow, great samples Emmet. Glad to have you in the DROD community. Can't wait to hear more of your work. Your music is very atmospheric. Great job!

-Zmann

EDIT: Yay, my 100'th post. Now if I multiply that by 10, I'm almost caught up to the big "O".

[Edited by Zmann on 11-23-2003 at 09:11 PM GMT]

DiMono
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great quote zmann, where's it from?

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Zmann
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Um, I actually don't remember where its from. I heard it once somewhere, and it always stuck with me.

-Zmann

Oneiromancer
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There's a hole-in-the-wall hot dog stand in L.A. on Ventura Boulevard called The Weiner Factory, and inside the walls are covered with "witty" sayings like Zmann's signature; in fact, I think that one or one very similar to it is up there. There is also a great cartoon on the wall drawn by Sergio Aragones of Mad Magazine and Groo the Wanderer fame. At one point they painted the walls and rewrote all the sayings but they totally left the drawing alone, so its background is a different color than the rest of the walls.

Anyway, my favorite quote from there is:

If pro is the opposite of con, what is the opposite of progress?



Game on,

____________________________
"He who is certain he knows the ending of things when he is only beginning them is either extremely wise or extremely foolish; no matter which is true, he is certainly an unhappy man, for he has put a knife in the heart of wonder." -- Tad Williams

Emmett
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I'd just like to give Oneiromancer mad props for mentioning Groo The Wanderer, one of the best comics that's ever existed, in my personal opinion. I see a lot of Groo in Beethro, and I think that's a good thing.

If anyone cares to try to find some old Groo, I believe that Marvel published it for a while. Art by Sergio Aragones, a lot of writing by Mark Evanier, who has also done a lot tremendous writing work for TV and in the funny papers.

____________________________
Emmett Plant, Composer
Funkbunny Studios & Caravel Software

Oneiromancer
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Wow, what a perfect topic to mention Groo in then! Beethro at least is a lot smarter than Groo, except for Epic #100 where Groo actually became smart and learned to read. But it didn't last long, because the basic thing around which each issue revolves is how stupid Groo is. But he has two big swords and likes to kill things first and ask questions later (usually because he forgets to ask first). So yeah, very similar to Beethro in that way.

I should mention that I have a Groo sketch from Mr. Aragones sitting right here on my desk at home...nicely framed in a little plastic box. It's signed "To Neil Mad-ly! Aragones 87"

Game on,

____________________________
"He who is certain he knows the ending of things when he is only beginning them is either extremely wise or extremely foolish; no matter which is true, he is certainly an unhappy man, for he has put a knife in the heart of wonder." -- Tad Williams

ErikH2000
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Oneiromancer wrote:
I should mention that I have a Groo sketch from Mr. Aragones sitting right here on my desk at home...nicely framed in a little plastic box. It's signed "To Neil Mad-ly! Aragones 87"

What a treasure! I used to love that comic. How did Sergio have time to draw in all those hyper-detailed scenes? It was good stuff for sure.

-Erik

____________________________
The Godkiller - Chapter 1 available now on Steam. It's a DROD-like puzzle adventure game.
dev journals | twitch stream | youtube archive (NSFW)

Oneiromancer
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According to Mark Evanier (M.E. who did a lot of the writing and answered the letters in the back, as Emmett mentioned and as you probably know), Sergio was just a really, really quick drawer. It was basically his trademark. He could draw three times as fast as any other comic book artist, but since he drew three times as much stuff as any other comic book artist it all evened out. Of course the colorist and the inker didn't see it that way.

My Grandma actually got me the sketch; Sergio was visiting a comic book store in Santa Barbara, where she lives, and she knew I loved the comic, since she had gotten me subscriptions for birthdays of mine. So she went in to the comic book store and stood in line to get it for me. I don't know if that's something he usually does or not but he did it that time.

Game on,

____________________________
"He who is certain he knows the ending of things when he is only beginning them is either extremely wise or extremely foolish; no matter which is true, he is certainly an unhappy man, for he has put a knife in the heart of wonder." -- Tad Williams

Sokko
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Awesome music! It's much better than what we have now, by far (not insulting you, Erik, of course ), and I hope to see more of your work in the near future! My favorite music was "Contemplative"; it sounded like great music to figure out a tough puzzle to. I would convert those OGGs to MP3 for the convenience of our fellow forummers, but I fear they'd be over the attachment limit.

P.S. I'm really looking forward to "situational music" that changes depending on what the room is like. Maybe it could even change multiple times for the same room! One thing I'd definitely like to see is a victory ditty that plays when you clear a room. Those little things always make me feel like I've really accomplished something!

[Edited by Sokko on 11-30-2003 at 01:01 PM GMT]

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Emmett
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Sokko sez:

P.S. I'm really looking forward to "situational music" that changes depending on what the room is like. Maybe it could even change multiple times for the same room! One thing I'd definitely like to see is a victory ditty that plays when you clear a room. Those little things always make me feel like I've really accomplished something!

The problem with the above is two-fold.

1) Writing music that dynamically changes with the game is a huge pain in the patookus.

2) Dynamic music within a game that changes as the situation changes is covered by LucasArts' iMUSE patent, which is the primary reason you don't see it done by small companies like Caravel.

I don't really know how the music is going to be handled in the the commercial release of DROD; This kind of stuff is really Erik's call, I have a sheet of 'kinds' of music to write, so I believe the kind of music in a particular level or dungeon may change on a situational basis, but I don't think we're going to hear the music change dynamically within a room.

As far as 'completing a room' music, I don't know. It's a little too Final Fantasy. If Erik wants me to do this kind of thing, I'll do it, but I'll probably insist that we use a bunch of different ones. I don't know how many times I heard that freakin' 'da-nana-NA da NAnaNAA!' during FF, but it was approximately 700 times too many.



____________________________
Emmett Plant, Composer
Funkbunny Studios & Caravel Software

eytanz
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Emmett wrote:
Sokko sez:

P.S. I'm really looking forward to "situational music" that changes depending on what the room is like. Maybe it could even change multiple times for the same room! One thing I'd definitely like to see is a victory ditty that plays when you clear a room. Those little things always make me feel like I've really accomplished something!

The problem with the above is two-fold.

1) Writing music that dynamically changes with the game is a huge pain in the patookus.

2) Dynamic music within a game that changes as the situation changes is covered by LucasArts' iMUSE patent, which is the primary reason you don't see it done by small companies like Caravel.

Can you patent something like that? I mean, they could clearly patent the technology, but if someone creates (or reverse engineers) a new technology that does the same thing, how can the patent apply? If, for instance, I code a game that has an actual live orchestra providing the soundtrack (obviously, it's an expensive game), and that they dynamically change their selection according to the game's progress - can I be sued by Lucasarts?

[Edited by eytanz on 12-03-2003 at 11:08 PM GMT]

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Oneiromancer
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If you were to make victory music, I can think of a few ideas. First of all, is each room going to be assigned its own piece of music? Or will it be chosen randomly per room, or just continuously stream between rooms? Hopefully we can make some kind of choice, so that those hold authors who really want a certain kind of music for a particular room can do so, while others who are lazy can let there be a random distribution. But in any case, for every full song, perhaps there could be a unique victory and/or death song/effect? Depending on how many different themes you have, this could be a lot of work, but then again, the ideas might just make themselves obvious while working on the music so it wouldn't be too bad.

Another option could be a few different victory songs/effects, which would depend on how quickly you beat the room, or how many monsters were killed, for example. Like if you beat it quickly the music is full of energy, but if the room takes a long time then the music is notably tired. Again, I'm not sure how hard this would be, but it is a thought.

Game on,

____________________________
"He who is certain he knows the ending of things when he is only beginning them is either extremely wise or extremely foolish; no matter which is true, he is certainly an unhappy man, for he has put a knife in the heart of wonder." -- Tad Williams

ErikH2000
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eytanz wrote:
Can you patent something like that?

Well, they did. I've read the thing and it's pretty general, such that a layman like myself can see how it would apply to things I would like to do. It might be that I could figure a way to do interactive music in a legally distinct way, but I don't have money for legal battles, so we won't risk it. Plus, we need to finish 1.7 quickly, so the sound system should not be too ambitious. The good news is that the iMuse patent will expire soon--I think next year, if I understand it right.

In case you are interested, the patent# is 5,315,057 and the complicated URL below might take you to the patent:
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=/netahtml/srchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=5,315,057.WKU.&OS=PN/5,315,057&RS=PN/5,315,057

-Erik

____________________________
The Godkiller - Chapter 1 available now on Steam. It's a DROD-like puzzle adventure game.
dev journals | twitch stream | youtube archive (NSFW)

Emmett
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eytanz said:

Can you patent something like that? I mean, they could clearly patent the technology, but if someone creates (or reverse engineers) a new technology that does the same thing, how can the patent apply? If, for instance, I code a game that has an actual live orchestra providing the soundtrack (obviously, it's an expensive game), and that they dynamically change their selection according to the game's progress - can I be sued by Lucasarts?

As Erik noted above, it's simply too risky from a small, independent company's viewpoint. Besides, we're talking about LucasArts, a company headed by the same guy that brought Jar-Jar Binks into the Star Wars universe. Do you really want DROD under that guy's microscope? I know I don't.

Oneiromancer said:

Another option could be a few different victory songs/effects, which would depend on how quickly you beat the room, or how many monsters were killed, for example. Like if you beat it quickly the music is full of energy, but if the room takes a long time then the music is notably tired. Again, I'm not sure how hard this would be, but it is a thought.

This is entirely up to Erik. My thoughts on this: DROD is a 'zoner' game, something you get caught up in and play for hours. I think it would be distracting to have a little theme play every time you beat a room. But if Erik wants it, I'll put some samples together.

____________________________
Emmett Plant, Composer
Funkbunny Studios & Caravel Software

Oneiromancer
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Emmett wrote:
DROD is a 'zoner' game, something you get caught up in and play for hours.

Hmmm, I don't know about that. When the levels are easy, yes. But when it starts getting hard I find it's better to put it down for a bit to let my brain get a rest before coming back to it. Or at least switch to another hold to try out some other puzzles. That's just me, others I am sure feel differently.

So what are the plans for the music changing, if not dynamically? Will there be just an infinite loop of all the songs, or will the author be able to select them individually? Not considering whether or not there is victory music, of course.

Game on,

____________________________
"He who is certain he knows the ending of things when he is only beginning them is either extremely wise or extremely foolish; no matter which is true, he is certainly an unhappy man, for he has put a knife in the heart of wonder." -- Tad Williams

ErikH2000
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Oneiromancer wrote:
So what are the plans for the music changing, if not dynamically? Will there be just an infinite loop of all the songs, or will the author be able to select them individually? Not considering whether or not there is victory music, of course.

Quoting myself from SF task manager:
"Each style will have three moods: ambient, attack, puzzle. A mood will specify one or more filenames of songs to play. If multiple songs are specified then the songs selected to play will go in sequence. By default, mood will be "ambient" until the player enters an unconquered room. Some kind of analysis will be performed on entry to determine if mood should change to "attack" or "puzzle" mood. A rule like "if there are more than 50 monsters in the room, use attack mood, else use puzzle mood" can be used, but you want to account for things like maybe the room begins with 10 roach queens, and they will shortly turn the room into a slashfest."

There's three new styles (like the 9 styles in DROD now) and Emmett's slated to write 5 songs for each of the three styles. (2 attack, 2 puzzle, and 1 ambient). Plus, a title theme, win-the-level music, win-the-game music, and credits music.

-Erik

____________________________
The Godkiller - Chapter 1 available now on Steam. It's a DROD-like puzzle adventure game.
dev journals | twitch stream | youtube archive (NSFW)

Schik
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eytanz wrote:
Can you patent something like that?

Everybody else already threw in their two cents, but I'll go ahead and add mine anyways. If you read slashdot, you'll see pretty frequent articles on the latest stupid patents.

A quick search brings up:

- AT&T's patent for "the mediation of transactions by a communications system" - they sued eBay and PayPal. The patent also covers e-Voting, e-Auctions, e-Gifts, e-Donations, e-Wishlists and e-Referrals.

- A tiny Austin, TX company called Bluecurrent got a patent for "the Internet installation of any software or settings on new computers." And this was just granted in October 2003.

- Microsoft has a patent for "an instant messaging feature that notifies users when the person they are communicating with is typing a message."

*sigh*. So yeah, you can pretty much apply for a patent for whatever you want, and the patent office will say "Okay!" Or at least that's how it seems.


____________________________
The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way it treats its animals.
--Mahatma Gandhi

DiMono
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I should patent the use of the letter k.

...PATENT PENDING!

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ClaytonW
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I thin Eri might have a problem with that. (Whew! you can never be too kareful with patents.)