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trick
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icon Re: Global Climate Change (+2)  
It's not just the glaciers melting, either. The seasons are changing, weather is changing -- increase in amounts of rains and storms, shorter winters with less snow, less sunny summers, etc. These are effects we're experiencing right now, and it seems to be getting worse.

08-15-2007 at 04:16 PM
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DiMono
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trick wrote:
It's not just the glaciers melting, either. The seasons are changing, weather is changing -- increase in amounts of rains and storms, shorter winters with less snow, less sunny summers, etc. These are effects we're experiencing right now, and it seems to be getting worse.

People I know in Texas have been complaining about it being too cold recently. They had to remove two inches of ice from their cars to get to work after an ice storm. It's been snowing there significantly more frequently. In Toronto, it took an entire month longer than last year for the temperature to get above 22C, and it's only been above 30C a handful of days so far.

For some other facts and theories from more reputable sources than myself, here are some links:

The Heartland Institute: A Climate Change Primer
Part 1: It's the sun!
Part 2: Solar and Orbital variation
Part 3: Computer Models and the Need for More Research

Eco-Sanity: A Common-Sense Guide to Environmentalism, by Joseph Bast, Peter J. Hill, and Richard Rue (Madison Books, 1994, rev. paperback edition 1996) - complete text

CO2science.org

The CATO Institute - search for Global Warming

The New Zealand Climate Science Coalition

Also read up on the works of S. Fred Singer, Richard Lindzen, Sallie Balliunas, Patrick Michaels, Robert Balling, and the late Dixy Lee Ray.

Dr. Nir Shariv discredits global warming

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08-15-2007 at 04:51 PM
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DiMono
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Here are some more reputable sources:

"...the Earth was evidently coming out of a relatively cold period in the 1800s so that warming in the past century may be part of this natural recovery."
Dr. John R. Christy (leading climate and atmospheric science expert- U. of Alabama in Huntsville)

From here:

In the 1970s concerned environmentalists like Stephen Schneider of the National Center for Atmospheric Research in Boulder, Colorado feared a return to another ice age due to manmade atmospheric pollution blocking out the sun.

Since about 1940 the global climate did in fact appear to be cooling. Then a funny thing happened-- sometime in the late 1970s temperature declines slowed to a halt and ground-based recording stations during the 1980s and 1990s began reading small but steady increases in near-surface temperatures. Fears of "global cooling" then changed suddenly to "global warming,"-- the cited cause:

manmade atmospheric pollution causing a runaway greenhouse effect.

Understanding Common Climate Claims: Dr. Richard S. Lindzen; Draft paper to appear in the Proceedings of the 2005 Erice Meeting of the World Federation of Scientists on Global Emergencies.

Geological Constraints on Global Climate Variability: Dr. Lee C. Gerhard-- A variety of natural climate drivers constantly change our climate. A slide format presentation. 8.5 MB.

Thoughts of Global Warming: "The bottom line is that climatic change is a given. It is inescapable, it happens. There is no reason to be very concerned about it or spend bazillions of dollars to try and even things out.

NOAA Paleoclimatology: An educational trip through earths distant and recent past. Also contains useful information and illustrations relating to the causes of climate change.

Cracking the Ice Age: From the PBS website-- NOVA online presents a brief tour of the causes of global warming.

Little Ice Age (Solar Influence - Temperature): From the online magazine, "CO2 Science."

Solar Variability and Climate Change: by Willie Soon, January 10, 2000

Earth's Fidgeting Climate: NASA Science News "It may surprise many people that science cannot deliver an unqualified, unanimous answer about something as important as climate change"

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08-15-2007 at 05:15 PM
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DiMono
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And one more reputable source post:

A scientific Discussion of Climate Change, Sallie Baliunas, Ph.D., Harvard- Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics and Willie Soon, Ph.D., Harvard- Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics.

The Effects of Proposals for Greenhouse Gas Emission Reduction; Testimony of Dr. Patrick J. Michaels, Professor of Environmental Sciences, University of Virginia, before the Subcommittee on Energy and Environment of the Committee on Science, United States House of Representatives

Statement Concerning Global Warming-- Presented to the Senate Committee on Environmental and Public Works, June 10, 1997, by Dr. Richard S. Lindzen, Massachusetts Institute of Technology

Our Global Future: Climate Change, Remarks by Under Secretary for Global affairs, T. Wirth, 15 September 1997. Site maintained by The Globe - Climate Change Campaign

Testimony of John R. Christy to the Committee on Environmental and Public Works, Department of Atmospheric Science and Earth System Science Laboratory, University of Alabama in Huntsville, July 10, 1997.

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08-15-2007 at 05:23 PM
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Blondbeard
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Admittedly a lot of respectable sources. Still: I believe that most respectable sources would disagree with a lot of what is said in your sources. Otherwise the scenarios presented in the UN wouldn't make much sense. As far as I know there were lots, and lots of scientists involved in writing that report.

You might be right, but as long as it isn't uncontroversialy proven that human actions will not lead to serious global warming I prefer to care about the risk of global warming. I prefer if governments and citizens are concerned about the potential problem. I want to see some serious actions taken in order to stop the burning of fossil fuels. To stop de-forestation. Regrettably this is not the case in modern society.

As I see it you are trying to get people to ignore a potential risk, because that is what will happen if they buy your arguments. "Why you shouldn't care about global warming"... :no You should. As long as you are not absolutely sure that there is no risk I think you ought to care about the possability of global warming (were man is involved). Espescially since reducing our burning of fossil fueles is a very good thing anyway.
08-15-2007 at 06:41 PM
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DiMono
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Blondbeard wrote:
Admittedly a lot of respectable sources. Still: I believe that most respectable sources would disagree with a lot of what is said in your sources. Otherwise the scenarios presented in the UN wouldn't make much sense. As far as I know there were lots, and lots of scientists involved in writing that report.
There are three things you are not taking in to account:

1) Scientific journals and magazines get to cherry-pick which articles they want to publish. Not every article submitted makes it to print.
2) It is in the best interest of anyone studying a given thing to present results that support the need to continue studying it.
3) Scientists don't choose which articles to publish and publicise: bureaucrats do.

For all any of us know, there have been just as many articles that are critical of the global warming theory as there have been that support it, but because it's not beneficial to funding their research the articles are either not published, or are rewritten after they've left the hands of the researching scientists. Before you tell me that doesn't happen you should do some looking in to the 1995 Second Assessment Report by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, which was edited to reverse its conclusions after the scientists had gone home.

http://www.ipcc.ch/pub/sa(E).pdf - The report (select, copy and paste, the parser here doesn't like brackets)

A critical evaluation of the report from ClimateAudit.org

The problem isn't the scientists doing the research and presenting their findings, whatever they may be; it's the bureaucrats looking out for funding and only publishing articles that lead to more money. That's why dissenting scientists are so often discredited by the community, such as the ones I pointed out a few posts ago. By extension, only scientists who support the global warming theory would have been picked for that UN report, because the others would have introduced doubt.

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08-15-2007 at 07:21 PM
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eytanz
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DiMono wrote:
1) Scientific journals and magazines get to cherry-pick which articles they want to publish. Not every article submitted makes it to print.

3) Scientists don't choose which articles to publish and publicise: bureaucrats do.

No, they don't. At least all the professional ones are peer-reviewed. Which still stacks the deck against views which are highly unpopular, but it does reduce the chances of an overt editorial agenda. And in the professional journals, beurocrats really don't get much say at all.

The problem is with the mass-media scientific journals, such as Scientific American or Popular Science, or even worse with magazines such as Time which are not scientific journals at all but will publish science stuff if it political enough.

2) It is in the best interest of anyone studying a given thing to present results that support the need to continue studying it.

Depends on who's funding the research. Normally, any sort of results whatsoever - in either direction - would be beneficial to the researchers. It's just if they get null results that they are in trouble. Which means that people tend to try to present their results in as favorable a light as possible, but so will the people with dissenting results.

For all any of us know, there have been just as many articles that are critical of the global warming theory as there have been that support it

Sure, it's possible. But at this point you're becoming a conspiracy theorist (again, as long as we are talking about actual scientific publications, I have no doubt this happens in mass media and government report sort of things). Do you have any sources for this claim? Any respectable scientists complaining that they are being silenced? In this day and age, if your articles aren't accepted to journals you can always just post them online. Do you know of such articles? (these are serious questions, by the way - I'm really curious if you have any evidence of this).

I know from my own field (neurolinguistics) that there is a huge difference between what appears in our professional, peer-reviewed, journals and what appears in mass media, even in respected publications like Scientific American. People like John R. Christy don't seem to have trouble getting published in the professional climate journals, at least not according to his website and the list of publications there. What I'm curious about is what climate scientists are arguing about when they are not being edited for mass consumption or for political arguments. Do you know?

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08-15-2007 at 07:52 PM
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Blondbeard
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@ DiMono: Well... Yes that might obviously happen. But... there are strong economical intersts (not the least in America) that wants articles that points out that global warming caused by humans are nonsense. If I should guess which side of the argument that has the most corruption I would definitly guess it's "your" side ;) As has already been pointed out in this thread it is not unheard of that scientists get bribed. I know that there were strong, strong forces trying to lessen the threat presented in the UN report, namely USA, China and India.

Do you seriously say that you are quite sure that most/all of the people with expert knowledge in the subject doesn't believe in global warming caused by human activities?

[Last edited by Blondbeard at 08-15-2007 07:55 PM]
08-15-2007 at 07:54 PM
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DiMono
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Do you seriously say that you are quite sure that most/all of the people with expert knowledge in the subject doesn't believe in global warming caused by human activities?
I never said anything of the sort :P

Eytanz: other than the SAR report I don't have any other concrete examples of censored articles yet. I'm still doing research on it. I do know that the leaders of the nation's big environmental advocacy organizations have worked to discredit S. Fred Singer, Richard Lindzen, Sallie Balliunas, Patrick Michaels, Robert Balling, and the late Dixy Lee Ray for having dissenting opinions on global warming (Source - scroll down to bullet 12).

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08-15-2007 at 08:07 PM
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Blondbeard
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DiMono wrote:
Do you seriously say that you are quite sure that most/all of the people with expert knowledge in the subject doesn't believe in global warming caused by human activities?
I never said anything of the sort :P

In that case I think your argument falls a bit flat. If most experts actually believe in global warming caused by human activities I'd say that we take a pretty large risk if we stop caring about global warming, like you sugest.

[Last edited by Blondbeard at 08-15-2007 08:19 PM]
08-15-2007 at 08:17 PM
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Beef Row
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DiMono wrote:
1) Scientific journals and magazines get to cherry-pick which articles they want to publish. Not every article submitted makes it to print.
2) It is in the best interest of anyone studying a given thing to present results that support the need to continue studying it.
3) Scientists don't choose which articles to publish and publicise: bureaucrats do.

So lets get this straight. You have no trust for scientific journals, because their results might be cherry-picked in some manner which is either politically expedient, or grant money providing. But you're comfortable with material from the Heartland Institute which is a free-market conservative think-tank, and also produces reports in a similar vein arguing that the risks of smoking are exaggerated. Here are some of those.. Unexpectedly enough, they're also funded by Tobacco and Oil Companies. Suprising, isn't it?.

I notice you also use a great many sources which are over 10 years old, and so are based on a far more limited body of data than we have today.

Now my point here isn't to claim this automatically dismisses all the material you've gathered. My point is you seem to have rather lower standards for what constitutes a good source, if the source happens to agree with your preexisting view. Personally, I'm more inclined to suspect bias in a group with a clear political alignment, which is further funded by corporations with specific interest in the subject they choose to research, than in a scientific journal.

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08-15-2007 at 08:20 PM
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DiMono
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Beef Row wrote:
So lets get this straight. You have no trust for scientific journals ...
You're putting words in my mouth
But you're comfortable with material from the Heartland Institute which is a free-market conservative think-tank, and also produces reports in a similar vein arguing that the risks of smoking are exaggerated. Here are some of those..
I read the articles I linked to, thought about them, and agreed with enough of them to incorporate them in to my views. I treat each article I read on a case-by-case basis, not based on the source but on its content. Ad hominem still isn't cool. Attack the arguments, not the person (or group) making them.
Unexpectedly enough, they're also funded by Tobacco and Oil Companies. Suprising, isn't it?.
Good to know. I'll talk about this later in this post.
I notice you also use a great many sources which are over 10 years old, and so are based on a far more limited body of data than we have today.
Not all of them are that old. Some are recent. Some of my observations and opinions come from reviewing the data first-hand, like I did with the CO2/temperature graph. The NASA error happened days ago. Here are some others:

Patrick J. Michaels, Meltdown: The Predictable Distortion of Global Warming by Scientists, Politicians, and the Media, 2004.

Kendra Okonski (ed.), Adapt or Die: The Science, Politics and Economics of Climate Change, 2003.

Now my point here isn't to claim this automatically dismisses all the material you've gathered. My point is you seem to have rather lower standards for what constitutes a good source, if the source happens to agree with your preexisting view. Personally, I'm more inclined to suspect bias in a group with a clear political alignment, which is further funded by corporations with specific interest in the subject they choose to research, than in a scientific journal.
I was unaware of the Heartland Institute's funding sources at the time I read those articles. I will re-read them critically again with that in mind in the near future, and adjust my views based on my observations and conclusions after doing that.

Now here's an interesting question: how many people engaged in this thread besides me are thinking critically about the arguments and sources the other side is providing, instead of dismissing them out of hand because "global warming is so obvious it can't be doubted"? I read and re-read articles based on new information, and I believe it's fair to expect those debating with or against me to do the same. I also note, however, that with very few exceptions I am the only person actually posting links to sources.

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08-15-2007 at 09:04 PM
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I certanly admit that it might very well be as you say, although I don't believe it. Global warming seems quite obvious though. Why would glaciers and arctic ice be melting so rapidly otherwise? And you have never answered this question.

As far as I can tell you seem to be the one who are dead sure that you are right. So sure that you are willing to risk the fate of a global disaster on it.

I willingly admit that I do not read a lot of scientific articles on the subject. Why? Because I find it quite pointless. I feel that if most experts believe in us humans effecting the climate they might very well be correct. I don't believe I have the knowledge necessary to really understand the articles anyway (and by understand I mean understand them better or equally good as an expert). And I certainly don't think I can reach a 100% (or 90%, for that matter) sureness about the subject no matter how much I read and study.

My viewpoint is clear: It is a good thing to stop using fossil fueles as a source of energy. We ought to do it for many reasons, and a really strong reason is that we might be affecting the climate of this planet in a harmfull manner. Might, and that might is enough! Even if there's just a 10% chance that our actions lead to harmful global warming I think we ought to take that risk seriously.

Out of interest: How many articles which suport the theory of human influenced global warming have you read, and what exactly is it in those articles which makes you sure that the conclusions drawn in them are false? Why didn't you post links to articles written by both sides? (as far as I can tell you didn't).

[Last edited by Blondbeard at 08-15-2007 09:46 PM]
08-15-2007 at 09:44 PM
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DiMono
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1) I have NEVER said I don't think the world is warming. I have ALWAYS said it has been happening for 18,000 years, and is beyond our control. If you refuse to respond to the arguments I'm actually making, I will no longer give you the dignity of responding to yours.

2) It looks to me like you would rather believe whatever the media tells you scientists believe, than do research and draw your own conclusions. All you've said all thread is what you "feel" is right based on what you've heard second-hand. Read articles and form your own opinions. Don't quit until you've tried. All I've ever asked, both in my own article and in this thread, is for people to read the source material and draw their own conclusions.

3) Yes we should stop burning fossil fuels, because pollution sucks. I have never said we shouldn't cut our pollution.

4) I wasn't asked for articles that support human influenced global warming. I was asked for articles that back up my argument, and that is what I provided.

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08-15-2007 at 10:08 PM
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eytanz
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DiMono wrote:
Now here's an interesting question: how many people engaged in this thread besides me are thinking critically about the arguments and sources the other side is providing, instead of dismissing them out of hand because "global warming is so obvious it can't be doubted"?

I certainly am. While I have serious problems with your reasoning, I also agree that a lot of what we read about global warming is overblown and ridiculous.

I read and re-read articles based on new information, and I believe it's fair to expect those debating with or against me to do the same.

Yes, for the people debating the facts of global warming. I am mostly concerned with your distorted views of scientific research and publication.

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08-15-2007 at 10:08 PM
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And I'm going to reiterate here that whether it's real or not does not matter.

The benefits of doing something about global warming, whether or not it exists, are bountiful.

The benefits of not doing something about global warming are..um. What, again? Could somebody please tell me what the gigantic benefits are to continuing the way we are, and not finding more environmentally friendly options?
08-15-2007 at 10:25 PM
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Blondbeard
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@ DiMono: If global warming is happening, and happening rapidly, what was then the major point of saying that NASA had done an error measuring the temperature? What was then the point of questioning the rest of the worlds reports of an increasing temperature?

Sure... I know you've said that global warming has been happening for the last 18 000 years, but right now it's happening at an alarming rate. If the temperature increase had happened this fast during the last 18 000 years earth would be a very, very hot place.

Anyway... I was mostly referring to what you said about people who claims that "global warming is so obvious it can't be doubted".

Now you say yourself that global warming IS so obvious that it can't be doubted. :P I understand that you might have meant that people say that "human influenced global warming is so obvious it can't be doubted". That was however not what you wrote.

Also I would like to point out that I have read courses in school telling me about the green house effect. Admittedly that was some time ago, but I see no reason to doubt that a lot of experts still believes that humans actually are influencing the global climate. And you yourself have said that I am right in this. What is your problem with me acknowledging the possibility that they might be right without checking out all the articles (or a truly meaningful number of articles) I can find on the subject? I think I made it quite clear why I don’t.

Lastly: All I do is to acknowledge a severe risk. A risk I don't think even you deny. And once again: Are you so sure that you are right that you are willing to risk the fate of a global disaster on it?

[Last edited by Blondbeard at 08-15-2007 10:54 PM]
08-15-2007 at 10:52 PM
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Banjooie wrote:
The benefits of not doing something about global warming are..um. What, again? Could somebody please tell me what the gigantic benefits are to continuing the way we are, and not finding more environmentally friendly options?

The benefits of not doing anything are that you don't have to do anything.
:/


Doing nothing can be the most effective thing to do in some situations. But not re global warming IMO.
08-16-2007 at 01:19 AM
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DiMono
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Watch me

Then watch the follow-ups he did to close in the holes in his argument. This guy is a physics professor.

Again, I'm not saying we shouln't act, I'm merely saying global warming isn't the reason to do it. Clean up the environment for the sake of cleaning up the environment, because clean air is easier to breathe and less harmful.

I've been pulled away from what I think is a strong argument that supports my position, so I'd like to return to it now and debate upon it. That argument is that, given the CO2/temperature history of the last 600,000 years as presented on this chart, CO2 is not the cause of temperature change, but is instead a symptom of some third factor that is causing both temperature change and increased levels of CO2. My arguments in favour of this position:

- 290,000 years ago CO2 goes up while temperature goes down
- 285,000-275,000 years ago CO2 goes down while temperature goes up
- 235,000-225,000 years ago CO2 stays stable while temperature goes down, then temperature stays stable while CO2 goes down
- 195,000 years ago CO2 goes up while temperature remains stable
- 175,000 years ago temperature goes up while CO2 goes down
- 160,000-145,000 years ago temperaure remains stable while CO2 fluctuates, ending in CO2 rising as temperature lowers
- 130,000-110,000 years ago CO2 remains basically constant while temperature drops dramatically
- 100,000 years ago CO2 rises while temperature drops
- 75,000 years ago CO2 goes up while temperature drops
- 70,000 years ago temperature goes up before CO2 goes up
- 40,000-35,000 years ago temperature dips and returns while CO2 remains constant
- 25,000 years ago temperature goes up as CO2 goes down
- 5,000 years ago temperature goes down as CO2 goes up
- over the last thousand years (starting well before industrialization) CO2 has spiked sharply, but the temperature hasn't gone up nearly as quickly

If global warming is caused by CO2 emissions, there would necessarily not be all those inconsistencies. I believe the inconsistencies demonstrate that some third force is influencing both CO2 levels and temperature, making the fluctuations in both of them effects, and neither one the cause of the other.

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08-16-2007 at 02:57 AM
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Blondbeard
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Or perhaps CO2 does have an effect on the temperature. It's just unlikely that CO2 is the only factor in this equation. In fact we know that it isn't, since there's more greenhouse gasses than CO2, and there might very well be other factors as well. Factors which are yet unknown. The thing is that there might very well be a correlation between CO2 levels and the temperature. Looking at that chart my guess would be that there are some kind of correlation, but with other factors involved as well. And due to the theory about the green house effect, which you seem to think is true (a positive green house effect making this planet livable), the CO2 level certanly effects the climat.

Acording to this article in wikipedia CO2 is responsible for 12% of the total green house effect, and the total greenhouse effect increases the temperature by 33°C, which means that CO2 is responsible for a temperature increase of around 4°C. During the industrial age CO2 levels have increased by 33%. This in itself could mean that the temperature (if the theories presented are correct) have increased by 1.3°C due to CO2. Of course there are other factors as well, such as the possability that the temperature increase caused by CO2 might lead to a chain reaction where the increase gets multiplied, such as by the release of more water vapour once the global temperature has begun to increase. And there might very well be other unknown factors as well. You are right, DiMono. We do not understand this issue. As far as I know we don't understand the dynamics behind ice ages, for example.


But! It doesn't matter. Of course we should do more research, but as long as we admit that CO2 is/might be one of the factors affecting the temperature we ought to do something about it. Now. Especially since polutions is a bad thing anyway.


I ask you again: Are you so sure that you are right that you are willing to risk the fate of a global disaster on it?

[Last edited by Blondbeard at 08-16-2007 07:22 AM]
08-16-2007 at 07:21 AM
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DiMono wrote:
Then watch the follow-ups he did to close in the holes in his argument.

Heh, I'm reading a book about The Origin of Species, and there was a contemporary of Darwin who wrote ten editions of his argument that species change. (Darwin's major innovation is not so much the theory of evolution, but the mechanic of natural selection.)

This guy is a physics professor.

There's a couple of posts here that are doing the same thing, so this is sort of a general note: watch the appeals to authority, people.

(The way I understand the global warming mechanic is that it's an exponential effect. Is this the case? If it's an exponential effect, that'd probably explain why such a 'small' increase in CO2 can have such a large effect over time.)

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08-16-2007 at 11:07 AM
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eytanz
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Mattcrampy wrote:
This guy is a physics professor.

There's a couple of posts here that are doing the same thing, so this is sort of a general note: watch the appeals to authority, people.

What's wrong with appeals to authority?



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08-16-2007 at 12:51 PM
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eytanz wrote:

What's wrong with appeals to authority?


It's substituting making a proper argument with basically saying 'he said it, so it must be good'. Quite apart from the fact that even the smartest people say or do what turns out to be something stupid, it's not exactly putting the argument at front and centre either, which is the important thing.

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08-16-2007 at 02:20 PM
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There's a difference between accepting authority without questioning it, and recognizing authority. In a debate like this one, which is based on specialized knowledge, it's not only useful but important to list the qualifications of your sources. If you quote (or show a video of) a person making claims about physics, it's useful to know what sort of physics education he has. The fact that he's a physics professor does not make him infallible by any means, but it means that until I see evidence otherwise, I'm more likely to accept his claims about physics than my own guesses as to what's right.

It's important to realize that there are two levels to the global warming issue. One is a factual/scientific level - what is going on. The other is the political/social/ethical level - what should be done about it. These are very different kind of questions, and call for very different kinds of debate. The first question is about discovery and proper interpretation of data - it is not a matter of subjective opinion. In such a debate, authority and credentials are highly important. The second debate, of what to do once the facts are established, is a matter of opinion, and in that debate authority has far less weight.

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08-16-2007 at 02:42 PM
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Matty Cramp: I don't know if it's exponential, but it's definitely cumulative. The more water vapor there is in the atmosphere, the greater the warming effect from trapped radiation from the sun, which leads to more water vapor forming. That means it's perfectly reasonable for temperature to rise more rapidly near the end of a warming trend than the beginning of one.

This is provable by graphing it using some math I don't remember clearly. It's been a long time since I had to do any pure math, so I'll do my best here and hope someone more in touch with mathematics now than I currently am can fill in the holes.

Suppose every x amount of greenhouse gas traps y amount of radiation, and every y amount of radiation releases x/1000 extra greenhouse gas to the atmosphere each year from various sources, including man-made sources. For ease of calculation, let's let y = 1 and x = 1, and every extra x of water vapor = an extra 0.01 degrees C. Let's suppose we're starting at -15 degrees C, just like the average temperature was 18,000 years ago. Each year the amount of greenhouse gas in the atmosphere is (1 + 1/1000)^n where n is the number of years gone by. Since x = 0.01 degrees, temperature change will be whatever the resulting value is - 1, multiplied by 0.01. So here are some results after certain years:

after 1 year: 1.001 = 0.00001 degree increase
after 10 years: 1.01 = 0.0001 degree increase
after 100 years: 1.105 = 0.001 degree increase
after 500 years: 1.648 = 0.0065 degree increase
after 1000 years: 2.717 = 0.0172 degree increase
after 2000 years: 7.382 = 0.0638 degree increase
after 3000 years: 20.055 = 0.1906 degree increase
after 5000 years: 148.043 = 1.4704 degree increase
after 7500 years: 1801.279 = 18.0128 degree increase
after 10000 years: 21916.681 = 219.1568 degree increase
after 18000 years: 65072070.823 = 650720.6908 degree increase

So the first 5000 years increase the temperature from -15C to -13.5C, but the next 5000 years increase the temperature to 204.2C. Anyone caught in the middle of that second 5000 years would certainly be aware that the planet is getting warmer, but because it's a natural and uncontrollable process there would be nothing they can do about it. That's the same boat we're in, and yes I'm that sure of it. Now suppose that after 7500 years we are able to decrease the amount of added greenhouse gasses by 50%, the amount I believe is targetted for 2015 or something, to x/2000. What happens then?

after 7500 years: 1801.279 = 18.0128 degree increase
after 8000 years: 2312.744 = 23.1274 degree increase
after 9000 years: 3812.593 = 38.1259 degree increase
after 10000 years: 6258.118 = 62.5812 degree increase
after 15000 years: 76520.584 = 765.2058 degree increase
after 18000 years: 342812.930 = 3428.1293 degree increase

Looks promising, right? almost 160 degrees cooler after 10,000 years is a huge change. There's just one problem: total greenhouse gasses isn't what we're talking about cutting by 50%! CO2 is the gas we're talking about, and even if wikipedia is right about CO2 accounting for 12% of the greenhouse effect, that means the difference between pre-reduction and post-reduction temperatures must be multiplied by 0.12. So that's roughly (219-62) * 0.12 for the total impact of our efforts, which means after 2500 years of 50% reduced CO2 output the total impact is about 18.84 degrees, meaning all we've done is slow the natural process by an average of 0.007536 degrees C/year.

So what about a more practical example then. Let's say the temperature went up last year by about 0.1C due to greenhouse gasses. It didn't, but it's what I've seen claimed in some places, so we'll use it because it's easy to work with. Since the effect of greenhouse gas is still cumulative, the same general formula can be applied with some slight variations: x=1 degree C instead of x = 0.01 degrees C. The current amount of greenhouse gas is still x = 1. The general formula is then (1 + i)^n. Since we know the temperature went up by 0.1C, we can calculate i as follows:

(1 + i)^1 = 1 (status quo) + 0.1 (variation)
    1 + i = 1.1
        i = 0.1


That means our specific formula for this equation is (1 + 0.1)^n, or 1.1^n without our influence, or 1.094^n with our influence lowering total CO2 production by 50%. So how does it stack up?

Years          No action          Action
1 year           1.1               1.094
10 years         2.593             2.456
20 years         6.727             6.030
30 years        17.449            14.809
40 years        45.259            36.366
50 years       117.391            89.303


Again, it looks helpful, right? There's just one problem: humans can't survive in an environment hotter than about 40C. That means by the time the effect is noticeable and relevant it's already too late, because we're all dead anyway. It'll just take 40 years instead of 37. You can take heart in this though: there has never in the history of the planet been a 100 year temperature increase of 1C or more. Going by the historical records, we'll be in another ice age long before the world is too hot to live in.

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08-16-2007 at 05:59 PM
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I've written part 2 on global climate change on my website, which basically sums up the two most persuasive arguments I've made in this thread. You can read it here if you like. As always, all I ask is that you read, think critically, come to your own conclusion, and share it with others so that they may do the same.

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08-21-2007 at 03:27 PM
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While interesting, my main concerns are:
Surely scientists whose area of expertise is involved with global warming would have spotted this already. As I've yet to hear such a scientist cast doubt on global warming, I find it difficult to believe.

Isn't Greenhouse gases including C02 supposed to be an exponential effect, thus it only becomes a concern after a ridiculously high level?

Sorry if my concerns have already been answered, I haven't followed this thread all that closely.
08-22-2007 at 08:23 AM
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As long as we're discussing climate change, I might as well mention an interesting fact about the rising sea levels. A slideshow I viewed on my computer about Bay Area climate change stated that if sea level were to rise only one meter, both San Francisco International Airport and Oakland International Airport would be submerged. While this doesn't directly contribute to the discussion about the effect people have on global warming, I thought you ought to know, that's all.

-Noah

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08-22-2007 at 09:18 AM
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Hikari wrote:
I wish California's weather would go home and leave Oregon alone. ;)

Heh, the same thing happened here in the Bay Area earlier this month. The day before I left for a camp, San Francisco's summer clouds decided to invade the East Bay, so it was rather chilly when I went to Emeryville (a small business town sandwiched between Oakland and Berkeley along the side of the bay) to see a movie with a friend. The same weather continued to after I had left.

-Noah

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08-22-2007 at 09:44 AM
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My opinion on global warming is very much like Schrödinger's cat. It's happened and doesn't exist, all in one.


08-22-2007 at 09:56 AM
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