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malkav11
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icon Incursion: Halls of the Goblin King (+1)  
http://www.incursion-roguelike.org

I figure there's got to be a few Roguelike fans around these boards, and I also figure that unless you hang out on the miscellaneous Roguelike group on Usenet, (or Quarter to Three), there's a pretty fair chance you haven't heard of this one. I certainly hadn't until very recently. Let me just say, it's still in the middle of development, but it's very playable even now and it is AWESOME.

It's based, as the topic description suggests, on OGL. Which means you can look forward to a character that's not just a race/class combo like many Roguelikes (though those are there, and both have profound impacts on your character's nature), but also feats and skills, the latter of which have a wide variety of uses. Almost all of the skills have two or three distinct functions, sometimes as many as eight or nine. Also, prestige classes, multiclassing on a level by level basis, clerical domains...all in right now.

Of course, they've been modified a bit both for balance and for the particular needs of the game. Races have probably seen the most change, followed shortly by skills - it's not so much that the skills vary widely from what they do in D&D, but the skill system has been significantly modified. You can't advance non-class skills at *all* (fortunately, races also give you "class" skills, and there's a feat that can be taken repeatedly that will make a given skill function as a class skill.), and there are some uses/benefits of skills that only function if they're a class skill. Likewise, you don't get as many points to spend on skills.

Anyway, there's been a bunch of other changes, but the important thing is the wide range of interactions possible. Racial special abilities, class special abilities, combat maneuvers, magic, skills, terrain types, monster templates, all taken into account. There are tunnels that are awkward to move through if you're of medium size, and impossible to pass through if large. There are ice rooms, which require balance checks to keep your footing in combat. Climb will (at advanced levels) allow you to climb across the ceiling, with the right gear. You can bluff neutral monsters into taking your side, or simply send them haring off across the dungeon. Creatures actually use equipment and will, if intelligent, pick up and use treasure as well. Any monster can be generated as a standard member of that type or pick up class levels or special templates which you may not be able to identify without the proper knowledge...at least until their special features become apparent. Like when the spellstitched skeletal foot soldier summons a flaming sphere.

I could go on at length. My main quibbles are the inventory system, which is a bit awkward at first (and I'd like to be able to look at items in my backpack, but oh well.), and the rest system. The latter is a deliberate design decision to force players to make more tactical decisions about even relatively renewable resources. I can sort of see where the guy's coming from, but it's something I've never liked very much and in its current form it also seems unbalanced in the direction of spontaneously killing you.
08-14-2007 at 01:08 AM
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Mattcrampy
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icon Re: Incursion: Halls of the Goblin King (0)  
But is the combat system the same? That is, to do any damage you've got to beat the other person's armour class? Because that is my favourite part of the D20 system, as it makes battles very clear-cut. I also like the below-zero countdown - I like how even if you reach zero the game's not quite over. (Critical hits, not so much. Your characters are pretty fragile as it is, so critical hits hurt pretty bad.)

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08-14-2007 at 01:33 AM
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Oneiromancer
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But...but...I don't wanna play ASCII games anymore! Seriously. I vaguely, kinda-sorta, enjoy Roguelikes, but I need more of an interface than that these days. Sometimes I have the "damn kids get off my lawn" moments when it comes to video games, but a nice clean mouse-driven UI isn't something that I want to give up any more.

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08-14-2007 at 04:43 AM
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Dex Stewart
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icon Re: Incursion: Halls of the Goblin King (0)  
As for me, I don't have anything against ASCII games(and love roguelikes), however, I don't want to memorize x+1 different commands like ADOM and Nethack taught me(this being the main reason why I never played them enough to get past dungeon level 5 in Nethack and exp. level 14 in ADOM).

Mind you I didn't download this yet, but I'm quite sure that's the way it is.
08-14-2007 at 06:34 AM
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Banjooie
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icon Re: Incursion: Halls of the Goblin King (+2)  
quote:
Oneiromancer wrote:
...nice clean mouse-driven UI isn't something that I want to give up any more.


You mean like how you play DROD with the mouse?
08-14-2007 at 08:37 AM
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malkav11
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The combat system is largely similar. Armor Class has been replaced with Defense Class, as armor now absorbs damage instead (something that makes more sense to me anyway), but doesn't necessarily provide total body protection (represented by a Coverage stat that...well, I forget how that works exactly, but it means that with lower values there's a greater chance they land the hit somewhere not armored.). There's no bleeding out, I'm afraid. It wouldn't be that useful anyway, as you don't recover hitpoints without magic or resting, and you're on your own. (Well, you can recruit allies and such, but they're allies of convenience, not party members per se, and thus unlikely to fix you.)

Critical hits are in, however there's at least one feat that softens their impact (Roll With It), and your characters, while still somewhat fragile, have something like 20 extra hitpoints over your starting level's hit die. So you're not going to be dying from a single 1d4 punch or anything like that.

You do need to memorize some commands, and not everything is as clearly explained as I'd like (it took me a bit to figure out how to sacrifice things to my god, for example, and I'm still not sure how to cock my rogue's crossbow.). But it's *mostly* just a handful of core commands that have reasonably intuitive keys. Well, intuitive for me, which may not be a reliable indicator as I've played quite a bit of Angband and variants. Not been very successful, but played. The crazy depth is, by and large, done through menus (combat options, skill use, activated items, all menus.) Though they're still navigated with the keyboard. Still, it's a lot less keyboard shortcut intensive than most Roguelikes I've played. WAY less than Nethack (given their #whatever commands), and I've never played ADOM, but from the sounds of it, less than that also.

There's a fairly comprehensive manual, it's just not always good at enumerating some of the fine detail.

[Last edited by malkav11 at 08-14-2007 09:56 AM]
08-14-2007 at 09:53 AM
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Oneiromancer
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quote:
Banjooie wrote:
quote:
Oneiromancer wrote:
...nice clean mouse-driven UI isn't something that I want to give up any more.


You mean like how you play DROD with the mouse?

I didn't necessarily mean that everything had to be controlled with a mouse--FPS games still mostly use WASD to move, right? I meant things like inventory management and looking around the screen. I remember old Ultima games where you could only look at a square adjacent to you because there was no cursor or mouse pointer to look at squares farther away. DROD definitely has a mouse-driven UI, it's just the gameplay that isn't directly mouse-driven. And I know Banjooie knows this, he just oversimplified to make a point. And he almost got away with it, too!

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08-14-2007 at 12:55 PM
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BeefontheBone
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icon Re: Incursion: Halls of the Goblin King (0)  
If Incursion takes off, which it probably will if he gets anywhere near the level of complication he's aiming for given the design doc, you'll probably see a Falcon's Eye-style UI before too long. Personally I find they slow things down, but there you are :)

The commands are pretty straightforward, and there aren't too many to memorise (far fewer than Ancient Domains of "Clean (F)ace"-ery or *band) - a dozen or so keyboard commands beyond movement, then you're prompted for everything else. Inventory management's a bit non-intuitive at first (especially since you can't use the numpad, making it take twice as long as it needs to) but I expect that'll get a good clean up. The only command problem I had was that I kept trying to press z to exit the inventory screen because it looks like ADOM's, and that there's a few times where you can't abort a choice by pressing ESC; for instance, pick the Exotic Weapon feat and you're stuck with having to pick one and unable to abort it, which is an arse.

It gives you a lot of flexibility in character design - the same race, class and even choice of god will play out rather differently with different character development choices. Definitely fun, and very promising.

Oh, and I think 'f' will load a bolt - it did with my orc t'other day anyhow.

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08-14-2007 at 07:57 PM
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malkav11
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icon Re: Incursion: Halls of the Goblin King (0)  
F presents me with a list of things I can throw, bolts not among them. I can only assume that a) I am not putting the bolts in a place it can load them from, b) the crossbow has to be cocked (and I don't know how to do that), or c) the game wants me to melee. Really badly.
08-15-2007 at 04:19 AM
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jdyer
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quote:
malkav11 wrote:
F presents me with a list of things I can throw, bolts not among them. I can only assume that a) I am not putting the bolts in a place it can load them from, b) the crossbow has to be cocked (and I don't know how to do that), or c) the game wants me to melee. Really badly.


I think it's likely (a). If you have arrows with a longbow you can't use them unless they're on your belt.
08-16-2007 at 02:36 PM
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BeefontheBone
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Probably (a). That, or you're not wielding the crossbow in the first place :P

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08-26-2007 at 01:58 PM
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malkav11
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Oh, I was definitely wielding the crossbow. Anyway, that character is long dead. Like my next two rogues, both halflings. Bah.
08-28-2007 at 07:31 AM
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b0rsuk
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I don't understand how emulating such a legacy system as D&D can be considered an advantage...

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08-30-2007 at 06:03 PM
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malkav11
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icon Re: Incursion: Halls of the Goblin King (+1)  
D&D 3.5e may be a sucky roleplaying game, but it's excellent for deep, tactical combat and dungeon delving. Precisely what's needed for a Roguelike. It's also allowed for a wide variety of neat interactions that don't need to be special-cased the way Nethack + derivatives do it, with a lot more depth of implementation across the board than most *bands. (TOME certainly has a larger scope than this release of Incursion, as does ADOM, but I'm not sure that they're actually deeper.)
09-02-2007 at 08:22 AM
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b0rsuk
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Crawl >> All
(Stone Soup version, that is)

Try it without installing: telnet crawl.akrasiac.org

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09-03-2007 at 10:56 AM
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jdyer
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icon Re: Incursion: Halls of the Goblin King (+1)  
Version 0.6.9A came out two weeks ago, and it is the first version I can wholeheartedly recommend. It's much faster and much more stable than previous versions, and the encounter generation has been revamped; the atmosphere is heightened threefold.
05-27-2008 at 02:57 PM
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BeefontheBone
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Ooooh!

*snags*

Incidentally, if anyone's after playing Crawl on the server Borsuk mentioned above, they'd prefer it if you used

SSH joshua@crawl.akrasiac.org (password joshua)

to save bandwidth apparently.

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05-27-2008 at 07:51 PM
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Someone Else
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Hmm...
I got this, and put it on my memory key (stick, drive whatever you want to call it), and it didn't change what it was displaying unless it went off the screen. Weird.
05-27-2008 at 09:27 PM
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jdyer
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Update: the Mac port of 0.6.9A is also now up.

Someone Else, I'll keep my eyes out to see if anyone else has had that issue.
05-29-2008 at 03:36 PM
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Zmann
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Does anyone know if the newer versions of this game support olde tyme roguelike controls (hjklyubn to move)? I tried it earlier and it did not, which made it quite inconvenient to play on my laptop, as I had to keep switchings numpad mode on and off.
05-29-2008 at 04:36 PM
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BeefontheBone
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quote:
Zmann wrote:
Does anyone know if the newer versions of this game support olde tyme roguelike controls (hjklyubn to move)? I tried it earlier and it did not, which made it quite inconvenient to play on my laptop, as I had to keep switchings numpad mode on and off.

No idea. I invested in a USB numpad for that purpose :)

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05-29-2008 at 08:37 PM
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Beef Row
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quote:
Zmann wrote:
Does anyone know if the newer versions of this game support olde tyme roguelike controls (hjklyubn to move)? I tried it earlier and it did not, which made it quite inconvenient to play on my laptop, as I had to keep switchings numpad mode on and off.


Yes it does, from the main menu hit e, then right arrow until you reach the input options and its the first choice on the list

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05-30-2008 at 01:19 AM
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jdyer
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New version 0.6.9H up at the site.

Deities are now much less fussy. For example:

* All gods' TOLERANCE_VAL increased by 3 (so you can get 3 more 'anger points' before the god is considered truly 'angry').

and also interestingly

* Characters can now hopefully gain favor levels from multiple gods as lay worshippers correctly.

So you can be a polytheist if you so desire.

Also, both Shatter and Id Moss are out (at least for the moment).
07-01-2008 at 03:05 PM
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BeefontheBone
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Indeedy. Id moss was remarkably irritating for many characters and lethal to others. yay.

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Beef Row wrote: Actually, it doesn't really matter because the soap is a lye.

07-02-2008 at 06:43 PM
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