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The_Red_Hawk
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File: Deep Hold The Breeding Grounds III.hold (37.9 KB)
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icon Deep Hold III - The Monster Collection Areas (0)  
Attached is the third version of Deep Hold. It includes the third level and a jump on level 1 if someone doesn't want to play through again...
I fixed several unsolvable rooms in level 1 this time, so you should download this.....
In the third level, the breeding grounds have been destroyed. The Monster Collection Areas are where most monsters are put after being bred. This will probably continue farther down as well.

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09-07-2003 at 03:26 AM
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zex20913
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icon Re: Deep Hold III - The Monster Collection Areas (0)  
Have you playtested all of these rooms? Some of them seem to be difficult to the point of impossible.

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09-07-2003 at 04:17 AM
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The_Red_Hawk
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icon Re: Deep Hold III - The Monster Collection Areas (0)  
heh heh heh.....
No, I haven't playtested them, but I'm pretty sure they work.....
Tell me which ones they are and I might make them a little easier.

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Snapping, turning, rising, swirling,
Screeching, flipping, gliding, sliding,
The red hawk's dance of death.

.....the king of the skies.....
09-07-2003 at 04:34 AM
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StuartK
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icon Re: Deep Hold III - The Monster Collection Areas (0)  
OK, my post below upon rereading seems a little errr... short. I'm not going to re-edit now, it's too late (well, early) Sorry if I've caused offense, but please take on the advice and ignore the attitude :)


The_Red_Hawk wrote:
Attached is the third version of Deep Hold.

Imagine, if you will, that Santa has a huge sackful of checkpoints, and all the children have been bad this year. He needs to get rid of them all, and the North Pole is already chock full of the damned things, because the illiterate elves misinterpreted a set of orders. Santa has to dump them somewhere, and he doesn't know where. He needs your help.

Checkpoints before something difficult. Checkpoints after something difficult (so we don't have to repeat it) Checkpoints throughout something repetitive (if it's repetitive, can it be fixed to be more fun somehow, or is it just there to waste time?)

Both 1N1W and 2N are utter abominations. Also, from what I can see, 2N still cannot be completed despite your changes, since there is no way to remove the red door and reach the only exit from the other side. Rooms which takes 5 minutes to create and an hour or two to complete have no right to exist. A tar maze with trapdoors, likewise, has no right to exist.

Are you testing your rooms, or just guessing whether they can be completed or not? The warning when you export your hold is there for a reason. You certainly seem prolific, and some of the rooms you're creating are good, but IMO you need to test more /before/ releasing the hold. You want people to like it, right? If it's too boring for you to test a room, it's too boring for us (well, me) to play it.

Please read Eriks notes for level designers in the DROD help file, I think there are a few points that are relevant to you.

[Edited by StuartK on 09-07-2003 at 03:50 AM]
09-07-2003 at 04:43 AM
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eytanz
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icon Re: Re: Deep Hold III - The Monster Collection Areas (0)  
The_Red_Hawk wrote:
heh heh heh.....
No, I haven't playtested them, but I'm pretty sure they work.....

That's a very bad attitude to take. If you release holds which are untested, pretty soon everyone will avoid them. For instance, I have no plans to play any of your holds until I hear that the problems mentioned in this and other threads are solved.

Also, could you please not start a new thread for each version of the hold? It's really annoying trying to follow the discussion when it's split up among three different threads.


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09-07-2003 at 06:32 AM
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zex20913
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icon Re: Deep Hold III - The Monster Collection Areas (0)  
I agree with Stuart and Eytanz. I was under the impression that these were fully completable. They are not. You MUST playtest before you post a hold. Otherwise, many people will be pissed at you.

As to your suggestion of which rooms are impossible:

Twice West. While it is now possible to kill all but three of the wraithwings, I don't want to try for those last three.

Once South. I have not gotten to this, due to an impossible room, but it looks like a tar covered maze with snakes and brains. No.

Once East: Need the mimic for two different things. Impossible.

You absolutely have to test these before you post them. Also, if I was an administrator, I would delete all four of these from the board, so nobody else would have to be lured in thinking that they were solvable.

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09-07-2003 at 06:46 AM
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Tscott
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icon Re: Deep Hold III - The Monster Collection Areas (0)  
The waiting is the hardest part -Tom Petty

Trust me, I know the feeling you get just after making some rooms in the editor- you're wanting everyone to try them out right away, but...

The fact that you have already made three different versions of this hold (don't get me started on the fact that you started a thread for each) and haven't playtested all the rooms tells me you need to learn to hold off on posting your holds until you personally are (almost) completely happy with it. Most people don't want to try a work in progress especially if some of the rooms may not be solveable.

And if by chance you still want to have people try it out in such a state, be sure to let them know that it hasn't be fully tested and you're looking for feedback. I think people would be much happier to help, if you feel you need it, if you give them some advanced warning.

Personally, the few holds I've released, I've solved and completed every room at least 5 or 6 times (usually it's 10, 20 or more) before posting, and have tried myself to "break it" or try to find unwanted trivial solutions, and then tweek the rooms accordingly. Then I play the hold again as a whole, making sure no rooms lead to dead ends that make the hold unsolveable. Even after I've done all that, I've found things that I've overlooked and wish I had caught before hand.

And, the thing is, I don't mind doing all this pre-testing with my holds, because I'm trying to make every room I make a room I enjoy solving. If you don't enjoy solving your own rooms (or can't solve them to begin with), you might want to scrap the hold and start fresh with these thoughts in mind. Remember just because a room can be created with the editor, doesn't mean that it should be made.

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09-07-2003 at 07:34 AM
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The_Red_Hawk
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File: Deep Hold The Breeding Grounds III Revised.hold (36.6 KB)
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icon Re: Deep Hold III - The Monster Collection Areas (0)  
I have tested 1W, 2W, 1N1W, 1N, 2N, and 1N1E so far. They are now all a little easier... I hope you will think they are playable. 2N doesn't have any more trapdoors, 1N has fewer goblins, 2W has more passages, 1N1W has no trapdoors, and 1N1E stayed the same. I added a mimic potion at the start of 1E, but I haven't solved it yet. Here it is...so far.....

____________________________
Slashing, whirling, diving, twirling,
Snapping, turning, rising, swirling,
Screeching, flipping, gliding, sliding,
The red hawk's dance of death.

.....the king of the skies.....
09-07-2003 at 04:49 PM
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ErikH2000
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icon Re: Re: Deep Hold III - The Monster Collection Areas (0)  
The_Red_Hawk wrote:
I have tested 1W, 2W, 1N1W, 1N, 2N, and 1N1E so far. They are now all a little easier... I hope you will think they are playable. 2N doesn't have any more trapdoors, 1N has fewer goblins, 2W has more passages, 1N1W has no trapdoors, and 1N1E stayed the same. I added a mimic potion at the start of 1E, but I haven't solved it yet. Here it is...so far.....
As long as you warn people about rooms that may not be solvable, (like you are doing here) I think you've met the basic etiquette requirements. People won't get mad at you about wasting their time playing rooms with no solution.

But still, I think you are missing something. You really ought to play *all* of your rooms to completion before releasing. That's the standard around here, and you won't get any respect unless you meet that. So it just seems like you are being too hasty. Spend the extra hour or two to ensure all rooms are solvable, then post the hold on the board.

Alternatively, you could just consider your untested room as incomplete, and block it off in your hold. The room is ready for other people to look at after you've made sure it is solvable and, just as importantly, you've made sure it is fun for you to play.

Don't be discouraged. I like your enthusiasm. I'm sure people are interested in what you will make for them to play.

-Erik

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09-07-2003 at 06:45 PM
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The_Red_Hawk
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icon Re: Deep Hold III - The Monster Collection Areas (0)  
1E and 2E are clearable in the lates version also, though you might want to wait for the next revision to play 2E. Also, I'm pretty sure 1E1S (the one with all the evil eyes) is playable too. I only had time to try it once, and I made a really bad mistake..........

____________________________
Slashing, whirling, diving, twirling,
Snapping, turning, rising, swirling,
Screeching, flipping, gliding, sliding,
The red hawk's dance of death.

.....the king of the skies.....
09-07-2003 at 10:02 PM
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StuartK
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icon Re: Re: Deep Hold III - The Monster Collection Areas (0)  
The_Red_Hawk wrote:
I have tested 1W, 2W, 1N1W, 1N, 2N, and 1N1E so far. They are now all a little easier... I hope you will think they are playable. 2N doesn't have any more trapdoors, 1N has fewer goblins, 2W has more passages, 1N1W has no trapdoors, and 1N1E stayed the same. I added a mimic potion at the start of 1E, but I haven't solved it yet. Here it is...so far.....

A new release (already? have all the rooms on all the levels been tested yet?) These comments apply to the version that was available previous to this, so may be out of date. I'm not going to play this hold again for now, so I'm not going to check.


OK, getting better, but there are still, obviously, broken rooms (and we haven't even seen levels 2 and 3 yet) If there's a level warp, it's certainly not accessible directly from the entrance of the first room. If it's 'hidden' then please tell people where it is, and make sure not too much work needs to be done to reach it.

Click here to view the secret text



At this point, though I have enjoyed your first level more (no clue what's on the second or third) there's no way I want to play through all those rooms again to get to the fixed ones, after upgrading (I can only go to the entrance room of levels I've reached, and without finishing level 1, that means back to the start of level 1 every time I upgrade - no fun) It's *imperative* that you test all your rooms to at least determine they can be completed, before you release your holds (especially now) People are not going to play through a level more than once unless the process is very rewarding. If they can't complete it, you're almost guaranteed to have lost a tester (and instead of quality feedback, you get the 'this is broken' kind of feedback, which is of no use to you since you *should* be able to tell this yourself) I'll still play levels 2 and 3 if they become available, but only after an assurance that they can all at least be finished.
09-07-2003 at 10:52 PM
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The_Red_Hawk
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icon Re: Deep Hold III - The Monster Collection Areas (0)  
By now (which will be in the next version), all rooms are clearable except for the exit room (2S), which I'm not sure about yet. The secret room is 2E1S and 1E1S is a lot easier....
The mimic is *very* necessary in room 1N1W - now. I might still change a couple of other rooms.

____________________________
Slashing, whirling, diving, twirling,
Snapping, turning, rising, swirling,
Screeching, flipping, gliding, sliding,
The red hawk's dance of death.

.....the king of the skies.....
09-08-2003 at 12:34 AM
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The_Red_Hawk
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icon Re: Deep Hold III - The Monster Collection Areas (0)  
and I was talking about level 2 when I said "test".

____________________________
Slashing, whirling, diving, twirling,
Snapping, turning, rising, swirling,
Screeching, flipping, gliding, sliding,
The red hawk's dance of death.

.....the king of the skies.....
09-08-2003 at 12:59 AM
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Sokko
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icon Re: Deep Hold III - The Monster Collection Areas (0)  
Red_Hawk, you might consider deleting the other four posts that you made because they're very confusing; it's best to keep all your versions in one topic. To delete the post, edit your message and check the "delete post" box. Since it's the first post in the topic, the whole thing will be erased.

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09-08-2003 at 01:32 AM
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