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Caravel Forum : Caravel Boards : The Site : Message Threading -- Cool, but a touch deep? (What about possibly threading replies off the first message, rather than the last?)
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AlefBet
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icon Message Threading -- Cool, but a touch deep? (+1)  
I've just switched from reading the forum site to following the boards by email, and I've noticed that the messages are conveniently threaded, which is nice -- the thing would be unmanageable for me if I couldn't keep conversations together. But, I've noticed that the threading ends up pretty deep and the threads are all linear -- i.e. no forks. The end result is that since the subject line for each reply is indented under what it's replying to, the whole subject ends up running off the end of the field and I end up with a blank subject column:
Click here to view the secret text
What would people think about possibly having messages thread under the first post in the conversation, rather than the most recent, so the threads would keep together but the conversation would thread wide rather than deep?

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I was charged with conspiracy to commit jay-walking, and accessory to changing lanes without signaling after the fact :blush.

++Adam H. Peterson

[Last edited by AlefBet at 11-23-2006 07:09 AM]
11-23-2006 at 07:08 AM
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icon Re: Message Threading -- Cool, but a touch deep? (0)  
I agree that it's pretty silly this way. It's only like this because my mail client doesn't properly use the In-Reply-To or References headers, and after I added this (for trick) he never complained that it worked like this. So.... who knows this: If I make it so that each email is in-reply-to only the first message, will that work well? What if you don't have the first message in your email? Will it still thread things together correctly, since multiple messages are in-reply-to the same message? And what about references? Is it really needed?



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11-24-2006 at 03:23 AM
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trick
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icon Re: Message Threading -- Cool, but a touch deep? (0)  
Schik wrote:
I agree that it's pretty silly this way. It's only like this because my mail client doesn't properly use the In-Reply-To or References headers, and after I added this (for trick) he never complained that it worked like this.
Er, right. I have noticed that this happens too, actually, but never got around to complaining .. The problem before you added this was that, while messages would occasionally thread right automagically (because they had similar subjects, probably), the threading would break (even without change of subject), messages would get threaded under unrelated threads, problems like that. In short, the e-mail program tried doing its best based on guesswork, which wasn't always a success.

Having the forum add thread info to the outgoing mail fixed that. Those points I mention in that thread you linked to was based on my (limited!) knowledge about the usual way of doing this kind of thing for regular e-mail. I think I looked up some e-mail spec or something to be sure. Anyway, doing things a bit differently for this forum shouldn't hurt, I think, specially if it solves this problem. Changing the threading to only refer to the first post should still sort messages under the relevant thread.
So.... who knows this: If I make it so that each email is in-reply-to only the first message, will that work well?
I think so, yes.
What if you don't have the first message in your email? Will it still thread things together correctly, since multiple messages are in-reply-to the same message?
No. At least, if I delete the first mail in a thread for regular email, if that message has multiple replies, each reply will form its own new thread. So, this would be a problem.
And what about references? Is it really needed?
I'm not really sure, but I don't think they're required if you've got the In-Reply-To header, at least. They might help if a message in the middle of a thread is missing, but again, I by no means know what I'm talking about here.

~ Gerry

[Last edited by trick at 11-25-2006 01:29 AM]
11-25-2006 at 01:27 AM
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AlefBet
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icon Re: Message Threading -- Cool, but a touch deep? (0)  
I'm wondering if perhaps marking each message as in reply to the first message of the thread, with an additional reference to the last message (or two?) in the thread, would make the threading wide, while still allowing it to stitch together if the OP message is missing. I'm just guessing too, though.

I'd rather have what we have than something that is quite a bit more fragile. I would be okay with the occasional thread breaking, but if it's a regular thing, what we've got is quite serviceable.

I guess I'm thinking about three usage scenarios:
- Those who have a large archive of the Forum in email posts, and pretty much keep everything they get.
- Those who regularly clear out their email archive (maybe only keeping the last month or the last week).
- Those who have just started getting the forum by email and thus don't have an archive.

If the two references, reply-to OP and refer-to LP, allow threading clients to thread reasonably well for these three usage scenarios, I think it's worth a try. The only usage scenario I can think of that this wouldn't be good for is those who frequently delete chunks out of the middle of the threads, but I don't know if what we have works for them anyway.

Again, though, I'm just guessing -- I don't know how these fields are actually used by threaded clients (besides reply-to). Any additional thoughts?

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I was charged with conspiracy to commit jay-walking, and accessory to changing lanes without signaling after the fact :blush.

++Adam H. Peterson
11-25-2006 at 03:19 AM
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Briareos
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icon Re: Message Threading -- Cool, but a touch deep? (0)  
trick wrote:
What if you don't have the first message in your email? Will it still thread things together correctly, since multiple messages are in-reply-to the same message?
No. At least, if I delete the first mail in a thread for regular email, if that message has multiple replies, each reply will form its own new thread. So, this would be a problem.
Well, Netscape 4.x and Thunderbird solve this problem by replacing the missing message with the first one referencing it, i.e. you'll get all other messages threaded under the first one, which makes sense for me...

What mail programs are you guys using?

np: Move D - Eastman (Kunststoff)

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11-25-2006 at 09:32 AM
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AlefBet
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icon Re: Message Threading -- Cool, but a touch deep? (0)  
Briareos wrote:
Well, Netscape 4.x and Thunderbird solve this problem by replacing the missing message with the first one referencing it, i.e. you'll get all other messages threaded under the first one, which makes sense for me...
Yeah, I just tried deleting the root message in one of my other threaded folders (BYU UUG) and it re-threaded it under the first reply. I don't know if that mailing list puts extra references in that makes the stitching up work better or not, but I've never actually seen this rethreading not work under Thunderbird, so it wouldn't surprise me if it works like this.
What mail programs are you guys using?
My screenshot shows that I'm using TB. I'm not sure about everyone else.

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I was charged with conspiracy to commit jay-walking, and accessory to changing lanes without signaling after the fact :blush.

++Adam H. Peterson
11-25-2006 at 09:53 AM
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AlefBet
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icon Re: Message Threading -- Cool, but a touch deep? (0)  
Sorry to bump this thread, but did we decide whether or not we wanted to do this? If it's low on the priority list, I understand that, but my wild guess (which I'm totally open to being refuted on) is that it wouldn't be hard to code. But I'm getting to where I have pages of messages in a single thread with an empty subject field because of the indentation.

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I was charged with conspiracy to commit jay-walking, and accessory to changing lanes without signaling after the fact :blush.

++Adam H. Peterson

[Last edited by AlefBet at 03-27-2007 01:03 AM]
03-27-2007 at 01:03 AM
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icon Re: Message Threading -- Cool, but a touch deep? (+1)  
I went ahead and changed this. I'll check out the headers on the email I get from this post to make sure the headers look right. Let me know how it works in a threaded email client.

Edit: Yeah, I think the header looks right.

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The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way it treats its animals.
--Mahatma Gandhi

[Last edited by Schik at 03-28-2007 06:31 PM]
03-28-2007 at 06:29 PM
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AlefBet
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icon Re: Message Threading -- Cool, but a touch deep? (0)  
Schik wrote:
I went ahead and changed this. I'll check out the headers on the email I get from this post to make sure the headers look right. Let me know how it works in a threaded email client.

Edit: Yeah, I think the header looks right.
I guess I should mention that I'm not seeing a difference and messages are threading the same way as they have in the past in my Thunderbird. Thank you for giving some time to the issue, though.

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I was charged with conspiracy to commit jay-walking, and accessory to changing lanes without signaling after the fact :blush.

++Adam H. Peterson
03-29-2007 at 11:42 PM
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icon Re: Message Threading -- Cool, but a touch deep? (0)  
AlefBet wrote:
I guess I should mention that I'm not seeing a difference and messages are threading the same way as they have in the past in my Thunderbird. Thank you for giving some time to the issue, though.
Are you not seeing a difference in the header? Or just in how Tbird handles the messages? If you see something wrong in the header, let me know and I can fix it, otherwise I don't know what to tell you.

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--Mahatma Gandhi
03-29-2007 at 11:52 PM
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AlefBet
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icon Re: Message Threading -- Cool, but a touch deep? (0)  
I don't know much about message headers, so I wouldn't be able to tell if they're right or not. Based on my staring at them for a little while, they seem to be right to me. Thunderbird still threads the messages deep, though. Oh, well. Thanks for trying.

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I was charged with conspiracy to commit jay-walking, and accessory to changing lanes without signaling after the fact :blush.

++Adam H. Peterson
03-30-2007 at 12:15 AM
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icon Re: Message Threading -- Cool, but a touch deep? (+1)  
AlefBet wrote:
I don't know much about message headers, so I wouldn't be able to tell if they're right or not. Based on my staring at them for a little while, they seem to be right to me. Thunderbird still threads the messages deep, though. Oh, well. Thanks for trying.
I hope you're not expecting the threading on your existing messages to change? O:- It'll only affect new messages, and is probably only really visible with new threads.

And even then, threading in Thunderbird (at least 1.5) is quite b0rken, especially when it comes to threading and only showing unread messages...

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03-30-2007 at 08:33 AM
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AlefBet
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icon Re: Message Threading -- Cool, but a touch deep? (0)  
Briareos wrote:
I hope you're not expecting the threading on your existing messages to change? O:-
No, that obviously wouldn't work.
It'll only affect new messages, and is probably only really visible with new threads.
The headers I looked at were for a new thread consisting of a top-level post and two replies. They were daisy-chained, when I was hoping for them to be shallow. But the header references I examined looket to me like they should have been shallow-threaded. Oh, well.
And even then, threading in Thunderbird (at least 1.5) is quite b0rken,
I guess it must be something like that. Threading seems to work well enough for Usenet groups and for my UUG mail archives, but it's clear to me that something it's doing here isn't quite kosher.
especially when it comes to threading and only showing unread messages...
That's not my situation.

So, Briareos, is threading working as expected in your mail client, then? If so, what client is it? I'm just curious.

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I was charged with conspiracy to commit jay-walking, and accessory to changing lanes without signaling after the fact :blush.

++Adam H. Peterson
03-30-2007 at 09:05 AM
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icon Re: Message Threading -- Cool, but a touch deep? (+1)  
AlefBet wrote:
That's not my situation.
Just for kicks and giggles, open a newsgroup with several unread posts in it, switch it to threaded view if it isn't already, choose "View > Messages > Unread" and watch threading go really haywire - not even the lines connecting the threads will be correct anymore, not to mention the sorting being rather random.

So, Briareos, is threading working as expected in your mail client, then? If so, what client is it? I'm just curious.
*cough*

That would be TB 1.5, but I've not set up any forums to be mailed to me... :lol

Anyway, for the threading to be "shallow", as you wrote, there would have to be a single References: or In-Reply-To: header that contains the message ID of the very first post of the thread, and nothing else.

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R.I.P. Robert Feldhoff (1962-2009) :(
03-30-2007 at 11:41 AM
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icon Re: Message Threading -- Cool, but a touch deep? (+3)  
Briareos wrote:
Anyway, for the threading to be "shallow", as you wrote, there would have to be a single References: or In-Reply-To: header that contains the message ID of the very first post of the thread, and nothing else.
If there's an In-Reply-To header, why in the world would it thread by the References: header that's also there? Meh. Whatever. I took out References for now, let's see if that makes it better.

But hey, since you seem to know more about this than the rest of us, what should happen if a person doesn't have the message that's in the In-Reply-To header?

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--Mahatma Gandhi
03-30-2007 at 03:39 PM
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icon Re: Message Threading -- Cool, but a touch deep? (+2)  
Schik wrote:
If there's an In-Reply-To header, why in the world would it thread by the References: header that's also there?
Because the In-Reply-To is list of ID(s) of the post(s) that's being replied to (which can be all over the place), while References is the IDs of all parent posts in the thread of the current message, which is build by just taking the parent's References header and appending the parent's ID.

The closest thing to In-Reply-To, forum wise, would probably be one of those forums that lets you mark several posts before replying so you can answer several ones in a single post.

So a MUA should really just use the last entry in the references header that it can find in the user's mailbox as the current post's parent for threading as the In-Reply-To can reference just about anything and it's dog.

Of course, the wording in RFC2822 using "parent" both for the messages being replied to as well as the posts further up in the threading hierarchy doesn't make understanding things any easier...

Here's an example:
Posts    IRT References
1        -  -  
+-2      1  1  
| +-3    2  1,2
| +-4    4  1,2
|
+-5      1  1
  +-6    5  1,5
    +-7  6  1,5,6

8        -  -
+-9      8  8

But hey, since you seem to know more about this than the rest of us, what should happen if a person doesn't have the message that's in the In-Reply-To header?
Like I wrote above, it should start at the end of the References header, work it's way back and use the first existing post. And if it's the root post of the thread that's missing it should promote the first existing post (according to sorting) to the root node.

At least that's the most sensible behaviour I know, and that's incidentally how Netscape 4.x handled things...

Anyway, looking at the spec (RFC 2822) again, you should probably use both In-Reply-To and References (well, not on the first post, obviously), but each containing only the message-id of the very first post in each thread. But even if the References was missing it should sort the posts into a single thread.

And, like I said, I've never used that feature of the board - it's not fine-grained enough, i.e. on a per-thread basis...

np: Alias & Tarsier - Nocturnal Eye (Plane That Draws A White Line)

____________________________
"I'm not anti-anything, I'm anti-everything, it fits better." - Sole
R.I.P. Robert Feldhoff (1962-2009) :(

[Last edited by Briareos at 03-30-2007 04:21 PM]
03-30-2007 at 04:10 PM
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AlefBet
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icon Re: Message Threading -- Cool, but a touch deep? (+1)  
Nice. It's threading shallow now, including new posts in old threads. Although, to double check that it's threading by reference IDs, I ought to wait until a duplicate thread topic comes up in one of the boards I'm getting by email. But in the meantime, I'm pleased.

Thanks, monkey (with the greatest respect).

____________________________
I was charged with conspiracy to commit jay-walking, and accessory to changing lanes without signaling after the fact :blush.

++Adam H. Peterson
03-30-2007 at 06:57 PM
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