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Caravel Forum : DROD Boards : Holds : The Underground Civilisation (An evil conspiracy.)
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7.6/10 (22 votes)
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Author Name:Rasmus Björling
Submitted By:Rheb
Hold Name:The Underground Civilisation
Theme:An evil conspiracy.
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Number of Levels:8
Number of Rooms:77
Number of Monsters:3039
Version:DROD: Journey to Rooted Hold
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Hold Karma:11 (+11 / -0)
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File: The Underground Civilisation.hold (425.5 KB)
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icon The Underground Civilisation  
My name is Rasmus, and this is my first hold. It has been tested by michthro, Rabscuttle, Blondbeard and larrymurk.
09-22-2006 at 05:30 PM
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Ezlo
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Hey, I helped too! I just couldn't get past the second room! :lol
09-22-2006 at 05:52 PM
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UrAvgAzn
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Finally its on the holds board. I love this hold. I can't wait to see more from you Rheb!

Keep posting,

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09-22-2006 at 08:16 PM
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Rheb
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quote:
UrAvgAzn wrote:
Finally its on the holds board. I love this hold. I can't wait to see more from you Rheb!

Keep posting,


I am glad that you like my hold. And I am actually working whith a new hold wich I think I am going to put out on architecture soon. :thumbsup

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09-23-2006 at 05:53 PM
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Jatopian
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That's some high rating. Is it really worth 9.4/10?

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09-23-2006 at 08:02 PM
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larrymurk
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quote:
Jatopian wrote:
That's some high rating. Is it really worth 9.4/10?


I'd say so. I'll probably be working through it for the next year or so while making liberal use of the H & S board :lol

[Last edited by larrymurk at 09-23-2006 08:10 PM]
09-23-2006 at 08:09 PM
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silver
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icon Re: The Underground Civilisation (0)  
Wow. Highest rated hold ever, with 4 or 5 votes of a perfect 10, when only 2 people have conquered it. Impressive.

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[Last edited by silver at 09-23-2006 08:27 PM]
09-23-2006 at 08:11 PM
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eytanz
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Well, it was publicly available for a while on Architecture so people probably had enough knowledge to grade it by.

That said, I started playing it for the first time yesterday, and I don't like "serious bottleneck at level entrace" style rooms, so I'm not a huge fan as of yet.

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09-23-2006 at 08:22 PM
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Blondbeard
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quote:
eytanz wrote:
Well, it was publicly available for a while on Architecture so people probably had enough knowledge to grade it by.

That said, I started playing it for the first time yesterday, and I don't like "serious bottleneck at level entrace" style rooms, so I'm not a huge fan as of yet.


I don't realize how it can be that hard.
Click here to view the secret text


I would say it's a bit sad if people get's stuck at the entrance of the second level, since there are many nice rooms in the hold. Feel free to ask for a hint ;)

[Last edited by Blondbeard at 09-23-2006 08:52 PM]
09-23-2006 at 08:40 PM
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Rheb
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Well, I'm surprised by the very high raiting too. There are many holds I think is better.

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09-23-2006 at 08:43 PM
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Jatopian
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icon Re: The Underground Civilisation (0)  
It's going down, but very slowly.
Offtopic: Am I the only one who wants to click the hold rating bar?

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09-24-2006 at 12:40 AM
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Ezlo
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icon Re: The Underground Civilisation (0)  
I've found myself doing that too. Nothing happens, even on the official holds rating bar!
09-24-2006 at 01:22 AM
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Pinnacle
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icon Re: The Underground Civilisation (+2)  
"Despite x clicks, clicking the bar will NOT make your hold a 10."


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[Last edited by Pinnacle at 09-24-2006 02:38 AM]
09-24-2006 at 02:37 AM
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jbluestein
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icon Re: The Underground Civilisation (0)  
quote:
Blondbeard wrote:
I don't realize how it can be that hard.
Click here to view the secret text


I would say it's a bit sad if people get's stuck at the entrance of the second level, since there are many nice rooms in the hold. Feel free to ask for a hint ;)


Can I have a hint?

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09-26-2006 at 06:54 PM
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Nosdrah Circtrebla
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icon Re: The Underground Civilisation (0)  
Pretty tough hold. I agree with Blondbeard just getting past the entrance at the second level is diffcult. There are some nice rooms beyond the entrance. A lot of players will give up here. Still a nice hold.

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09-26-2006 at 10:34 PM
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Blondbeard
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Huh? Did someone just give the hold a 4 for funraiting? That seems very low -_-. Maybe you could send me or Rheb a PM saying what you found so terrible about this hold.
Edit: And now something very drastically happened again. It seems as if someone changed his raiting to 2. That just seems unfair. (Or maybe two people lowered their raiting quite much simultainiously).

I get the nasty suspicion that I might have angred someone with this post, but I can't see what's offensive with it. In any case, if that is the case, please tell me.

[Last edited by Blondbeard at 09-27-2006 06:23 AM]
09-26-2006 at 10:47 PM
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Rheb
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I really agree with Blondbeard here.
I have spent more than four months building this hold and I don't think anyone should bee able to vote a hold before he or she has played through at least 50% of the hold.
I think it's really mean to give a hold a low rank just because you are stuck on the entrance or don't think the hold should have a good ranking for some reason.

Sorry for being a little ill-tempered but I feel really sad for the moment.

:weep

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09-27-2006 at 05:20 PM
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Tahnan
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Hey now. Browbeating or guilting people into good ratings isn't going to get you anywhere.

Now, I happen to be enjoying this hold (or I was before my laptop became a rather unwieldy paperweight), but if someone thought it was a 4, then, well, someone thought it was a 4. Why jump to the conclusion that the person played through less than 50% of it? (For that matter, why is that a problem? I wouldn't want someone to open the hold, look at the entrance, and rate it. But I've read less than 50% of the Thomas Covenant series by Stephen R. Donaldson, and I can assure you that I'd give it around a '3' on a scale of 1 to 10, without any guilt for not having read more of it.)

All the same, if someone did in fact dislike the hold, I wouldn't mind knowing why. Open and free exchange of ideas and all that. But tastes do vary, so.
09-27-2006 at 06:02 PM
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michthro
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Sorry Tahnan, but this hold really doesn't deserve a 4. And rating a hold is not the same as rating an author. It's not too much to ask for people to at least play a fair portion of the hold before rating. This case is also a little more complicated than you make it sound, considering that the hold was rated down even further in reaction to Blondbeard's post, which is either a heck of a coincidence, or something a little pathetic. Anyway, I agree about free exchange of ideas and that. If someone honestly feels the hold deserves a 4, I wouldn't mind knowing why either.

09-27-2006 at 06:29 PM
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Tahnan
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Hey, I don't think it deserves a 4, and you don't think it deserves a 4; but there's a reason ratings are chosen by the general public and not the Committee for Hold Ratings. (And, again, saying "the hold was rated down even further in reaction to Blondbeard's post" is ascribing a cause-and-effect relationship to two things that we don't know are related.)

I also want to stress that, while I'm curious as to why someone rated it low, I don't want to sound like I'm pressuring anyone to come forward and defend their ratings. As we've seen in the thread on the General board, people rate by whatever criteria they like.

And I'm just not sure I agree with the "play a fair portion of the hold" sentiment. Some of it, sure--like I said, get past the first room. But 50% is a lot; I'm not sure I had to play more than two rooms of Bad Evil Restaurant before I knew I didn't like it at all.
09-27-2006 at 06:44 PM
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Rheb
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icon Re: The Underground Civilisation (0)  
quote:
Tahnan wrote:
Hey now. Browbeating or guilting people into good ratings isn't going to get you anywhere.

Now, I happen to be enjoying this hold (or I was before my laptop became a rather unwieldy paperweight), but if someone thought it was a 4, then, well, someone thought it was a 4. Why jump to the conclusion that the person played through less than 50% of it? (For that matter, why is that a problem? I wouldn't want someone to open the hold, look at the entrance, and rate it. But I've read less than 50% of the Thomas Covenant series by Stephen R. Donaldson, and I can assure you that I'd give it around a '3' on a scale of 1 to 10, without any guilt for not having read more of it.)quote]

Sorry that was really not what I meant. If someone who has played through the hold gives it a four, then it is ok for me. But the rooms in The Tunnel is much better than the entrance in The Rebel Nest (for example), that’s why I would be glad if everyone who rates it have played through at least 50% of the hold.

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09-27-2006 at 06:56 PM
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eytanz
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I also don't think that this hold deserves a 4, but hypothetically, if I give up on a hold because I didn't enjoy it (and not because I didn't try), I think I am more than justified to give it a 4, even if I only played 3 rooms.

If an architect hides a bunch of good rooms beyond a series of bad rooms/bottlenecks (again, not exactly the case here, but I can see why someone will think that it is), he deserves a 4, or lower. I don't care if the second half of the hold contains the best puzzles in existence, if the first half of the hold is a barrier to reaching them, it's fair to rate the hold based on it.

The ranking is supposed to reflect people's subjective experiences. If a person's experience of a hold was short, than they should rate according to that. If it's an atypical experience, than the average score won't be affected much.

Again, I'm still playing this hold and haven't rated it yet, and I doubt I'll give it a 4 when I do. But if I had gotten stuck on the Rebel Nest entrance for much longer, there's a good chance I would have given up, and then I would have probably given the hold a lower rating than a 4.

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09-27-2006 at 07:05 PM
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Banjooie
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I am utterly mystified by this apparent decision that we should all be judging how fun a hold is by how fun other people feel the hold is.

I think this is a pretty awesome hold. I would understand if someone looked at it and went 'Wow I really don't like this hold, the first actual room is ridiculously difficult, and it's a slogfest to get anywhere' and then voted it a 4.

I'm going to say this again.

'I think it's worth a 9. I would understand if someone felt differently.'

Hold fun is subjective.

09-27-2006 at 07:20 PM
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eytanz
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quote:
Banjooie wrote:
I am utterly mystified by this apparent decision that we should all be judging how fun a hold is by how fun other people feel the hold is.



Well said. That expresses what I was trying to say much more succinctly than I actually said it.

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[Last edited by eytanz at 09-27-2006 07:26 PM]
09-27-2006 at 07:26 PM
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Tahnan
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Er, yes, that's what I was trying to get at as well.
09-27-2006 at 07:36 PM
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michthro
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I am utterly mystified by the fact that "Overall" has somehow become "Fun". Fun is part of it, yes, but I don't think it's fair for someone to rate a hold down because they get stuck. Getting stuck isn't fun, but it's not a reason to rate a hold down. Isn't that part of the reason why difficulty and overall are rated separately?

09-27-2006 at 07:41 PM
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eytanz
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I take overall to be quality, not fun. But for most holds, at least those not explicitly claiming another purpose, I take fun to be the #1 indicator of quality. This is a game, afterall.

And you're sort of missing the point, anyway. The point is that everyone should (and is) be free to interpret what "overall" means. Since this rating is assigned by multiple people, it'll end up reflecting general opinion about a hold, and the factors that are in consensus will become most prominent. This works on the assumption that everyone votes honestly. People who vote from totally irrelevant reasons (e.g. disliking a post by the author elsewhere in the forum) *are* a problem. But people who vote based on criteria other than mine or yours are not, as long as the criteria are based on the hold.


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[Last edited by eytanz at 09-27-2006 08:25 PM]
09-27-2006 at 08:23 PM
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Tim
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I think a 4 is perfectly normal for a rating for this hold, or any other. Look, it's perfectly normal (and it happens all the time with my holds) that people vote very low for it.

Does it means that it's unfair just because one person vote a 4? Or just because some other person says that it's worth a 9, then everyone has to give the same score? Remember, the score is an average. That means that even those 11/12/13 year olds here on this forum can vote as well, and for them a 4 is probably very justified. And sometimes, some people vote a hold much lower than they think it is as they think some other people rate it too high. If anyone who already voted thinks the current score is not correct, well, then change your score.

I haven't voted yet, although I have seen/played most of the rooms in Architecture. Sorry if I was too busy to answer, but I can't do everything at once. And it's a solid, hard, first hold, and it's not too bad.

A really good hold will make everyone (on average) give high scores. This is a very good hold, but I think it's not for everyone. And Rasmus, you don't have to aim a hold for everyone, as long as your audience likes it. And I think they like it.

-- Tim

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[Last edited by Tim at 09-27-2006 08:27 PM]
09-27-2006 at 08:26 PM
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Banjooie
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quote:
michthro wrote:
I am utterly mystified by the fact that "Overall" has somehow become "Fun".
Alright, then your homework tonight is to mentally replace my use of the word 'fun' with the use of the word 'overall' in a way that still makes it grammatically correct.

If someone doesn't like a hold because it is too hard, they have the right to vote it down. God help me.
09-27-2006 at 08:52 PM
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Blondbeard
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icon Re: The Underground Civilisation (-2)  
Please feel free to mod me down to zero if you really dislike what I say, but I think it's utterly unfair to give a raiting of 2 to a hold if you can see that it's a quality hold (a hold with unique conscepts where lots of time and devotion has been put into the hold). To quote myself from another post:

"I just realized that there is another important factor to voting for me, and that is the quality of the hold. If a hold obviously is a piece of devotion, hard work and imagination I would never give it a raiting below 7. There are some examples of this. Real quality holds I just don't think is funny. I don't want to hurt any architect by naming them, but I think I can saftely say that larrymurks Fun Park is one of these holds. That is because I absolutely love most of what Larry have produced.

With Fun Park I found the rooms very tedious, and didn't get any satisfaction from solving them. If someone forced me to complete the hold and then forced me to rate I would probably give it a fun raiting of 3 or 4.

The reason for me not to rate a hold like this is the quality of it. It happens to not suit my tastes, yet I can see that it's a very good hold. Thus, when this happens it seems as if the only fair thing I can do is not to vote."


ps. I think maybe this discussion should be moved. It has really quite little to do with The Underground Civilization. And by the way: If you didn't relize it I'm even more "extreme" than michthro here. I have several times chosen not to vote for holds I found really boring, because I could see the quality in them. See that they where "good" holds (although I'm not saying everyone should do like this. It's just what I think is fair).

Edit: Oh, and I scincerely find it likely that the persons voting four and two for this hold by the same logic would give e.g. Tar Ballroom, Perfection and Bavatos Dungeon the same raitings if they voted for those holds, but I don't think they do, since they "know" that these holds are good. I might be wrong. I might in fact be very wrong, and in that case I apologize.


[Last edited by Blondbeard at 09-27-2006 09:18 PM]
09-27-2006 at 09:07 PM
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