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File: Roaches Revenge.hold (3.2 MB)
Downloaded 2963 times.
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15 levels, 300 rooms, and a whole lot of monsters!

With this new verison, it should be possible!

MeckMeck GRE
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Interesting hold. I played some levels so far. Good rooms including a story and tons of scrolls to read. Quite nice rooms mostly... expect these :

Most of the maze rooms with secret walls. Not everybody likes them.

L3 : 1E // The black door is a little timeconsuming
L4 : 1S1W // What an abuse of secret walls
L4 : 1N // relative to the other rooms quite hard
L5 : 1N // Trapdoors/Tar ist just timeconsuming ! You have to do it everytime you pass.

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[Last edited by MeckMeck GRE at 05-06-2006 06:50 PM]

Banjooie
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L3 2N is /scary/ hard. SCARY hard.

Awesome hold to come out of absolutely nowhere, though.

Edit: I can't count

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[Last edited by Banjooie at 05-06-2006 07:23 PM]

eytanz
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Is level 3 1S1E possible? No one seems to have solved it yet and there are more roaches generated per spawn cycle than you can kill, and no way to get to the queens in time. It *could* be solvable, if there's a way to survive going around the roaches, but I can't figure it out.

Also, this hold suffers from a lack of checkpoints in rooms that really need them. Not a total lack, just some rooms miss them.

Overall I'm enjoying this hold so far but I'm a little worried about how well it was playtested.

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eytanz
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The stairways in the warp room that are supposed to lead to level 9 end the hold.

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Tim
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Many rooms in this hold are not possible. Mostly because it is assumed that black and red doors stay dropped when that door is conquered.

For example L4: 5E, L6: 2N1E

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[Last edited by Tim at 05-07-2006 12:36 AM]

eytanz
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So, was this hold playtested at all? It's bad enough when people playtest their own hold and don't show it to other people, but this seems a case where the hold author just didn't try to solve some of the rooms.

I'm glad there's a warp room - not only because it allowed me to cheesily jump ahead and get some trivial #1 scores , but because the rooms that I can get to seem overall pretty good. But it seems like this hold doesn't belong in the holds forum at its current stage.

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Tim
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It's a shame that this hold is impossible, as there are many good rooms in there.

For all new Architects here, I would suggest reading the FAQ for new Architects.

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eytanz
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Well, technically it's possible to conquer because of the warp room (and indeed, very easy to conquer because of the buggy stairs). But yeah, a real shame.

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Hikari
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It's a bit of a surprise to get stuck in a new hold, hit the forum to see if it's a known problem with the hold (red/black door issue ARGH), and see that the newest member of the forum is none other than the hold's architect. o_O

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Syntax
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eytanz wrote:
Is level 3 1S1E possible? No one seems to have solved it yet and there are more roaches generated per spawn cycle than you can kill, and no way to get to the queens in time. It *could* be solvable, if there's a way to survive going around the roaches, but I can't figure it out.

Damn... After spending 3 hours on this room with VodkaAndCoke, I think I'd have to say that it isn't possible. So much wasted time The closest we got is approx 5 moves away from the queen in the top left however, so might just give it 1 more go...

Just 1 more...

michthro
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Which room do you really mean? It can't be L3:1S1E. If you mean L3:1S2E, it can be done.

Syntax
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L3:1S2E indeed.

It can be done? Is this since the update (just noticed it).

/me goes and checks.

[EDIT]

Yes, the update makes things *a lot* easier
In case you hadn't played the previous version, the entire top row was roach queens...

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[Last edited by Syntax at 05-07-2006 05:54 PM]

michthro
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Ouch! Ok, I wasn't there before the update.

Syntax
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Banjooie wrote:
L3 2N is /scary/ hard. SCARY hard.

I wondered for a while whether it was actually possible. And I'd just like to confirm that indeed it is.

Definitely one of the harder rooms I've ever played.

[EDIT]

Sorry for the multiple posts... broadband is yoyo-ing.

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[Last edited by Syntax at 05-08-2006 12:11 AM]

Syntax
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Another impossible level:
Level 3 3N.

There seems to be missing 4 mimic potions.
Also, the left hand green/red doors are too far up - it's impossible to step off the last trapdoor.

tokyokid
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I have uploaded a new version! Finally! I have fixed all the problems you guys suggested and I found some myself! I fixed the stairs bug. Now the bonus level ending stairs go back to warp room! You should be able to play it start to finish, if not, I'll make a new version!

zex20913
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I think that these rooms are impossible (I could be wrong, but I see no way around it)

L7: 2N3W. Unless this is just a massive RQ manipulation, then I'm stumped. And they're tough to manipulate after about 3 spawn cycles, no matter where you are.

L8: 1S. There's no way back from the arrow brain. Also, not possible to drop all trapdoors.

Edit: L8: 1W. It's impossible to return.

Please playtest all your rooms.

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[Last edited by zex20913 at 06-19-2006 01:46 PM]

Syntax
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zex20913 wrote:
Please playtest all your rooms.

Agreed, but I understand tokyokid knows this now. This hold was released in a flurry of holds a while back and I'm just glad he's had the patience to return and update it (though I've yet to play it since). After all, several long term holds were not completable for a *long* time until Oneiromancer (?) fixed them recently and the complaints about those were a lot less agressive.

Looking at architecture, it seems tokyokid is now following the correct process which, to be fair, isn't obvious from just browsing the forums (holds section seeming to be where to post holds).

Anyways, this has been discussed elsewhere, but (and from playing through pitways and the land of sand recently) I believe tokyokid has some great architect skills. Hopefully his hold ratings will also reflect this once everyone sees him as the architect he is.

Quite a rambling post, but hey... I have utmost respect for those who change their ways to fit the "rules", and after all, he's providing almost countless varied levels designed to be *enjoyed*. And absolutely no dig at you, zex. Just thought I'd speak my thoughts...

zex20913
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Oh, I agree that there is some amazing architecture to come out of tokyokid's holds, enjoyable designs for the most part (though plot may need a spot of touching up), but I am currently playing through the recently uploaded version, and found these errors. I would prefer to wait for a newer version without hold-stopping bugs (though the warp room does make this hold doable, but not masterable) than to have 5 or 6 versions of generally improving solvability.

It's just frustrating to find an unsolvable room. Even if the rest of the hold is enjoyable.

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Oneiromancer
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Syntax wrote:
[After all, several long term holds were not completable for a *long* time until Oneiromancer (?) fixed them recently and the complaints about those were a lot less agressive.

Nah, Mike did most of the fixing, and possibly used some fixes given by wallu and/or Stefan. I just made an early vaguely official comment after people started complaining.

Game on,

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eytanz
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Syntax wrote:

zex20913 wrote:
Please playtest all your rooms.

Agreed, but I understand tokyokid knows this now. This hold was released in a flurry of holds a while back and I'm just glad he's had the patience to return and update it (though I've yet to play it since). After all, several long term holds were not completable for a *long* time until Oneiromancer (?) fixed them recently and the complaints about those were a lot less agressive.

I agree with your specific point (Tokyokid seems to have changed his habits so it's time to give him a break), but the situation was never quite the same as most of the other broken holds - for one, in almost all of them the author may have submitted one unsolvable hold, but when people complained they didn't ignore the complaints and release three more, which is what Tokyokid did initially. Second, most (but not all) of the original set of broken holds were broken due to stair association bugs and/or behavior changes in patches, not actual architect negligence.

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Syntax
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Agreed mostly... well the first half.
Most of the issues were, in fact, architectual though. If you've played "Roaches Revenge", you'll see what I mean.

But overall I agree. It's time to give tokyokid fair analysis of his holds, as he's heard, listened and actually adapted to "the forum ways of doing things".

eytanz
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By "original set of broken holds" I meant the historically original ones, not Tokyokid's original set. I realize that was confusing.

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[Last edited by eytanz at 06-19-2006 07:07 PM]

zex20913
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Additional room note: it is impossible to return from L11: 2S 1W.

Edit: L12 1E is impossible due to a tar baby spawning in an area separate from the mothers.

Edit 2: L12: 1N 1W is impossible to return from, and exiting to the right gives another impossible return.

Edit 3: L15: 2N 3E is impossible, as there is a rock golem that blocks the way, about midway through the room, with the guards. And another blocks goblins.

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[Last edited by zex20913 at 06-19-2006 09:19 PM]

tokyokid
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Thanks for pointing those mistakes out! I'll make a new version right now!

edit: NEW VERSION UPLOADED!
edit 2: NEW NEW VERSION

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[Last edited by tokyokid at 06-23-2006 12:04 AM]

tokyokid
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okay wallu, there is a new verison.

tokyokid
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Okay! New version once again!

michthro
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wallu wrote:
I don't know if L12:6N1W is possible or not. If room is possible, it isn't any way easy. And lack of checkpoints doesn't make room easier. I won't even try this room before someone else has conquered this room.

It is possible, but really, really tedious. I just did it in about 6500 moves, and it was no fun whatsoever. I'd recommend that the room be made a lot smaller. If the floor area is made smaller and the number of golems reduced, it may actually make a reasonable room - there is some puzzle element in how to go about packing the golems tightly. Just do the room as it is on a much smaller scale.
Oh, and add checkpoints.

Rabscuttle
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1329, although I think I made some lucky mistakes.

There is a trick that makes it a bit less tedious - a nice trick if it was intentional. (Although the lack of checkpoints does make me doubt architect testing )