Oneiromancer
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2936
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Meh. I just got the Wavebuster, and I was so annoyed that there wasn't a checkpoint at least on the trapdoor (so you could only use it once, even). I kept making stupid mistakes when going back to the outer ring, I think it took me 4 tries and that's pathetic...but it would have gone so much faster than doing the whole room over again if there had been checkpoints.

Don't forget that Samus doesn't die by just one hit...she has energy...and gets more Energy Tanks! Checkpoints could approximate ETs...how about that?

Game on,

____________________________
"He who is certain he knows the ending of things when he is only beginning them is either extremely wise or extremely foolish; no matter which is true, he is certainly an unhappy man, for he has put a knife in the heart of wonder." -- Tad Williams

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[Last edited by Oneiromancer at 11-23-2005 11:29 PM]

Doom
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 3226
Registered: 07-05-2004
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Great hold. The biggest flaw was the lack of checkpoints, as others have already pointed out. I conquered the hold first with 91% of the secrets and mastered it shortly after that. Just a few of the master rooms to go now...

Final hold stats:
Moves - 149864
Kills - 6393
Deaths - 326
Time - 9:08:14

Some notes:
The scripting in Phazon Mines: 2N6W was annoyingly unobvious. I really spent time trying to find out how to access that room...

IIRC, there was a typo at the artifact in sunchamber (the flaaghra room). It said "forth artifact" instead of fourth.

Rabscuttle
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2460
Registered: 09-10-2004
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geomatrx wrote:

I also updated the final room in the Impact Crater-Beta. Now you can exit the room (if the room is solvable anyway).

g

Afraid not - there are trapdoors under the tar/mud mothers behind the yellow door.

--

This hold is top notch. The rooms are of decent difficulty, scripting is well used and the gathering of "items" provided a nice change of pace from regular Drodding

My complaints would be
* lack of checkpoints, especially in the longer rooms (as mentioned before)
* a few of the secret rooms involved running back and forth along long corridors before being able to kill one monster. I'm not a fan of those sorts of rooms - they're too tedious for my tastes. That said, most of the secret rooms were good.
* This room was annoying to go back and forth through.

Also, in the Impact Crater, it's possible to solve the rooms and exit to the south, rather than solving and tar/mud clearing all in one pass. (There's one exception - where the starting tar is undestroyable) I'm not sure if that is intentional or not.

NekoIncardine
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 127
Registered: 08-23-2005
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Okay, I entered the Missile Launcher code, but the statue in Chozo Ruins Twice North does not seem to rect. Is there a particular task I need to fufill, like entering it at the gate or something?

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eytanz
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2708
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Are you sure you entered it right? Remember to always step back on the center square after stepping on a number square, and also remember where the numbers are (it took me a while before I remembered the system)

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NekoIncardine
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 127
Registered: 08-23-2005
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eytanz wrote:
Are you sure you entered it right? Remember to always step back on the center square after stepping on a number square, and also remember where the numbers are (it took me a while before I remembered the system)

Yes. The statue on Samus' ship disappeared, which indicates to me that it was entered correctly.

____________________________
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eytanz
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2708
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Try restarting the room and entering the code again. If it's the right code, then entering it should work - at least it always did for me, I didn't need to do anything special. But sometimes if I accidently misstepped in the middle of the code I had to restart the whole room.

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geomatrx
Level: Smiter

Rank Points: 339
Registered: 08-31-2004
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Doom wrote:
The scripting in Phazon Mines: 2N6W was annoyingly unobvious...

There is more to collecting secrets than just broke walls. I admit it was sneaky, by this was to encourage returning to completed rooms, as they might have changed, as in another room...

Rabscuttle wrote:

geomatrx wrote:
I also updated the final room in the Impact Crater-Beta. Now you can exit the room (if the room is solvable anyway).
g

Afraid not - there are trapdoors under the tar/mud mothers behind the yellow door.

Rats! Oh well, thats why its in the beta.

NekoIncardine wrote:
Okay, I entered the Missile Launcher code, but the statue in Chozo Ruins Twice North does not seem to rect. Is there a particular task I need to fufill, like entering it at the gate or something?

You need to enter the code each time a statue is present in the room, not just entering it in Samus's spacefcraft. In CR-2N, step on the green tile in the bottom left corner, enter the missile code, and the statue should then dissapear.

I'll make sure I add some extra checkpoints in my next MetDROiD hoold (maybe one-use checkpoints), and I have had a different idea about secrets, in that im going to directly link them to items and log scrolls. This will reflect the true amount of progress you have made in the game, and dispense the need for those, in most cases 'ordinary', secret rooms.

Thats for the feedback so far.
g

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[Last edited by geomatrx at 11-24-2005 09:32 AM]

eytanz
Level: Smitemaster

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You know, I hate to bring this sort of thing up, but I've noticed that there is a lot of art in the secret rooms that presumably comes from the game. Do you have permission from the copyright holder for using it? I couldn't find mention of such permission anywhere. If not, then this hold mght have to be removed, which would be a great shame...

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[Last edited by eytanz at 11-24-2005 05:48 PM]

geomatrx
Level: Smiter

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eytanz wrote:
You know, I hate to bring this sort of thing up, but I've noticed that there is a lot of art in the secret rooms that presumably comes from the game. Do you have permission from the copyright holder for using it? I couldn't find mention of such permission anywhere. If not, then this hold mght have to be removed, which would be a great shame...

Well, I found it on a website that had them zipped for public download. There was no disclaimer for what you could or couldn't use them for. Im not using them for financial gain, and if anyone has a problem, then the images can simply be removed, keeping the hold intact.

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NekoIncardine
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 127
Registered: 08-23-2005
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My suggestion on the copyright infringement issue, is to try and do more 'representation' art, as you did with Samus' ship. One more obvious case from my play of the hold so far: The Suncatcher artwork you found could be far more neatly represented in an accurate-to-DROD fashion using colored tiles. (That entire room could use SERIOUS reworking, IMO. Throw in some decent number of lesser enemies - Seeps would be appropriate - then have bombs or orbs that open up holes which lead to orbs which spawn more creatures and open up access to the next orbs you need to hit, repeat four times. A little closer to the actual fight, no? Unless that isn't the fight...)

Just my opinions/suggestions.

____________________________
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geomatrx
Level: Smiter

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NekoIncardine wrote:
...The Suncatcher artwork you found could be far more neatly represented in an accurate-to-DROD fashion using colored tiles...

Do you mean the actual Suncather/Flaagra picture room? If you do, this isn't the boss room, just a simple secret room (these really are not accurate (as Metroid Prime didn't have any 'bonus' rooms). The boss room for the 'suncatcher' was 4N2E. If you DID mean this room after all, I will try to do better next time

g

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NekoIncardine
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 127
Registered: 08-23-2005
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My error is noted.

But yeah, the artwork's usage is questionable from both a copyright standpoint, and a quality standpoint (it really clashes with the rooms it is in).

Now, if you actually INTERACTED with the art instead of it just being there, that'd be a little more interesting (and, since it's more obviously a derivative work, probably safer on a legal standpoint). Spiders, anyone?

____________________________
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MeckMeck GRE
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 594
Registered: 01-03-2005
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Hmm.. downloaded the hold yesterday and played till the wavebeam so far... my comments :

Positive :

+ The story is the best one of all holds
+ The item/artifact hunt makes fun
+ Nice looking rooms
+ Nice descriptions here and there
+ Many secrets & bonusses

Negative :

- Almost no checkpoints (if you make a Metdroid based hold, better only take the good sides of the game and not the bad ones)
- Some useless "delayer-rooms"
- Character-Monsters that always come back
- Long ways to walk (using restore kills your progress, only because the architect refused to place checkpoints)

I would have gave this hold a 9 or even 10 at first, but the metroid -authency stupidy (lack of checkpoints) and some annoying rooms took it down to a 7. Apart from those 2 things its a wonderful hold.

geomatrx
Level: Smiter

Rank Points: 339
Registered: 08-31-2004
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Wow!

I didn't realise so many people would be raise this issue about the lack of check points.

There were several reasons why i din't include them:
- Metroid couldn't save progress mid-room, so I tried to keep this trend in. There are some rooms later that are very long/difficult, so these do have some checkpoints.
- I think that the smitemasters amoung us who are disciplined in their efforts will be most rewarded. i have played countless games where I got so far, died and nearly smashed my computer in anger, but once its done, the releif and happiness is over
- Webfoot DROD didn't have checkpoints, and that was still a bl**dy good game. Some of those rooms were really mean too. If I couldn't do one or kept dying, that was my brains way of telling me to take a break. When I returned, I found the room easier, and was a very happy bunnie.
- This is an adventure hold, so the rooms are not necessarily supposed to be done as fast as possible, and thus some rooms may not be able to be done in an optimal amount of moves (that pleases the player).

However, due to the feedback you have all given me, of course I would like to make you happier next time. I will include more checkpoints in holds I make in future.

Thanks again to you all.

g

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Andy101
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 222
Registered: 07-22-2005
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In Chozo ruins 2N 2E the it appears to be impossible to enter the morph ball code The code does work in the spaceship and I am fairly certain that I am entering it in the correct way.

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eytanz
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2708
Registered: 02-05-2003
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Are you sure you're not confusing the Morph Ball and the Morph Ball Bomb? They are two different codes.

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Andy101
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 222
Registered: 07-22-2005
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eytanz wrote:
Are you sure you're not confusing the Morph Ball and the Morph Ball Bomb? They are two different codes.

____________________________
"True perfection has to be imperfect"

Chaco
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 3626
Registered: 10-06-2005
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I think there are two bugs in this hold that I've discovered so far. I have no idea how Doom bypassed them, and I'm not sure if I should post them here, but anyway...

1. In the room with the World artifact(Chozo Ruins 3N6E), the Plasma Beam code doesn't seem to work. I'm positive I entered it right, but there is no change.

2. In the Artifact Temple, I stepped on the Newborn tile at the appropriate turn, and the statue wouldn't budge.

Please check these areas and ensure it's just my fumbling/miscounting. I only need to return 6 more artifacts to open the lock...

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geomatrx
Level: Smiter

Rank Points: 339
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Im pretty sure these are'nt bugs,... but I'll quickly check them out and let you know.

EDIT:
Nope - they are working fine. Just some tips of what might be happening:

Plasma Beam: If you are making notes with the items initials (e.g. PB), just check that you aren't using an earlier items code by mistake (e.g. Power Bomb).
Also, ensure you check the entire room - maybe something did happen, but not something you expected...

Artifacts: When returning the artifacts, remember you need to be on the tile at that exact turn number, which means you must be beside it on the previous move number.

Both points: I made this hold with about jtrh 2.0.8. I am sure that with earlier versions, there seems to be bugs where the scripting for the code doors do not work (but you would have noticed this alot earlier in the hold)

Oh! And thanks Chaco - any bugs you, or other delvers happen to find, feel free to post them here - I would still like to fix anything you do happen to find

g

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[Last edited by geomatrx at 12-09-2005 10:58 PM]

Chaco
Level: Smitemaster
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Yeah, I did use the full item names, and I was indeed keeping track of the turn numbers.

What might be better would be if the artifacts used eight-digit codes. Similar to the item codes, but obviously harder to crack, and you can write them down. No tedious triple-digit counting!

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Oneiromancer
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2936
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Chaco wrote:
What might be better would be if the artifacts used eight-digit codes. Similar to the item codes, but obviously harder to crack, and you can write them down. No tedious triple-digit counting!

You're actually counting? Just hit Enter and you will see what turn number it is. Much easier. (At least, I presume that's the key you press on a Mac just like the other OS's.)

And for the Plasma Beam, you either keep doing it wrong or you wrote it down incorrectly. I've completed the entire hold so I know everything is correct, as the others have said.

Game on,

____________________________
"He who is certain he knows the ending of things when he is only beginning them is either extremely wise or extremely foolish; no matter which is true, he is certainly an unhappy man, for he has put a knife in the heart of wonder." -- Tad Williams

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[Last edited by Oneiromancer at 12-09-2005 11:14 PM]

Chaco
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 3626
Registered: 10-06-2005
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Uhm... That... was... erm...

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skell
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 3734
Registered: 12-28-2004
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Small secret - How to put artifacts without knowing turn numbers:



Beside, I love it. I have 75% now .

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[Last edited by skell at 01-29-2012 08:41 PM : Going to the keep]

Chaco
Level: Smitemaster
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Exactly, which is why the unforcable eight-digit codes would work better in my opinion.

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geomatrx
Level: Smiter

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Chaco wrote:
Exactly, which is why the unforcable eight-digit codes would work better in my opinion.

A few points here:

1. The four digit scripts I have were good enough (uless you are going to spend a rediculous amount of time guessing the 500+ combinations you can use for the codes, and losing time actually playing the game.

2. I introduce the 'land on turn' code for variety. This also wastes time you should be actually playing the hold.

3. There was ways to 'skip ahead' in the Metroid games any way (sequence breaking techniques) so i seem to have copied this part of the authenticity too

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Chaco
Level: Smitemaster
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*sighs*

But this way you can put the eight digit code in on any turn, not just on one turn.

I understand it'd be more work on your part, and I got through anyway, but consider the fact that I prefer the codes to the turns in future holds.

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geomatrx
Level: Smiter

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Chaco wrote:
...consider the fact that I prefer the codes to the turns in future holds.

Actually, I am going to attempt scrapping the codes completely. I have ideas to get access to other parts of holds without them, and ways to make Beethro more 'resourceful' as he progresses

There will also be an all new story with a DROD - not just a direct copy of another Metroid story.

g

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Chaco
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 3626
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Whoo. Anyway, looking forward to Echoes(yeah, I know because I finally defeated that darn tar/mud room)

I really did like that ending boss. A nice twist on tar/mud fighting.

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leefa
Level: Goblin
Rank Points: 23
Registered: 05-26-2005
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I just started playing this hold yesterday, an I think I may be missing something. I have gotton the charge beam, missle launcher, morph ball, morph ball bomb, and varia suit. I have been to chozo, tallon and magmoor levels. I don't know where to go next! You mentioned an "Added feature of a 'voluntary' hint/spoiler system, enabling the player find out where to go next if they get stuck", but I can't find it!

btw, I LOVE this hold!




____________________________
LR