Hedginka
Level: Roachling
Rank Points: 14
Registered: 07-24-2021
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I beat the original Architect’s edition of KDD around a decade ago and only in the past few days have I decided to purchase the updated version on Steam to relieve the delightful agony of my young teenage life. Now on one hand, the Steam version is unquestionably superior, partially because of the challenges, mostly because of the addition of the 30 turn timer. So now level 8 isn’t the dictionary definition of misery,

However, I am left somewhat disappointed by the visual aspects of it. Again, in some ways, it’s objectively better, the lighting is more interesting and level 4 no longer triggers immediate blindness. But through the first few levels, all the way up to around level 6, I preferred the colour schemes of the original. Most notably in level 2 and 3, which if memory serves were mostly brown and beige, the two least interesting colour schemes of all time.

I also generally preferred the soundtrack as well. I won’t act like it was masterful, but I found it more consistently interesting as I got slaughtered by overgrown insects endlessly. A couple of tracks which I haven’t heard in almost a decade still manage to stick in my brain. And surprisingly enough, they do so in a welcome manner, rather than a torturous one.

Am I alone in this opinion? Genuinely curious to see how people adjusted to the changes in the newer version. I understand why it is the way it is, there were some hinderances with getting them on Steam, so they had to be playable via DROD 4. I just feel some sacrifices had to be made as a result.

Xindaris
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1531
Registered: 06-13-2015
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I don't have the same initial experience with the series as you did; my first playthrough of KDD and JtRH was on the edition that GOG sells, which I think was based on the TCB engine? Whatever the case, it didn't have the original aesthetic or music, but I appreciated it all the same.

But, if you like the AE aesthetic and music, the good news is that there are some custom hold styles that contain those ("Voids" is one example), so you can still see them in the latest engine, at least in some custom holds. I do really enjoy using those stark, odd styles in architecture from time to time myself, and I agree that the music has a unique quality to it that isn't present in what came afterward.

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109th Skywatcher

Here are some links to Things!

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[Last edited by Xindaris at 07-24-2021 11:34 PM]

kolbesag
Level: Delver

Rank Points: 34
Registered: 02-02-2021
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I got into drod this year starting with AE before stopping at the 4th level and buying Gunthro which has sent me down the DROD rabbit hole all year.

It was really satisfying going back after Gunthro to KDD 2.0 which though had a very different style of puzzles was still fun. However it was the game in which certain frustrating rooms led me to discover and turn on Unlimited Undo's which got rid of the arbitrary challenge of restarting whole sections of rooms cause of one wrong move. Coming back to AE it's this lacking feature that makes it unplayable for me now where this oldschool (what I experience as asinine) difficulty play's just as big a role in the gameplay as the puzzles, with whole levels based on this mechanic such as the tar obscuring trapdoors floor.

I do think it is a shame though that 2.0 wasn't able to incorporate any of the music or aesthetic of AE into the game as it inadvertently ruins the progress that Journey to Rooted Hold made as a sequel. Because it shares visuals and music it feels very samey to KDD, it suddenly made alot more sense for me when I found out after I beat Rooted Hold that it was actually as sequel to AE and not KDD 2.0.

Playing with the endless undos and other new engine features is really what makes KDD playable in the modern day (for me at least), but it's biggest problem is that it makes the OG art and music locked behind an unplayable version of the game as well as losing the context to appreciate JtRH as a sequel.

Rabscuttle
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2460
Registered: 09-10-2004
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AE definitely has nostalgic value for me.

The most memorable thing about the styles was that level 25 had its own style and music, which added to the battle of wits feel of that level.

JTRH did a similar thing, even though it only had three styles initially, saving the diamond mosaic floor until its final level.

I don't remember minding KDD2.0 when it first came out.

But I do dislike the lighting changes that were added sometime after TCB - some rooms are too dark, and level 25 now has all these glaring lights that distract from the actual gameplay.

ThemsAllTook
Level: Master Delver

Rank Points: 207
Registered: 06-23-2014
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I never cared much for the visuals of Architect's Edition, but I do think the soundtrack is spectacular. At least a few of the best tracks are still around in the Mosaic Frost level style.

JamesBond007
Level: Delver

Rank Points: 43
Registered: 07-26-2014
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It is possible to play the original King Dugan's Dungeon from Architects' Edition with the original graphics and music and with 30 turn timer as well as with unlimited undo.

The graphical styles with their soundtrack are available here and the hold is available here.

You need to import the styles into the game, then the hold and you should have experience close to the original.

BTW, lighting effects can be disabled by turning off Alpha Blending in the settings.

Illusionist
Level: Master Delver

Rank Points: 165
Registered: 05-27-2020
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I will not lie. The original aesthetics of KDD was the reason that I didn't want to play DROD. So I am the other voice. I recently shown DROD to my girlfriend and her reaction was like "this looks like some amiga game, I don't want to play it".

What she didn't know was the she did, indeed play it. And she liked it. But that's another story for another thread. Aesthetics are not a strong point of DROD, as a matter of fact, once you like DROD, you like aesthetics in spite of them

I played KDD like 5 or 6 times last years, every session was like 3 days long max. I love KDD, but I think that the game got better with next updates, and I can't imagine this game without unlimited undos

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[Last edited by Illusionist at 07-25-2021 09:16 AM]

Rabscuttle
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2460
Registered: 09-10-2004
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Someone has uploaded the AE music to YouTube - not sure how legit it is.

https://www.youtube.com/user/DRODmusic770/videos

ErikH2000
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2794
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged

Rabscuttle wrote:
Someone has uploaded the AE music to YouTube - not sure how legit it is.

All the media from AE was put in the public domain. So this is cool.

I'm glad some people like the old AE style. It wasn't "retro" when I made the first DROD art with 256-color VGA constraints. I was just trying to make the pixels count like everybody else. I don't think I would want to create pixel art again, though I find new "retro" stuff charming.

The new music I've written for The Godkiller is close to the same style as AE and JtRH. I graduated from Sound Club to Logic and learned a bit of music theory along the way. And I can succeed at inputting with a MIDI keyboard, even if it needs cleanup.

So now it only takes me a few days to make a song instead of a few weeks, which was the main reason I stopped writing music for DROD after JtRH to let pros like Jon Sonnenberg take over. The GK stockpile of music grows with 33 songs in the "done pile".

-Erik

____________________________
The Godkiller - Chapter 1 available now on Steam. It's a DROD-like puzzle adventure game.
dev journals | twitch stream | youtube archive (NSFW)

stigant
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1182
Registered: 08-19-2004
IP: Logged

I always play KDD - I replayed it, probably for the 5th time, a couple of months ago because I wanted to finish TSS and I had forgotten the story line, so I'm playing everything again - in AE because I prefer the music. I miss undos and the 30 move timer, but I refuse to play KDD in anything but AE.

____________________________
Progress Quest Progress

Didouneto
Level: Delver

Rank Points: 79
Registered: 03-21-2004
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To be honest i like each of Webfoot Drod, Architect Edition and the 2.0 version of KDD Aesthetic and music.

Webfoot : Good old midi files by LKA with a full force 90's synthpop vibe (even if nowadays it fits the gameplay in an awkward way), good ol' 256 colors pixel art who still got some charm (look at dat cute face isn't he adorable https://i.imgur.com/RHA6IOw.png)

AE : Good music with a more ambient vibe, fitting the gameplay better than webfoot drod. Upgraded art(except for the gameplay which is still the same pixel art as webfoot drod if i remember correctly)

2.0 KDD : JtRH stuff, nice music, nice art, everything works pretty well i like that modernized version a lot even if it does not have the same nostalgia vibe than other versions.

I randomly play one of those versions from time to time (i still have a resgistered version of webfoot drod on a Windows 98PLUS virtual machine), i does not have a preference, i love how the franchise evolved over time :v

mauvebutterfly
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 720
Registered: 05-03-2015
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Might as well throw in my two cents.

The newer graphics are better.

I appreciate being able to use the old graphical styles for the sake of variety even in the newer engines.

I really appreciate that the new graphics are still simple enough that it's easy to read rooms at a glance. Otherwise, I'd probably prefer the old graphics, since I'll take function over form in most cases.

As for music, I actually don't have much of a preference. I will say that it's all good enough that I don't turn it off when I play. I know some people like to mute game music and play their own playlists while playing games, but I've never felt the need to do that in any games, and certainly not with DROD.

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106th Skywatcher

navithmastero
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 596
Registered: 01-03-2012
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Didn't say it in my post above but I really, *really* like nearly all of the DROD music, including AE.

Sidenote: why can't we have some of those Tendry's Tale tracks in TSS!?

____________________________
Member of the Snake Appreciation Society

One of your local HAs.

My stuff:

The Architest
Level: Master Delver

Rank Points: 254
Registered: 05-25-2008
IP: Logged

I like all kinds of electronic musics from tracker mods to synth-pop. AE was my first DROD experience and visually and graphically it holds a special place in my heart - really charming.

I like the direction 'modern' DROD went regarding those aspects and personally I can't understand some people who say that DROD is somehow ugly (as read in some critical comments) - some might defend the graphics by saying they are functional and don't have to be that pretty ('it's a puzzle game!'), but I am of opinion that DROD has not only really functional visual appearance but also a unique and imaginative one, too.

ErikH2000 wrote:
The new music I've written for The Godkiller is close to the same style as AE and JtRH. I graduated from Sound Club to Logic and learned a bit of music theory along the way. And I can succeed at inputting with a MIDI keyboard, even if it needs cleanup.
-Erik

Us Sound Club graduates do love them easily visualized DAWs, don't we? I'm more of a FL Studio guy myself, but I'm certain we can agree on one thing - piano roll is simply great. Modern DAWs are really something. If you just have a MIDI keyboard and a little patience, then you can work some wonders even with minimal theoretical or musical skill. Simply amazing. Anyways, sounds really cool, I tried to imitate your AE tracks when I was working with Sound Club many years ago.

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[Last edited by The Architest at 07-29-2021 04:07 PM]

ErikH2000
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2794
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged

The Architest wrote:
Us Sound Club graduates do love them easily visualized DAWs, don't we? I'm more of a FL Studio guy myself, but I'm certain we can agree on one thing - piano roll is simply great.

Yeah, the horizontal layout of Sound Club was such an intuitive thing. I'm guessing SC was one of the first software that did not assume MIDI input and also used piano roll. The tracker software back then was almost always vertical scrolling, and the pitch of a note didn't affect the layout. The pitch would just be text like "C2" you type into what amounts to a spreadsheet cell.

So if you were the rare composer like me that loved harmonies but sucked at playing notes on a keyboard, Sound Club was fantastic. And SC had a very likable set of built-in sample-based instruments, an export-to-wave mixdown, and super-friendly Estonian developers.

Modern DAWs are really something. If you just have a MIDI keyboard and a little patience, then you can work some wonders even with minimal theoretical or musical skill.

Definitely agree. I'm completely amazed by the algorithms that generate drum tracks. Even when I want to make my own, these algs actually teach me to do things I wouldn't normally do. Ironically, the drum tracks I make entirely by myself end up sounding more robotic than what the robots make.

Also, I've fallen in love with filter chaining. It can be quite a rabbit hole. But also it's a cheap way to add some variety to repeating phrases.

The only bad thing about Logic for me is the sheer size of its UI space and how hard it can be to figure out how to things with internet searches when you don't know the name of the feature. For example, it took me four separate rounds of searching (the first three times, I gave up) to learn how to make legatos.

I'm pretty good at figuring out software, but there's so many menus, panels, subpanels, tabs, dialogs. Doing something as simple as adding in a new instrument can be perplexing. I could climb back into the womb of GarageBand, but naw... I want the power.

-Erik

____________________________
The Godkiller - Chapter 1 available now on Steam. It's a DROD-like puzzle adventure game.
dev journals | twitch stream | youtube archive (NSFW)

Hedginka
Level: Roachling
Rank Points: 14
Registered: 07-24-2021
IP: Logged

Hmm, seems to be quite the variety of opinions we have here. I for one, don't know anything about coding or modding, but is it at all possible to mod the Steam version of KDD to be more akin to the original, but with the added content and improvements? I know one guy mentioned being able to play the original with the timer and undos, but there's also the challenges that I find add a lot of value.

kolbesag
Level: Delver

Rank Points: 34
Registered: 02-02-2021
IP: Logged

File: AETiles.png (93.3 KB)
Downloaded 51 times.
License: Public Domain

Hedginka wrote:
is it at all possible to mod the Steam version of KDD to be more akin to the original, but with the added content and improvements?

Following the links of JamesBond007's comment (Thanks by the way ) I was able to mod the steam versions of Gunthro to have both music and Graphics to be exactly like AE but running on the modern engine.

JamesBond007 wrote:
It is possible to play the original King Dugan's Dungeon from Architects' Edition with the original graphics and music and with 30 turn timer as well as with unlimited undo.

The graphical styles with their soundtrack are available here and the hold is available here.

You need to import the styles into the game, then the hold and you should have experience close to the original.

BTW, lighting effects can be disabled by turning off Alpha Blending in the settings.

When I was added the AE graphics though I had to make the titles transparent myself so I added them here.

Jordthro
Level: Master Delver

Rank Points: 100
Registered: 07-22-2012
IP: Logged

DROD:AE like "Baba Is You" will forever hold a special place in my heart. I usually get fairly discouraged when I play puzzle games because there is usually a wall I hit fairly early on where the puzzles themselves are way too difficult to solve and I have to either resort to looking up the solution or scrap the whole thing ending what was otherwise an enjoyable experience in miserable defeat.

The year was 2004. I was a sophomore at the Tulane School of Engineering studying to get a piece of paper that would allow me to become a military officer. I loved LEGO bricks and God had gifted me with the ability to do mathematics fairly easily, so the easiest way for me to get that piece of paper was mechanical engineering. It was in one of my CAD classes that I stumbled upon "Home of the Underdogs" which led me to DROD:AE and from the first level I was hooked. I didn't have too much trouble until the third level when I had to backswipe a few roaches to progress, but I managed to topple it and over the course of a few weeks I took down level after level without a walkthrough. I was especially happy that Erik's overall design philosophy during this time was not to litter the levels with really difficult rooms, but to allow some rooms to be easy and fun giving me some much needed breathing room.

I relished clearing a level and reading the introductory level text of the next level and I didn't mind the lack of unlimited undo at all. It was tough--but it was meant to be tough. This wasn't Sokoban. No, this was "Deadly Rooms of Death". Beethro died. Roaches died. Brained roach hoards died. There was a lot of splatter and a lot of guts and... well, a whole lot of fun.

No offense to Lars Kristian Aasbrenn who did the music for Webfoot DROD, but the last level's music was so awesome I had to rip it to MP3 and play it in the car sometimes. That last level was truly epic, and I remember thinking after completing every room that it's always possible I'd get into a room that was simply over my head in difficulty. My heart was pounding, but little by little I cleared the last level with the Neather mocking me every step of the way. Finally, when I got to the last room, I couldn't believe it... I was so happy to have won the game.

But, nothing could have prepared me for the ending.

Watching Beethro play through the old levels that I conquered using my own moves made me laugh so much. I found the warp room, but I didn't use it--because I was on a contract for King Dugan and every monster had to become a corpse and what kind of Smitemaster would I be if I left some monsters alive on the lower floors? When Beethro was talking to Halph, I was talking to Halph. And then as one final reward after the credits, I was able to get the whole hold in its editable form with a secret room off to the side that only reveals itself if you've beaten it.

Beating DROD:AE will forever be one of my favorite gaming experiences. It--and all of the DROD games--are absolute masterpieces. Thank you, Erik, for making some great games. Which reminds me--I need to buy a frame for the poster of the Eighth I bought. I know some people may be thinking the DROD franchise jumped the shark with the chemists and the vats and the massive baby at the tip of the Eighth--but you know what? This is the world of DROD. With Halph, Tendry, Beethro (1st Slayer), and a whole host of great and memorable characters.

God bless Caravel Games. And God bless Erik Hermansen and Mike Rimer and everyone else who had a hand in fleshing out this amazing world.

From one Smitemaster to you all: "Long live the Eighth!"

(P.S. The Webfoot DROD OST and the DROD:AE music are both really great, but if I had to choose one I'd have to go with Erik's music. Also, including a level editor in that free game along with the ability to play user-made holds made it even better. DROD:AE is one of the rare games I would rate a 10/10. Absolute masterpiece. The graphics still hold up and so does the amazing music. Also--it was no small feat to beat the 3 tar mother room in level 8 with limited checkpoints and no unlimited undo. Good, good memories. Back when the world "Deadly" really meant something in "D.R.O.D.".)

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105th Skywatcher

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[Last edited by Jordthro at 08-07-2021 10:58 PM]

NoahT
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1133
Registered: 06-17-2003
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As someone who likes all the aesthetics for different reasons, I appreciate that the 5.0 engine makes it possible to incorporate them all under one roof. When playing AE holds with AE styles, I have set it up to alternate between the music from both Webfoot DROD and AE, while still having the modern features that prevent the gameplay from being too frustrating.

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And in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.

My stuff:

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[Last edited by NoahT at 10-27-2021 04:13 AM]