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Caravel Forum : DROD RPG Boards : RPG Architecture : Funky Grapple (quirky gameplay-focused RPG with grappling hook)
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Xindaris
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icon Funky Grapple (+4)  
So, a few times now I've alluded to or mentioned a "bigger project" for RPG that's been in the works for a while. And this is it!

Funky Grapple (with a single level entitled "Grapple Adventure") is based on a few core ideas, namely:
-One level with four distinct sections ("Tiers") which are each internally fully explorable with no roadblocks, with one-way passages after the boss of each tier going up to the next;
-The player permanently has a grappling hook and the room puzzles and overall design is based heavily on that;
-In each tier the player may choose to pick up either a sword or a shield, but equipment does not affect the player's score.

There is a scorepoint at the end of each tier (which the player is forced to lose equipment prior to, but can reclaim the equipment afterward), as well as challenge scorepoints at the very end for picking up all of the swords or all of the shields, and one final scorepoint equal to the player's REP at the end of the hold to provide further variety (and a reason to care about REP/Greckles as there is no way to spend them in this hold).

Many widgets and prizes are specially designed to only be available to a player who either does or does not have a sword, and there are some clever tricks to abuse this, but it is possible to complete the entire thing without doing any of those tricks (which I collectively call "theft"). Each tier also has a very small number of keys and doors leading to big prize caches in the room with the boss; this is the only use of keys in the hold.

The level name and intro text are references to glitches in Ocarina of Time (namely Bottle Adventure, which turns your sword into a bottle, and a Ocarina Items, which lets a player use any item as an "ocarina").

The majority of this was built in a fairly contiguous run, with lots of testing in between. However, most of the 4th and final tier was completed within the past couple of days, so it's possible that I did a rather poorer job of balancing it than the rest of the hold.

Anyway, please give it a try and let me know what you think.

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[Last edited by Xindaris at 08-05-2020 01:40 AM]
06-24-2020 at 11:11 PM
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azb
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icon Re: Funky Grapple (+1)  
The hold so far is really awesome! However, there are two things I would suggest for convenience from the player's perspective:

A) The Floating Eyeballs currently look like actual Evil Eyes; I would suggest like all the other custom monsters you added to give them a custom colorization in order to make it obvious they are much worse than a regular evil eye.

B) It is not obvious that the hot tiles do 100 damage flat, so the player will most likely be taken for surprise the first time they encounter one in Tier 3.

In addition, I feel that the transition in terms of difficulty is a little off, as Tiers 3 and 4 have much tougher monsters than Tier 2 did compared to Tier 1. I would suggest using a few of the tougher monsters from Tier 2 in Tier 3, and a few of the tougher monsters from Tier 3 in Tier 4. :)

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06-25-2020 at 01:50 PM
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Xindaris
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icon Re: Funky Grapple (+2)  
A) Good idea, will do; I guess I thought the fact that they can exist over pits/water would make it obvious enough they weren't regular eyes. EDIT: It appears that I tried to give them a darker color but it didn't work??? Mycolor = 505050 (which is what they had) looks no different from 999999 to me. But lower values will make a difference.
B) The informatic scrolls in the Entrance clearly state that hot tiles do 100 damage. I think it's quite reasonable to expect the player to read and remember that information.

Prize value doubles each tier, so 3/4 having tougher monsters to balance that makes perfect sense. Adding stronger monsters to the earlier tiers would make it more difficult or impossible to pull off some intended tricks, I suspect.
EDIT: That sentence was based on a misreading of your post. To correct that: I found that under fairly reasonable conditions, most of the "toughest" monsters from the current tier tend to be completely trivial by the time I'm done collecting things from it, so putting them in the next tier would be like making whatever's behind them almost free. The intended balance is that almost nothing in a new tier should be entirely free, even to a player using all possible tricks to maximize their stats at its start. But either way, I'll await more feedback before completely restructuring the monster placement, I think.


EDIT/UPDATE:
Aesthetic change only: The Flyin' Eyeballs are distinctly blue now so they're very obviously custom monsters.

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[Last edited by Xindaris at 06-25-2020 04:17 PM]
06-25-2020 at 04:07 PM
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azb
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icon Re: Funky Grapple (+1)  
I think the Evil Eye character template has very subtle/less noticeable changes when you go lighter compared to the other ones, because of the fact the template is (mostly) already a blend of the RGB colors (mostly white with a few blue). Thank you for the change, however! :)

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06-25-2020 at 04:45 PM
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Meta
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icon Re: Funky Grapple (+1)  
Nice hold! I have tried both the swords route and the shields route. It seems that there are significantly more resources in the swords route, which makes it far easier than the shields route. Below are my scores.

All Swords Scorepoint
---------------------
HP: 12818
ATK: 377
DEF: 271
Keys: 0/0/0/0
Score = 3018

All Shields Scorepoint
----------------------
HP: 2797
ATK: 323
DEF: 192
Keys: 0/1/0/0
Score = 2280

Some comments
-------------
4N1W: The DEF gem can be picked up without fighting any monster.
6N, 10N: It is possible to fight the Grappler 2,3 and then do some other things, such as picking up wooden shield and taking it to next tier.
12N: The gems can be accessed diagonally.
14N1E: Only 4 mirrors are needed.
15N1W: All gems can be obtained.
15N: I do not see the use of the yellow door and green door below the bombs.

06-25-2020 at 07:07 PM
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Xindaris
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icon Re: Funky Grapple (+1)  
Thanks for taking a look, Meta! I'm not very surprised that the sword is easier than the shield, but I think there are still a few challenges if you choose that route. The biggest problem with trying to add resources for the shield route is the risk that any of them could potentially be "stolen" by a sword player too. Also, seems you've found a couple of leaks and other errors. More specifically:

Click here to view the secret text


That in mind--
UPDATE: Various corrections in response to the issues Meta pointed out.

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[Last edited by Xindaris at 06-25-2020 07:38 PM]
06-25-2020 at 07:32 PM
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azb
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icon Re: Funky Grapple (+1)  
Out of curiosity, did you use a custom Really Big Sword with a Hook ATK value to keep up with the Legend of Zelda theme? It's not an issue or anything for me, though, since like with the hot tiles I can see there is a scroll clearly explaining what it does.

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06-25-2020 at 08:24 PM
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kieranmillar
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icon Re: Funky Grapple (+2)  
Xindaris wrote: EDIT: It appears that I tried to give them a darker color but it didn't work??? Mycolor = 505050 (which is what they had) looks no different from 999999 to me. But lower values will make a difference.
To explain this, here's what the help file says about _MyColor:
_MyColor - a six-digit number, where each two-digit pair defines the amount of R/G/B color offset to the NPC's image. A value of 50 is normal. Lower values (0-49) remove a proportionate amount of that color. Greater values (51-99) enhance that color.
So 505050 means no change. Numbers below 50 will make it darker, and numbers above 50 will make it lighter. As the eyes are already mostly white, making it lighter has little noticeable effect.
06-25-2020 at 08:55 PM
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Xindaris
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icon Re: Funky Grapple (+1)  
I'm pretty sure I was (for some reason) under the impression that the hook had some special gameplay behavior that "normal" swords wouldn't. Well, since I've already made the custom sword I may as well leave it in.

I guess I thought 999999 was "normal color" and everything else was darker, but that makes a bit more sense, thanks.

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[Last edited by Xindaris at 06-25-2020 10:03 PM]
06-25-2020 at 10:03 PM
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Xindaris
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icon Re: Funky Grapple (+1)  
As it's been about a month, this post is just to ask whether anyone else is currently testing this hold, and for any opinions you might have about concept, structure, balancing, scorepoint design, etc. Honestly, the last tier or so of this hold hits my upper limits as a player in terms of assessing whether something is reasonably balanced, too hard, or way too easy, so I would appreciate further feedback from anyone who's actually good at playing RPG if possible.

One kind of challenge I've just now thought of, which I wonder about the viability of, is something like "only pick up equipment twice" or "three times" or even "once". Wouldn't be hard to script up a scorepoint for that sort of thing, but I wonder how much of that is even possible.

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[Last edited by Xindaris at 07-27-2020 08:58 PM]
07-27-2020 at 08:55 PM
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kieranmillar
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icon Re: Funky Grapple (+1)  
I'll try and do my usual first-impressions video. I might take a few days to get around to it as it's nearly the end of the Deadlies and I'll have a put of stuff to do around that, but I'll try and get one done within the upcoming week as I way to give some feedback.
07-27-2020 at 09:00 PM
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Xindaris
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icon Re: Funky Grapple (0)  
Cool. There's no big rush; I greatly appreciate your work with the deadlies. Just knowing someone plans to have a look is good enough for me :thumbsup

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07-28-2020 at 12:55 AM
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greenscience
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icon Re: Funky Grapple (+1)  
I took a look when this was released but RL got in the way. Have a bit of time right now so I'll play through.

As a hardcore optimizer I'm not too fond of branching decision points since I feel obligated to try each combination, although the effects are ameliorated in this hold since it's relatively short. It looks like there are at least 16 paths for the choice of Sword or Shield in each tier. Each time I pick Shield also need to consider whether to drop existing Sword for swordless route through a tier. Partially independent of equipment choice is how to spend key in each tier (only applies to first tier?) or whether to save a key for future tier. All in all there could be in the range of 50 paths to final boss although some could be pruned out earlier.

Whether skipping a tier of equipment is possible depends on how much spare health is available; cannot be sure without playing through. Another challenge could be to avoid picking up keys or avoid spending keys.

The layout of 15N1W was pretty clever. For a moment I was confused about the trapdoor behind gel before I realized it's there to prevent trapdoor gate from being triggered by dropping trapdoors. Maybe move it to the corner with Waterskippers to make it clear you're not meant to step on it?

[Last edited by greenscience at 07-28-2020 02:21 AM]
07-28-2020 at 02:08 AM
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greenscience
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icon Re: Funky Grapple (+1)  
I see that the bombs are meant to prevent a player from dropping their sword to take shield route resources in a tier after first taking sword route resources. However it is possible to enter a tier without sword to pick up shield route resources first, then pick up sword for sword route resources. This costs extra health initially but is liable to snowball into big advantages later on.

If this option is not intended then it would be a good idea to add force arrows preventing access to the sword slot after entering a tier proper. Leaving access to shield slot open is still a good idea to allow swapping between Metal and Wooden shields for oremites. NE arrows on the three tiles in the middle of sword and shield should do the trick and allow you to remove the bombs.

Also is the Flyin' Eyeball meant to drown if you move a platform under them then away? I see the puzzle potential in that behavior but thematically it conflicts with the monster's name.
07-28-2020 at 05:03 PM
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Xindaris
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icon Re: Funky Grapple (+2)  
Thanks for your comments, greenscience. Here are some words in response:

I try to make a lot of meaningful-seeming decisions available because that seems to be what people consider good in an RPG game in the first place. I'm concerned that a path with no major choices to make would be called out as dull and too quick/easy to fully explore and optimize. I guess it's really more of a balancing act?

Both of the things mentioned in your second post are intentional. The first is what I referred to in the first post as "theft" or "stealing", namely, "stealing" resources intended for a swordless player and then going and getting a sword. I know this makes an "anything" route and an "all swords" route both a little easier than the "all shields" route, but I'm actually okay with that too. I think it lends some variety to how optimizing each route goes, as opposed to them all kind of being the same thing?

Also, Flyin' Eyeball is supposed to fall off of platforms, yes. My interpretation is that it starts out flying, but that doesn't mean it's always flying. It's lazy and will land when able, then can't get itself back into the air quick enough to not fall into water when the ground comes out from underneath it.

I feel like the trapdoor isn't all that hard to figure out that you can't reach it. But I guess I could make a custom monster similar to the Uglin named the "You Can't Step Here Guy" and plop him on the trapdoor and give him infinity stats just to really drive the point home. As for water skippers, the player can kill those at this point so I'm not sure they're a great deterrent?

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[Last edited by Xindaris at 07-29-2020 02:01 AM]
07-29-2020 at 01:55 AM
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greenscience
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icon Re: Funky Grapple (+2)  
You're welcome. For the parts that are intentional design decisions I don't have much to say right now.

I've cleared the second tier using 5 different combinations of weapon/shield per tier (including dropping weapon). For choices between atk and def I always picked atk using the heuristic that atk is better for short holds, although the difference in direct damage taken while getting atk vs def in later tiers might make some def picks worth it. So far there are not enough resources to outright skip equipment or keys even if I were to use theft.

Another idea for checkpoints is to split the final tier checkpoint into versions using theft and versions without theft, with a new name for the version using theft. The idea is that a first playthrough is less likely to realize theft is possible so they see a normal checkpoint, then discovering theft leads to a hidden checkpoint.

For the trapdoor comment I meant literally moving it to the corner of the room so it is more out of the way. Either one square over to the NW corner or to the SW corner closer to where Waterskippers are. The SW corner seems more aesthetically pleasing due to symmetry.
07-29-2020 at 01:29 PM
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greenscience
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icon Re: Funky Grapple (+2)  
I finished third tier using 13 different combinations of weapon/shield per tier. Compared to the first two tiers where the swordless routes for that tier ended with less health the third tier ended with less health when I picked the tier 3 sword. Sword routes using tier 3 shield with weaker weapon also ended with high health so it seems tier 3 favors high defense in general rather than any difference between the sword and swordless routes. Although if theft were used then the routes using tier 3 sword would even up more balanced on health.

Killing the AntiBrain over the Brain in 8N1E was never optimal in any of the routes I tested. The enemies just do so much damage with doubled atk compared to doubled def that even losing the large for medium potion doesn't cover the difference. The Wraithwing and Brain in 1N1E were also skipped but at least in that case killing them only costs a little more compared to killing brained roaches, so it is worth it for the REP.



Reached end of tier 4 using all swords route, all shields route, and a few fixed routes. The all swords route and all shields routes were pretty challenging, reaching into the territory where you don't have enough health to make the optimal long term choices like getting stats behind hot tiles first. Although there is enough easy health early on in tiers to get all items except for the all swords route in tier 3, which could be fixed by using theft as I mentioned. Overall tier 3 is an exception where I end up with more health when picking the shield whereas other tiers make the swordless option harder.

It feels like tier 4 has too much spare health compared to earlier tiers. Removing up to 3 large potions on the sword route and 2 large potions on the swordless route (or 1 large potion plus 1 large potion in tier 3 swordless route) would make the all swords or shields routes tighter but still manageable. Although since this is the last tier having extra health at the end does not matter as much and reduces the need for heavy optimization.

The briar puzzle was particularly fun. It was interesting to see how having a sword vs no sword affects how you grow the briar.

By the way, the REP scorepoint doesn't currently remove keys before calculating score. It is only worth opening pairs of doors in tier 4 so it's common to end up holding the third key.

[Last edited by greenscience at 08-01-2020 12:29 AM]
07-30-2020 at 05:33 PM
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kieranmillar
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icon Re: Funky Grapple (+4)  


[Last edited by kieranmillar at 08-04-2020 11:17 AM]
08-04-2020 at 07:56 AM
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greenscience
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icon Re: Funky Grapple (+2)  
Good playthrough. I see you also found the bug with REP scorepoint, which doesn't remove keys before calculating score. Having the map reveal everything is useful but I see that it can mislead people on what stats are available on the last sword as well as how keys can be used in the final tier due to pressure plates.

I didn't see the trick of grappling from the widest platform when getting skeleton key and accidentally killed a Gel Baby in the token room on swordless route since I was thinking it had to be done in one trip. Wish I could have seen you solve the tar-gel cutting puzzle on the sword route; it is one of the harder puzzles along with the briar room. Solving third tier using Wooden Blade and Steel Shield is possible by crossing hot tiles earlier and likely also requires using both keys on stats and health in this tier.

Overall the balance is great and only the REP scorepoint needs to be fixed. While I earlier suggested removing some potions from the last tier to make health tighter a better alternative could be to buff the final boss instead to avoid complicating gameplay up to that point. Maybe up to 3500 more dmg on the all swords route and up to 2000 on the all shields route. An additional 1000 on top of that for each route is possible but goes into heavy optimization territory.
08-04-2020 at 02:07 PM
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Xindaris
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icon Re: Funky Grapple (+2)  
Thanks for your video kieranmiller. I have a few comments on things encountered throughout:

-I noticed an error in 9N1W. I had intended for the button under the flyin' eyeball to only give a swordless player access to one more of the stats, but of course you can reuse the button to open the doors as many times as you like. I'm actually okay with this since an all-shields player kind of needs all the help they can get anyway.

-Also in 9N1W, it seemed like you ignored the blue key for quite a while. As far as I can tell, it's a matter of you never wanting to "just take damage" from an "attacks adjacent" enemy, and rather wait until you can kill them, while I had imagined the player running for keys right away in each tier (since they give big prize caches) and also expecting to "just take damage" in several cases. I don't necessarily consider this good or bad, just an interesting difference in mindsets.

-When I earlier made the decision to leave a "really big-ish sword" where the hook would also do, it didn't occur to me that this might actually confuse the player. I think I'm just going to scrap the custom sword that does nothing but confuse, and put a hook there like I probably should have in the first place. But I'll try to keep that advice in mind if I think I have a good idea for a custom sword later, at least.

-In 15N1E you said killing the water skippers is necessary, but that's not the intent. Rather, the idea is to minimize the damage taken from the skippers while moving the mirrors around. Plus, a clever player can actually use "killing a skipper" to grow the briar and save some rattlesnake hits, as well as some mirror motion if done properly.

-You noticed a map pickup graphic in one place; that's because I had NPCs resetting hot tile damage and re-revealing the maps in a few of the later-tier start rooms for testing in build mode. I'll remove those before HAing the hold, for sure.

-I'll pick up some of my old saves and see about tweaking the final grappler. I don't want to make him so powerful that an all-shields player has too much trouble with him, but I agree buffing him a bit would be good so he's not just completely free to a powerful player not doing all-swords or all-shields.

edit about an hour later: ...And I will make sure to zero out the player's keys for the REP scorepoint, derp.

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[Last edited by Xindaris at 08-04-2020 07:15 PM]
08-04-2020 at 06:25 PM
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Xindaris
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icon Re: Funky Grapple (0)  
So...
My own testing makes grappler 4 look extremely tight on the all-shields route already; possibly I'm just not a great optimizer. Going from an old all-shields save at the start of tier 4 I got to 311 attack, 284 defense (including the shield), and 3347 health, and that left me with 539 health after the boss. Then I got to thinking that maybe I misunderstood your meaning of "buffing"? Like, not changing his base stats but giving him extra attack, defense, or health if the player is on that particular route? Possibly raising his base stats but debuffing them if the player took all shields? Otherwise, I don't actually know what's a reasonable base stat change without more data on all-shields stat levels people have had to use as a comparison.

Well, other than trying to implement this tweak, the other changes mentioned above have been updated to the first post, anyway.

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[Last edited by Xindaris at 08-04-2020 11:05 PM]
08-04-2020 at 11:04 PM
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greenscience
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icon Re: Funky Grapple (+1)  
On the all shields path Meta ended up with 323/312 stats while I ended up with 319/316 (not sure how he had one 4 more ATK at cost of 4 less DEF when I always took ATK gems, maybe some gems were changed in an update?) and we both had about 5000 hp. These are very optimized runs so a more reasonable target would be making the Grappler do around 3000 dmg to someone with 300/300 stats, which actually applies to the Grappler's current stats but they're too lenient for the all swords route.

My all swords route without theft ended up with a bit over 400/200 stats and 6500 health while the Grappler only does 2100 damage to someone with these stats. Theft would make ending stats more like Meta's but we can use mine as a target and aim for around 4500 dmg for less optimized runs depending on what you're comfortable with.

The stickied DAA Architectural Handbook has a post about balancing boss stats for ATK and DEF routes, although you'll need to tweak a bit since Grappler dealt extra hits. When targeting for 4500 dmg against all swords route with 400/200 stats and 3000 dmg against all shields route with 300/300 stats you could give the Grappler stats ranging from 5500/340/220 to 8400/400/0 depending on how much DEF you want the Grappler to have. Higher DEF requires lower HP and ATK to balance damage making the Grappler more sensitive to stat changes while lower DEF is the opposite, so picking a set of stats with lower DEF makes things easier for those who did not manage to get all gems.
08-05-2020 at 12:18 AM
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Xindaris
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All right. I've settled on some stats in that range I think I can be happy with: 6000/400/50. With this, I think the level I was at just needed a bit more HP, and it should also make it tougher for non-"shield only" routes. I think my brief, rough experimentation neglected adding more hp and removing some attack. For the moment, this version is updated to the first post; hopefully it works well enough.

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[Last edited by Xindaris at 08-05-2020 01:46 AM]
08-05-2020 at 01:45 AM
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Xindaris
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Well, I feel like there's been sufficient feedback. Unless someone has noticed another major issue or has some other tweaking I should do, I'll push this to HA soon (tm).

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[Last edited by Xindaris at 08-11-2020 05:19 PM]
08-11-2020 at 05:18 PM
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Xindaris
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icon Re: Funky Grapple (+1)  
It's in HA now. But just as a note to the HA's or whoever, I'm moving over the next 2-3 days, so may be slow to respond after today.

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[Last edited by Xindaris at 08-14-2020 07:29 PM]
08-14-2020 at 07:29 PM
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Caravel Forum : DROD RPG Boards : RPG Architecture : Funky Grapple (quirky gameplay-focused RPG with grappling hook)
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