LichbannMejolaro
Level: Goblin
Rank Points: 16
Registered: 04-07-2019
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So, I'm fairly new to DROD, and bought all of them recently. I've read somewhere (I think it was RPS) that the best place to start was Gunthro and the Epic Blunder, and I already finished it. However, after i did it, I tried a custom hold just for the sake of it, and got a stage that had goblins, tree branches, a blue thing that is immortal and so on, which are all things I never saw on GatEB.

That being said, and considering that at some point I really want to play some user-made holds, I ask you fine people: What is the order for me to keep playing the series and being presented in the right order to new mechanics (I loved how GatEB had one dungeon entirely dedicated to every new type of enemy/mechanic that you faced, is this something that keeps happening through the whole series?)

THanks in advance for any help

Insoluble
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1638
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Probably either King Dugan's Dungeon or Journey to Rooted Hold would be the next best bet if you want to stick with official holds for progression. It depends on how much of a completionist you want to be. If you don't care too much about playing through everything Journey to Rooted hold is possibly a better next step. It will get you introduced to a lot of new elements and is pretty good about introducing one new thing per level. There are a couple of elements that are not in Gunthro that Journey assumes you have seen (mostly tar and goblins I think? EDIT: also potions. Forgot about potions). But Journey does a pretty good job of not throwing those at you too hard at first either.

If you really enjoyed Gunthro and feel like getting the full expeirence then I'd actually say to go ahead and play from the beginning starting with King Dugan's Dungeon though. It's the very first DROD hold ever after all and a lot of DROD lore in subsequent holds (both official and user made) will reference it. It holds up fairly well too all things considering. In terms of difficulty, both King Dugan's and Journey to Rooted hold are pretty similar, with the emphasis being more on combat tactics than on finding a cleaver trick that underpins any particular room. I'd say that Journey to Rooted Hold is slightly more difficult out of the two, but not by too much.

Out of curiosity, which user made hold did you play? There are quite a few user made holds out there that assume you've played all the official games and then gotten a PhD. in monster manipulation, but there are also quite a few that are more approachable to folks who haven't played all the games. I'm sure some of us forum folks can brainstorm and try to think of some good holds that don't have too many elements you haven't encountered yet. Generally anything published in 2003 or 2004 will only have elements from the original King Dugan's Dungeon, so the only new things you'll see are tar and goblins. Unfortunately those happen to be the two elements from the original game that take the most time to get used to.



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Links to neat forum tools that I always have trouble finding:

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[Last edited by Insoluble at 04-19-2019 09:51 PM]

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4592
Registered: 02-20-2007
IP: Logged

LichbannMejolaro wrote: (I loved how GatEB had one dungeon entirely dedicated to every new type of enemy/mechanic that you faced, is this something that keeps happening through the whole series?)

Yes, that's definitely true of all five of the main holds, with a few caveats.

KDD has introduction-style levels for most elements it uses, but wraithwings, evil eyes and invisibility potions are used with only minimal introductions.

JtRH starts over and introduces elements one at a time as if you were new, so it's possible to begin with JtRH and skip KDD entirely. Notably, JtRH is the only one of the main holds with a full level themed on invisibility potions.

TCB is designed to be played after JtRH, both in story and gameplay terms. It introduces all the elements that were new in DROD 3.0, but assumes you are already familiar with 2.0 elements.

Similarly, TSS is the climax of the "Empire trilogy" (JtRH, TCB, TSS) and assumes you have played the other two. It begins with an introductory level to get you up to speed on the basics of previous elements just in case, but it is just a quick glance and leaves out a lot that you will need to know later in the hold.

____________________________
50th Skywatcher

LichbannMejolaro
Level: Goblin
Rank Points: 16
Registered: 04-07-2019
IP: Logged

Insoluble wrote:
Probably either King Dugan's Dungeon or Journey to Rooted Hold would be the next best bet if you want to stick with official holds for progression. It depends on how much of a completionist you want to be. If you don't care too much about playing through everything Journey to Rooted hold is possibly a better next step. It will get you introduced to a lot of new elements and is pretty good about introducing one new thing per level. There are a couple of elements that are not in Gunthro that Journey assumes you have seen (mostly tar and goblins I think? EDIT: also potions. Forgot about potions). But Journey does a pretty good job of not throwing those at you too hard at first either.

If you really enjoyed Gunthro and feel like getting the full expeirence then I'd actually say to go ahead and play from the beginning starting with King Dugan's Dungeon though. It's the very first DROD hold ever after all and a lot of DROD lore in subsequent holds (both official and user made) will reference it. It holds up fairly well too all things considering. In terms of difficulty, both King Dugan's and Journey to Rooted hold are pretty similar, with the emphasis being more on combat tactics than on finding a cleaver trick that underpins any particular room. I'd say that Journey to Rooted Hold is slightly more difficult out of the two, but not by too much.

Out of curiosity, which user made hold did you play? There are quite a few user made holds out there that assume you've played all the official games and then gotten a PhD. in monster manipulation, but there are also quite a few that are more approachable to folks who haven't played all the games. I'm sure some of us forum folks can brainstorm and try to think of some good holds that don't have too many elements you haven't encountered yet. Generally anything published in 2003 or 2004 will only have elements from the original King Dugan's Dungeon, so the only new things you'll see are tar and goblins. Unfortunately those happen to be the two elements from the original game that take the most time to get used to.

Thanks for the elaborate answer. I think I'll go through KDD first then, then I'll go to JTRH.

As for the hold I tried, it was Gigantic Jewel Lost. Wasn't trying to finish it or anything, but got a bit scared already in the first level

disoriented
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2386
Registered: 08-07-2007
IP: Logged

Gigantic Jewel Lost is an amazing hold, but it is very hard and it assumes you’ve played up through TCB.

____________________________
34th Skywatcher

Best to PM me, since I might miss your message on CaravelNet chat.

LichbannMejolaro
Level: Goblin
Rank Points: 16
Registered: 04-07-2019
IP: Logged

Nuntar wrote:

LichbannMejolaro wrote: (I loved how GatEB had one dungeon entirely dedicated to every new type of enemy/mechanic that you faced, is this something that keeps happening through the whole series?)

Yes, that's definitely true of all five of the main holds, with a few caveats.

KDD has introduction-style levels for most elements it uses, but wraithwings, evil eyes and invisibility potions are used with only minimal introductions.

JtRH starts over and introduces elements one at a time as if you were new, so it's possible to begin with JtRH and skip KDD entirely. Notably, JtRH is the only one of the main holds with a full level themed on invisibility potions.

TCB is designed to be played after JtRH, both in story and gameplay terms. It introduces all the elements that were new in DROD 3.0, but assumes you are already familiar with 2.0 elements.

Similarly, TSS is the climax of the "Empire trilogy" (JtRH, TCB, TSS) and assumes you have played the other two. It begins with an introductory level to get you up to speed on the basics of previous elements just in case, but it is just a quick glance and leaves out a lot that you will need to know later in the hold.

Nice to know about Wraithwings and Evil Eyes, because those were elements presented very far into GAETB and I could manage them pretty well, even though I'm not quite sure how the Wraithwings behave when they're in a group, since the narrator says that they tend to flee just when they're alone, but even in a group they would flee from me sometimes.

As from Evil Eyes, I got extremely surprised as the level where they were introduced was by far the easiest to me in the game. I could beat all the rooms in one sitting without ever being stuck, something that happened a lot in other levels.

So, even though you recommended skipping KDD< I'll play for historical and completionist purposes. Following what you said next, I think my order will be KDD - JTRH - TCB - TSS and then I'll dive into the user made holds.

Maybe I'll play some Drod RPG at some point as well, even though I'm not particularly excited to do it, since, for what I read, the game requires a level of planning that is way beyond my capabilities.

LichbannMejolaro
Level: Goblin
Rank Points: 16
Registered: 04-07-2019
IP: Logged

disoriented wrote:
Gigantic Jewel Lost is an amazing hold, but it is very hard and it assumes you’ve played up through TCB.

Oh, so that's the catch. I'll save it for later then, good to know that I picked an amazing one for starters.

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4592
Registered: 02-20-2007
IP: Logged

LichbannMejolaro wrote: I'm not quite sure how the Wraithwings behave when they're in a group, since the narrator says that they tend to flee just when they're alone, but even in a group they would flee from me sometimes.

For that kind of thing, you might want to look at a usermade hold called Advanced Concepts, which takes you through some of the more complex game elements with written explanations of their mechanics. Be warned -- some elements, especially brains, are a lot more complicated than you might think!

So, even though you recommended skipping KDD< I'll play for historical and completionist purposes.

I didn't recommended skipping KDD; I just said you could. Not the same thing at all.

I feel KDD gets a bit of a bad rap these days, because it has an old-fashioned style of room design, with a lot more focus on combat tactics and less on monster manipulation and logical puzzles (which many players prefer). However, I think it's a fun hold and a great introduction to the series. The only downside to starting with KDD instead of JtRH is that it doesn't have much plot -- JtRH is where that really kicks off.

I should also mention that all the earlier holds can be played in the TSS (5.0) engine, and doing this will give you some enhancements such as in-game challenges.

____________________________
50th Skywatcher

disoriented
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2386
Registered: 08-07-2007
IP: Logged

Definitely play the older holds in the TSS engine so you get the benefit of unlimited undo.

____________________________
34th Skywatcher

Best to PM me, since I might miss your message on CaravelNet chat.

LichbannMejolaro
Level: Goblin
Rank Points: 16
Registered: 04-07-2019
IP: Logged

Nuntar wrote:

LichbannMejolaro wrote: I'm not quite sure how the Wraithwings behave when they're in a group, since the narrator says that they tend to flee just when they're alone, but even in a group they would flee from me sometimes.

For that kind of thing, you might want to look at a usermade hold called Advanced Concepts, which takes you through some of the more complex game elements with written explanations of their mechanics. Be warned -- some elements, especially brains, are a lot more complicated than you might think!

So, even though you recommended skipping KDD< I'll play for historical and completionist purposes.

I didn't recommended skipping KDD; I just said you could. Not the same thing at all.

I feel KDD gets a bit of a bad rap these days, because it has an old-fashioned style of room design, with a lot more focus on combat tactics and less on monster manipulation and logical puzzles (which many players prefer). However, I think it's a fun hold and a great introduction to the series. The only downside to starting with KDD instead of JtRH is that it doesn't have much plot -- JtRH is where that really kicks off.

I should also mention that all the earlier holds can be played in the TSS (5.0) engine, and doing this will give you some enhancements such as in-game challenges.

Sorry for the misconception about skipping KDD.

As for playing on TSS engine, how can I do it?

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4592
Registered: 02-20-2007
IP: Logged

(I'm not entirely sure about this, so this is open to correction.) I think you need to activate CaravelNet -- you should have gotten a one-month subscription with your DROD purchases. Then load TSS and go to "Change Location" and all the official holds (as well as all published usermade holds!) will be available to select for in-game download.

____________________________
50th Skywatcher

LichbannMejolaro
Level: Goblin
Rank Points: 16
Registered: 04-07-2019
IP: Logged

Nuntar wrote:
(I'm not entirely sure about this, so this is open to correction.) I think you need to activate CaravelNet -- you should have gotten a one-month subscription with your DROD purchases. Then load TSS and go to "Change Location" and all the official holds (as well as all published usermade holds!) will be available to select for in-game download.

I'll give it a try, thanks a lot!