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jdyer
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icon "Lazy solving" of puzzles (0)  
Erik made a reference to this in his G4G speech, and I was wondering if there was more detail since it's just a line in the outline.
04-05-2019 at 10:26 PM
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ErikH2000
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icon Re: "Lazy solving" of puzzles (+3)  
jdyer wrote:
Erik made a reference to this in his G4G speech, and I was wondering if there was more detail since it's just a line in the outline.
As promised, I'll expand on this a little informally here, and my thoughts now may not be the same as what I had in my head back then. It's a topic I like a lot. JDyer, I'm curious about your thoughts on it too. You mentioned some potential overlap with your work.

I first started thinking about this when I was a senior in high school, and my great friend Alan Reid gave me the 8 Queen puzzle to solve with code.

If you scan through every possible board state and evaluate for a solution, it takes a lot of time to solve, or at least much more time than the computer really needs with a more optimized solver.

You can break down the solution process different ways. But one obvious way is to think of the chess board like a combination lock, with each column of the board containing a number between 0 and 7 representing a proposed row position of a Queen in that column. You know that a winning state will never have two Queens in the same column, so just using a representation that assumes this throws out most of the potential board states.

Other optimizations are possible, The board has symmetry, so you could look through all the combinations for the first four columns and have found every solution. You just need to flip them horizontally to generate the mirror image solutions.

It hides the lazy puzzle solving idea to use a computer. Because it's still a computer marching through possible solutions, and doesn't illuminate the idea of laziness as practiced by the human puzzle solver. Instead imagine yourself sitting with a physical chessboard, no computer for miles around you. And you have to solve the Eight Queens Puzzle. In fact, go get a chessboard and try it.

You might, to get a sense of the stupidity and inhuman tediousness of it, try moving the eight queens through every possible state:

1. Line them all up along the top row. (NOT a solution)
2. Move the rightmost queen down one row. (NOT a solution)
3. Move the rightmost queen down another row. (NOT a solution)
etc, etc.

Also to do it like a perfect brute, be sure to try all the board states with queens in the same column.

The point of this exercise would be to note the impatience of your mind straining at the leash. If you solve this puzzle more naturally, you'll be finding shortcuts and general principles. Little rules and concepts form with you barely needing to try. And some of these rules will be visual in nature, using the fast pattern-matching capabilities of your brain. You'll know after a little bit of play that lines are *bad*. Whenever you see a line, be it horizontal, vertical, or diagonal, made up of 2 or more pieces, that is a non-solution. The pattern you are looking for is something like the lack of a pattern--perfectly disorganized.

LATE THOUGHT: Not quite right. Several of the solutions look fairly organized with lines at 2/1 slopes and so on.

We are too smart to be satisfied with plodding through busywork. And any puzzle that yields no opportunity for us to apply insights is at best a kind of meditation exercise. Good maybe for killing the last four hours of a transatlantic plane flight, when you can't sleep, but are too tired to do any proper thinking.

-Erik

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The Godkiller - Chapter 1 available now on Steam. It's a DROD-like puzzle adventure game.
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[Last edited by ErikH2000 at 04-06-2019 02:02 AM]
04-06-2019 at 01:52 AM
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jdyer
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icon Re: "Lazy solving" of puzzles (+1)  
Still formulating a reply. I should mention (in conversation with coworker) he brought up this blog series, which includes The Monte Carlo Player which sounds a lot like your "node-searching".

http://www.electrondance.com/the-monte-carlo-player/

[Last edited by jdyer at 04-08-2019 11:55 PM]
04-08-2019 at 11:53 PM
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ErikH2000
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icon Re: "Lazy solving" of puzzles (+1)  
jdyer wrote:
Still formulating a reply. I should mention (in conversation with coworker) he brought up this blog series, which includes The Monte Carlo Player which sounds a lot like your "node-searching".

http://www.electrondance.com/the-monte-carlo-player/
I love this article. Thanks for sharing.



"This sort of architecture, where it is hard to read the puzzle without experimentation, suggests an undo is vital. Undo allows us to rifle through alternate futures rapidly. It is a technology which augments our thinking. But like the smartphone, it may not change us in ways we like. We jump when the smartphone hollars at us Hey BUDDY, someone has responded to you on Twitter! Do we like being wired this way? Always on, always ready to engage? Is the undo as harmless and beneficial as it seems?"

-Erik

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The Godkiller - Chapter 1 available now on Steam. It's a DROD-like puzzle adventure game.
dev journals | twitch stream | youtube archive (NSFW)
04-09-2019 at 04:03 AM
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jdyer
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icon Re: "Lazy solving" of puzzles (+2)  
Another relevant article I just found, by Thomas Snyder, multi-time World Puzzle Champion and World Sudoku Champion. What does it mean when a puzzle has "no guessing"?

https://www.gmpuzzles.com/blog/2013/03/ask-dr-sudoku-12-the-line-must-be-drawn-here/
04-17-2019 at 10:04 PM
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Dying Flutchman
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icon Re: "Lazy solving" of puzzles (+2)  
That last article precisely nails the concept of "recursion" or "guessing" in puzzles. Indeed, it is very subjective what we experience as difficult.

This directly translates to solving strategies. To get back to the 8 queens: a lazy strategy could arguable mean to do an intelligent search, such that the search tree is already pruned down before the calculations even starts. And yes, this does mirror the way one would solve this problem using pencil and paper. With all the common sense and clever deductions thrown into the process.

However, if I would try to solve this problem, my laziest possible strategy would actually be to don't care at all and just throw the calculation power of a modern laptop at it. Even worse (?): I would actually do this thing in Excel VBA (not joking). From a computational efficiency perspective outright horrible, but from the effort for me-perspective it would be a splendid solution. And I would be able to share it with basically everyone, also the non-programmers amongst us.

So the concepts of difficulty, recursion and solving are interrelated and also tied to you personal knowledge and also to the available resources (i.e. manually vs computerized) and your skills to deal with the resources.

Resources can be very abstract things. Some weeks ago I suddenly noticed that the older horde-style rooms are very much like the travelling salesman and similar problems regarding the solution space. Yes, there are some small-scale tactics that you can optimize easily (e.g. roaches in a corridor), but the room as a whole also typically features some macroscopic choices about the order in which parts of the room are approached.

So what resources are available to solve this? Researches have had some very nice practical solutions. My favourite is to solve "geometric" optimizations like the salesman problem by using a colony off ants! This had actually been done in the lab. The idea is that every ant starts out randomly, but as time progresses, efficient routes acquire more scent markers and eventually win out over less efficient routes.

Moving back to DROD: It's hardly possible to optimize some rooms just by yourself. But there's a whole community out there, and if a hold is played often enough, some player is bound to discover good strategic approaches for each room that other players can build on.

So yes, we are all ants.

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Autocorrect is not my friend. Apologies for the typos.

[Last edited by Dying Flutchman at 04-18-2019 08:29 AM]
04-18-2019 at 08:27 AM
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