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Emojk
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icon Re: Things I don't like about TSS (0)  
I was very happy to see these rooms, they were a nice change after so many hard puzzles. I'm pretty sure I had an evil smile for the 15 minutes it took me to clear the level.
07-08-2014 at 01:56 PM
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Zaratustra00
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icon Re: Things I don't like about TSS (+1)  
I know this will be chalked to the vagaries of personal taste, but:

I'd rather stop playing than go through the process of solving Mother of All Roaches 2S1W.

07-09-2014 at 09:36 PM
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BlueFlower
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icon Re: Things I don't like about TSS (0)  
The inability to turn off cloud sync W/o turning off CaravelNet.

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07-09-2014 at 11:04 PM
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Dischorran
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icon Re: Things I don't like about TSS (0)  
I ended up rebuilding the lower part of MoAR:1S2W in the editor so I could work on arrangements without needing to go through the first part each time. That took the puzzle from "oh god wtf" to "hey, this is cool".

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07-09-2014 at 11:18 PM
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Watcher
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icon Re: Things I don't like about TSS (0)  
Two things that irritated me about LB:
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A few minor things:
Click here to view the secret text


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07-19-2014 at 10:46 PM
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mrimer
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icon Re: Things I don't like about TSS (+5)  
Here you go :)

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07-20-2014 at 07:50 AM
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Drgamer
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icon Re: Things I don't like about TSS (+1)  
Watcher wrote:
A few minor things:
Click here to view the secret text
For that specific one:
Click here to view the secret text

07-20-2014 at 08:29 AM
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nobodybutyours
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icon Re: Things I don't like about TSS (0)  
I feel bad about not writing down exactly where this was, but there are two places -- one in the first half, I think, and one toward the end -- where "linchpin" is spelled "lynchpin." An easy typo to make but a really unfortunate one!

Hopefully you have a mechanism for searching through the game text? Both were probably in level introduction text, but it's possible one was either in Arky's dialogue/scrolls or in a dev commentary scroll.

[Last edited by nobodybutyours at 07-20-2014 03:03 PM]
07-20-2014 at 03:03 PM
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Schik
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icon Re: Things I don't like about TSS (0)  
More of an alternate spelling than a typo. Search for both on this forum and "lynchpin"is used much more frequently.

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07-20-2014 at 03:08 PM
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Pinnacle
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icon Re: Things I don't like about TSS (0)  
nobodybutyours wrote:
I feel bad about not writing down exactly where this was, but there are two places -- one in the first half, I think, and one toward the end -- where "linchpin" is spelled "lynchpin." An easy typo to make but a really unfortunate one!

Hopefully you have a mechanism for searching through the game text? Both were probably in level introduction text, but it's possible one was either in Arky's dialogue/scrolls or in a dev commentary scroll.

I'm pretty sure both are correct spellings, though "linchpin" is more common/standard.

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07-20-2014 at 03:10 PM
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nobodybutyours
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icon Re: Things I don't like about TSS (+2)  
Oh, look at that. (Thanks.) And this post suggests the version with the y might be specifically less common in U.S. English because of U.S. history.

[Last edited by nobodybutyours at 07-20-2014 03:22 PM]
07-20-2014 at 03:21 PM
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bomber50
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icon Re: Things I don't like about TSS (0)  
I'll add that a search for "linchpin" in message body returns about 3 pages, while a search for "lynchpin" returns 15 pages.

I don't think I've made it to that room, so I can't say anything further.
07-20-2014 at 03:25 PM
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ErikH2000
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icon Re: Things I don't like about TSS (0)  
Rooms that depend on an obscure aspect of an element being discovered in order to solve them. Monster movement prediction that uses sequence of movement.

Didn't care for fighting monsters with alternate weapons. I don't mind them for solving other kinds of puzzles, but combat with a bunch of monsters is more fun when you know all the patterns and tricks.

I feel a little bad about the portraits. There are some that look sloppy, for sure. I was worried about not finding enough time to do them, so I rushed a bit.

I don't think the game is newbie-friendly at all. Both story and game elements are an onslaught. But there's GatEB and JtRH, which are better starting points. TSS is for the fans. I guess that's not something *I* don't like. It's really fun to play, after all. I don't know how better to handle TSS difficulty. It's a marketing problem, really. You don't want to lose the newbies in the Training Hall or levels following. Somebody coming to DROD is likely to grab the latest game and not understand it's a bad starting point.

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07-22-2014 at 04:48 AM
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Blondbeard
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icon Re: Things I don't like about TSS (0)  
Zaratustra00 wrote:
I know this will be chalked to the vagaries of personal taste, but:

I'd rather stop playing than go through the process of solving Mother of All Roaches 2S1W.

Haha! One of my favourites!
07-22-2014 at 05:48 AM
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Arazu
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icon Re: Things I don't like about TSS (+1)  
The fact that important plot points were hidden away from most players in non-free DLC, making the prologue and the first level confusing. (This never happened for previous games.)

The voice acting for the person who wakes up the three Truth Vessels in the prologue. (Also, I have no idea who that is because of the previous point.)

The levels On Dawdling River (this feels way below the average quality of the official holds since JtRH) and Flower Bed (this throws a lot of rules at the player, and then only uses them for a few, not especially interesting rooms).

The grid of empty rooms in Mother of All Roaches. In my opinion, this sort of room art belongs in a postmastery area, not in the middle of a puzzle level with plot. I mean, why would the Patrons or the roaches shape the area like that? (For examples of room art I found fitting to their location, see Temporal Anomaly and Eye of the Storm.)

The rooms Woodland Glade 3N (reliance on the serpent clock to coerce the snake to go north at the right time), Rapid Fortification 3S2E (far too annoying to execute, even when the solution is obvious), Ore Refinery 2N1W (reliance on movement order in an unintuitive way, making part of the solution only work on one side of a symmetrical room) and Construct Warehouse 3 3S1W (same reason as Rapid Fortification 3S2E).


All this might seem harsh, but I'd like to emphasize that I liked almost everything about TSS, and I dislike far more things about most games, so essentially I'm just nitpicking. Really.

[Last edited by Arazu at 07-22-2014 02:24 PM]
07-22-2014 at 02:22 PM
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mrimer
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icon Re: Things I don't like about TSS (0)  
Arazu wrote:
The fact that important plot points were hidden away from most players in non-free DLC, making the prologue and the first level confusing. (This never happened for previous games.)
Sure, I can see being confused at not having covered certain plot content, but then again, all the major titles themselves haven't been free either. I don't think we've ever had important plot points in free DLC. Maybe that's to your point. Players were asking for real story advancement in the for-pay SmS issues between TCB and TSS. That's a fair request, and it's why we went this direction.
The voice acting for the person who wakes up the three Truth Vessels in the prologue. (Also, I have no idea who that is because of the previous point.)
No argument from anyone on this point, I don't think :)
The grid of empty rooms in Mother of All Roaches. In my opinion, this sort of room art belongs in a postmastery area, not in the middle of a puzzle level with plot. I mean, why would the Patrons or the roaches shape the area like that? (For examples of room art I found fitting to their location, see Temporal Anomaly and Eye of the Storm.)
That's a good question.
All this might seem harsh, but I'd like to emphasize that I liked almost everything about TSS, and I dislike far more things about most games, so essentially I'm just nitpicking. Really.
Thanks for playing our game and for the great feedback!

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Gandalf? Yes... That's what they used to call me.
Gandalf the Grey. That was my name.
I am Gandalf the White.
And I come back to you now at the turn of the tide.

[Last edited by mrimer at 07-22-2014 02:35 PM]
07-22-2014 at 02:34 PM
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Vertelemming
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icon Re: Things I don't like about TSS (+2)  
I have mixed feelings. There were a lot of things I absolutely loved about TSS, and I'll be making a post on that in the other thread as soon as I get my thoughts together, but I also spent about 60% of the game in a furious rage. It kept on switching between blaming this, that and the other for it, but it finally clicked what is, to me, the biggest problem with TSS after I screamed at More Fluff for the nth time.

Fluff, as an element, drove me absolutely crazy. I could not figure it out, I had no real idea how it functioned, and every fluff room just seemed designed to be a special kind of hell. And then I came to the forums, read a post that summarised the movement and growth rules of fluff, and suddenly the level was incredibly fun. And that really is the core problem with TSS; the new elements, as fantastically fun as most of them can be, are largely introduced badly, which is especially surprising as JtRH and TCB were so good about introducing new elements slowly and clearly, reinforcing the rules multiple times. I can understand how this happened -- building the game gives you so much familiarity you just start to forget how to learn the basics -- but it turns a lot of what could be fantastically fun puzzles into teeth-grinding hell until you finally develop enough of an understanding to "get" the element. I had similar problems with Temporal Aumtlichs, and with temporal split tokens I had a probably-just-me problem where other games with similar mechanics I've played always have the duplicate stop functioning after being disrupted by something, so I spent a lot of those rooms assuming that knocking the duplicate with a stick or getting in its way would completely stop it in its tracks.

Not all elements had this problem; gentryii were very easy to understand even if mastering them took some experimenting, cabers were a bit too obscure at first but got sensible quick, the staff was immediately intuitive, and the dagger levels were all just serious fun, as we'd had a few games to teach us about unarmed movement and now we just built on that. The spike and fire traps were excellently introduced and quite clear. But fluff, constructs, most of the time travel subtleties, and to a certain degree some of the weapons would have seriously benefitted from more explicit and slower introductions to their implications before tossing the really hard puzzles at us.

The only other thing that really bothers me is the lack of full explanation about
Click here to view the secret text
. However, from a writing standpoint, I completely understand this choice, and am trying to follow that one scroll's advice of just assuming They Are. Still, I would jump all over a potential future game that finally explained who and what that was all about, and more about the nature of the Eighth.
07-24-2014 at 12:32 PM
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Pinnacle
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icon Re: Things I don't like about TSS (+1)  
Fluff is introduced pretty clearly in Icy Underworld (and reinforced in Behind the Scenes), the issue is it's another 30 hours or so before you see it again. A medium-difficulty fluff level at some point in the midgame probably could have helped.

Constructs are simple enough that their mechanics don't really need to be reinforced, the only non-intuitive aspect of them (the turn-30 kill technique) is introduced in a completely isolated way in Rapid Fortification: 1S1W.

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07-24-2014 at 01:37 PM
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Banjooie
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I didn't really feel the turn-30 kill was unintuitive? I mean, wasn't that taught to you in like that one Arky room in Security Gates?
07-24-2014 at 05:38 PM
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mrimer
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icon Re: Things I don't like about TSS (0)  
I'm sorry there was so much rage-inducement. Sure, I can understand that an element, not properly understood, can drive one crazy. It would be insightful to me if you could explain what particular attributes of fluff (in movement and growth rules, right?) weren't clear by the time you reached More Fluff that caused trouble.

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Gandalf? Yes... That's what they used to call me.
Gandalf the Grey. That was my name.
I am Gandalf the White.
And I come back to you now at the turn of the tide.

[Last edited by mrimer at 07-24-2014 06:42 PM]
07-24-2014 at 06:41 PM
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Fang
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I think most of the Fluff's stuff was well explained early on, but we never were reminded of it until that point. For instance, how fluff on a vent grows; I don't remember seeing it much until More Fluff.

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07-24-2014 at 07:15 PM
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Blondbeard
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Fluff drives me crazy too. Not because it's so hard, or unpredictable (so far), but because I have to press the wait key so many times, and it really makes a fluff room feel like a wait-fest, rather than a fun puzzle. With tar stuff you get around this problem with ctrl wait, that waits for the next tar cycle. A similar feature for fluff movement (wait for next fluff movement) in one key would greatly enhance my enjoyment of fluff-rooms.

Also: How come the ctrl-feature isn't mentioned where you can customize your controls?

Anyway: After this nitpick, thanks for a wonderful game, with the best story of any DROD-game so far, and a whole lot of wonderfully crafted puzzles (yes, I'll post in that other topic, eventually).
07-25-2014 at 11:22 AM
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Someone Else
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icon Re: Things I don't like about TSS (+1)  
Maybe alt-5 should be made into "Wait for the start of the next 5-turn segment" - turn 1, 6, 11, 16, 21, or 26.
07-25-2014 at 12:45 PM
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robin
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Ctrl-5 also wait for the next briar growth

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07-25-2014 at 01:07 PM
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ErikH2000
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icon Re: Things I don't like about TSS (+1)  
Vertelemming wrote:
cabers were a bit too obscure at first but got sensible quick,
Yeah, I didn't like going to the forum to get hints for a room, and the first hint... the only one I needed really was... cabers can move brains. Or cabers can make a mud momma skip her spawn.

I don't think I wanted a tutorial to explain this to me--just a very simple "forced discovery" room that wasn't filled up with other elements. I think it's fine to have rooms that don't have a real puzzle to them, but just serve as an intro. Most of the new elements could have had one or two or three intro rooms added to guide discovery of their attributes better.

The only other thing that really bothers me is the lack of full explanation about
Click here to view the secret text
. However, from a writing standpoint, I completely understand this choice, and am trying to follow that one scroll's advice of just assuming They Are.

Hmm. There's always got to be something left unexplained. Or you just go back and back and back to the Eighth's equivalent of the Big Bang.

-Erik

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07-28-2014 at 03:32 AM
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elfbutt
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icon Re: Things I don't like about TSS (+1)  
There were a few rooms with the stick and roach mothers where I had already figured out: push = stun, stun = skipped turn, skipped 30th turn = no spawning. It seemed natural to me that the caber could do it as well, and that the mud mother could be just as stunned.
07-28-2014 at 04:54 AM
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