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What would you think of a Kickstarter project for DROD:TSS?
Awesome! I'd back it, no questions asked.
Sure, I'd back it, expecting to get some kind of preorder deal in the process
I might back it if there were some sweet deals.
Meh, let Caravel raise their own funds.
How should Caravel best run such a project?
I trust them to come up with good ideas.
I have a great idea I'll share below.
I don't care.
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mrimer
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I've seen Kickstarter be used to great effect over the past couple of years both to help potentially good projects see the light of day, and also to help good projects become even better. A notable example of this is Tim Schafer's upcoming game.

I'd like to get feedback from the community on whether you think a Kickstarter project for funding DROD:TSS development is a good idea, and whether you'd be interested in backing it if Caravel were to start such a project.

There are basic reasons one could do this, like to preorder the game, possibly at a discount, as a gesture of good faith in Caravel's ability to deliver on the climactic title in Beethro's adventures. But there could be other reasons too, such as contributing at varying levels to have a greater influence on the game's development. Caravel could do various things like make backers' names appear in the credits or in the main game itself as characters, etc., with varying degrees of visibility. Or defining your dream feature request that the Caravel team would implement in the game engine (not breaking any preexisting backwards compatibility, of course). If this sounds interesting, please vote in the poll and share your ideas on what you'd like to see in a TSS Kickstarter project. Thanks!

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06-11-2012 at 10:46 PM
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RoboBob3000
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The first thing I'd wonder is where such funding would go. My impression has been that Caravel operates primarily as a labor of love, and that people like, say, Mike and Schik, don't have a salary as much as they get a cut of the revenue.

How much funding do you think you would seek? What goals would that funding help you meet? Would you hire more employees? Would this enable you to release sooner? Would this enable you to work on other IPs?

Edit: I would back such a project, but I'm not the person you need to appeal to on Kickstarter.

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[Last edited by RoboBob3000 at 06-11-2012 11:25 PM]
06-11-2012 at 11:24 PM
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Dischorran
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What RoboBob said, more or less. Exactly what would this enable that wouldn't happen otherwise (presumably getting an actual graphics guy on board, say)? For actual up-front funding, I'd expect a leap in quality along the lines of the engine overhaul from AE to JtRH; an expansion pack in the existing engine along the lines of GatEB wouldn't get more than a pre-order. Overhaul the graphics and scripting system, and I'd take much more interest. For that matter, I'd consider Flood Warning as an ideal model for a stretch goal (although a limited-issue plush tribblewubba might not be amiss either).

I guess my biggest concern would be that DROD isn't exactly Day of the Tentacle in terms of getting the nostalgia bucks, and Caravel's publicity isn't terribly existent. I'd imagine you're not looking for AAA level funding either, of course, but I'd also want to see a solid plan for growing the base, too.

EDIT: Question 2 - I'd sort of *expect* them to come up with good ideas. :)

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06-12-2012 at 12:01 AM
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I didn't know this was coming, so I'm not going to answer those questions for Mike, but on my end of things we could spend money on:
- New faster server with lots and lots of space, which would make it more feasible to do some sort of "cloud" storage of players on CaravelNet
- ANOTHER new server for the database. This server is overworked.
- An email sending service. I appreciate the free one we have now, but sometimes our downtime is a bit frustrating.
- Paying the Kardashians to tweet about us. (Okay not really but SOME kind of advertising)

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06-12-2012 at 12:06 AM
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Dischorran
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Schik wrote:
- New faster server with lots and lots of space, which would make it more feasible to do some sort of "cloud" storage of players on CaravelNet
+1

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06-12-2012 at 12:15 AM
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Schik wrote:
- New faster server with lots and lots of space, which would make it more feasible to do some sort of "cloud" storage of players on CaravelNet
This would be awesome if it stored player files on the Server instead of our own computers. CaravelNet users would not need to worry about losing their progress due to computer mishaps!

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06-12-2012 at 12:18 AM
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Schik wrote:
- Paying the Kardashians to tweet about us. (Okay not really but SOME kind of advertising)
Is doing a kickstarter to get advertising money really optimal though? :huh

I'm all behind the server stuff though, sounds great!

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06-12-2012 at 12:51 AM
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The spitemaster
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I find that the really successful kickstarter programs make people think that they help make a game of a project awesome. So, what this really requires is for you to outdo yourself with a new marketing push. Set some ambitious goal like: Creating a multiplayer platform through the server. I think a 1v1 style of a builder vs a smiter would be an amazing new way to play. (People may or may not want something like this) But it just needs to be above and beyond what people think they would get if they did nothing and you did all the work. I also think kickstarter is one of the best introductions to DROD that outsiders could see. The trick is to get their interest and you may get more money than you know what to do with.

Edit: Also the high # donors are worth it. Find something that you don't mind to part with (Likely just requiring your time and patience) that can draw those high numbers.

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06-12-2012 at 01:24 AM
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Oh, man, an active multiplayer would be *awesome*! It would be a lot of work, especially for Schik (and the poor Server), but it would be that jolt of "wow, TSS is a big step up from previous installments" that Caravel might need.

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06-12-2012 at 01:40 AM
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Ooh, oooh!

Yeah, it would be pretty hard to do, and I'm not sure how much attention a DROD-multiplayer would get from people not already into DROD.

...

But it could just work, and it'd be awesome if it did!

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06-12-2012 at 01:56 AM
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mrimer
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Yes, Caravel's efforts are and have always been a labor of love. We will work on TSS regardless. I posted this thread to get a discussion going, explained more below. I do have several ideas about what some up-front funding could do, and I'll share a few of these below, but I'm most interested in seeing what the player community is looking for. That's how I envision what Kickstarter is when it's at its best -- ideally, a grassroots patronage model where everyone ends up getting what they want and they helped to make something awesome.

No, a Kickstarter project wouldn't be to simply produce a game that we'd already produce anyway. No, it wouldn't be on the level with an extra hold like GatEB. No, I wouldn't expect any kind of profit out of it. And, no, I'm not expecting we would try to raise hundreds of thousands of dollars or anything on that level. I'm thinking humbly and realistically more along the lines of about ten thousand dollars being what we'd probably reach with the visibility that Caravel has. The goal of a Kickstarter project would be to make certain stretch goals for DROD 5.0 possible. Matt's ideas are just the type of thing I've been thinking about, that I'd like to dream about, that likely just can't happen without a larger budget to kick Caravel up a notch.

I don't think any company could build a whole new graphics engine with the level of funding I mentioned I expect Caravel would get above. I could very well be wrong about how much could actually be raised, which would be a really cool thing. But in any event, Caravel could add some nice polish in certain ways. For instance, we could produce some great looking graphics for 5.0, above the quality Caravel normally produces, like was mentioned above. We could give many of the existing graphics an overhaul. We could add better (read, any) character and monster animations. We could add animated speaking avatars. We could produce some extra bonus merchandise like that plush wubba all the kids in Ephelna (or was it Glorthorred?) want. We could boost the level of official content we create for TSS.

If players are generally satisfied with DROD's production values and content, I'm fine with that. I myself just love making the games and working hard to give people a beautiful creation. But if there are any things that we could add, if gamers at large were willing to raise funds for, I don't want to miss it. I'd like a clearer picture of what those things are so Caravel could move in those directions when opportunity arises. Hopefully, this makes some more sense.

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[Last edited by mrimer at 06-12-2012 02:03 AM]
06-12-2012 at 01:58 AM
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Without knowing what happens financially if you start a kickstarter that fails, I'd think doing a kickstarter would in the worst case be an effective bit of advertising for only the cost of labor involved. If you tie it in with the release of FlashDROD (or sometime after) new players to the DROD series will have something to play and see risk-free.

I'd put in some money to a kickstarter no questions asked (and I imagine most of this forum will fall into the same bucket), but I am concerned that potential backers who are not familiar with DROD may be turned off when they realize they have to play through three games before they will be able to fully enjoy the finale to Beethro's tale. Maybe DROD has much more support than I know, though. Perhaps you'll have the benefit of a bunch of Webfoot DROD players who simply didn't realize there were sequels.

You might even sneak it in such a way that donating to the kickstarter gets you a free download of one of the earlier games, effectively turning it into a pre-order sales promotion that gives DROD newbies something to play right away. There are probably some downsides to that I'm not envisioning right now, not the least of which will be a very high volume of downloads on the last day of a presumptive successful kickstarter.

It'd be an interesting ride either way, but I can't say one way or the other if it's a good move. It might be, though!
06-12-2012 at 02:01 AM
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I'm going to buy the game regardless. If me paying for the game now is better from your end than paying for it later, then by all means set that up.
06-12-2012 at 02:10 AM
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SirNiko wrote:
You might even sneak it in such a way that donating to the kickstarter gets you a free download of one of the earlier games, effectively turning it into a pre-order sales promotion that gives DROD newbies something to play right away. There are probably some downsides to that I'm not envisioning right now, not the least of which will be a very high volume of downloads on the last day of a presumptive successful kickstarter.
This should be done from the first backer rewards I think. And I agree that the best time for a kickstarter project would be slightly after the release of flash DROD. (If there will be a kickstarter project that is)

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06-12-2012 at 02:12 AM
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I don't really have a lot to say here, but I definitely think putting money into improving the CaravelNet server setup will pay off over the long run.

I'll probably hold off on contributing money until I have a good idea of what it's going to be spent on, exactly.

Also, with enough money it might become practical to have periodic (monthly?) Smite to the Death or Snakes to the Death contests, which, besides being awesome, could help keep people coming back to the forum.

EDIT:

Re-reading some of the posts here, I would definitely pay money to help pay a Caravel Games artist. I know I would really appreciate it if some side-characters like Tar Technicians, Citizens, or even Goblins had multiple portraits.

Plus there was an unfortunate incident where, when we released Finding the First Truth, there wasn't enough time for us to come up with a custom portrait or tiles for the Vessels that matched the CD art. If we hired a new artist to draw the Vessels for 5.0, we could go back and update FtFT with the new art assets.

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06-12-2012 at 02:22 AM
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Jatopian
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I'll probably post again when I'm more awake, but I wanted to say I'm more than a little wary of letting people with money influence the end product in any way nearly as meaningful as "implement your dream feature request". Even "appear in the game as characters" has the potential to ruin immersion or confuse and annoy the player, especially if enough people take you up on that offer.

I can definitely get behind saying what the money will be used for at different levels of funding received. An artist would be good; I think most people can understand the appeal of a video game having art. Cloud storage would probably be a stretch goal people could respect.

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06-12-2012 at 04:26 AM
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RabidChild
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Jatopian wrote:
I'll probably post again when I'm more awake, but I wanted to say I'm more than a little wary of letting people with money influence the end product in any way nearly as meaningful as "implement your dream feature request". Even "appear in the game as characters" has the potential to ruin immersion or confuse and annoy the player, especially if enough people take you up on that offer.

Unless your name is Snuddick Frolem or something, that would seem a bit out of place.
06-12-2012 at 04:43 AM
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Here's what I want to know:

What kind of baseline funds would you be looking for? $1000? $5,000? $10,000?

How would you intend to get the word out? I'm not sure how large our community actually is, what with all the people who have forum accounts for CNet and never actually post, but I don't think we're actually memetic enough to pull in a substantial amount as it stands.

06-12-2012 at 10:15 AM
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Om the other hand a lot of us are grownups, with jobs, and money, and quite a fondness for this game that has given us so many memorable hours for a very low cost. I think a kickstarter have the potential to be a very good idea.

[Last edited by Blondbeard at 06-12-2012 01:42 PM]
06-12-2012 at 01:41 PM
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I am certainly interested in this, and I was already wondering when you would bring Kickstarter here.
I think there a lot of people interested in funding this project - I've seen RPGMaker games being funded, webcomics turned into actual ones and so on.

So, why not?


PS: This sounds pretty extreme, but how about giving all the main games for the people who donate "this-much-is-very-much"? They could play and experience the storyline and feel like their greckles have been given to something really good.

Lesser choices are to give them game of their choice or CaravelNet membership, I think.

[Last edited by The Architest at 06-12-2012 07:18 PM]
06-12-2012 at 07:06 PM
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mrimer
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Yes, giving away one or multiple preexisting games and/or a CaravelNet subscription at higher backing levels is definitely an option.

Also, if people's names were included in the game, it would be presented in a non-intrusive fashion. For instance, the names could be Eightified. Larry Murk could become "Larrick Murkkum", or "1st Murkmaster", etc.

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06-12-2012 at 07:32 PM
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I'm sure Danforth would be willing to say just about anything for the right price. It's sort of his job, after all. He has wall space, too!

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06-12-2012 at 08:10 PM
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Dischorran wrote:
I'm sure Danforth would be willing to say just about anything for the right price. It's sort of his job, after all. He has wall space, too!
It's like the sales people in the company I work for now. "Yea, we have sold this product, it is already finished, it's awesome and stuff". Yea, still in development, all features still not finished, most of the bugs still not fixed, still not properly tested. Whatever.

1st Murkmaster is beyond awesome.

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06-12-2012 at 08:54 PM
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MHighbrow
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Jatopian wrote:
I'll probably post again when I'm more awake, but I wanted to say I'm more than a little wary of letting people with money influence the end product in any way nearly as meaningful as "implement your dream feature request". Even "appear in the game as characters" has the potential to ruin immersion or confuse and annoy the player, especially if enough people take you up on that offer.
This is my concern too, although it's funny to think of some rich eccentric DROD fan throwing thousands of dollars at the Kickstarter just to demand that Beethro finally get his ray gun. Actually I think anything more involved than having a character named after yourself is playing with fire a bit. I was going to suggest allowing contributors to design their own rooms for inclusion in a postmastery level or something, but even that has its own problems if the rooms you get just aren't good.

I know Kickstarter allows you to limit certain rewards, though, so you can set aside, say, just 5 NPC names to give out to those who pledge high enough on a first-come-first-served basis, and not have to worry about the Eighth being swarmed by a plague of John Smiths.

I definitely agree that offering free downloads of old games or discounts on them is a good way to go, along with maybe a few complementary SMS credits or half a year of CaravelNet membership.

I'd definitely contribute to a DROD Kickstarter in any case - hope it goes well for you!
06-12-2012 at 09:43 PM
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Damien
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But apart from the people on this forum and those who already know about the game (and will purchase it when it's released anyway), who would that kickstarter attract?

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06-13-2012 at 12:28 AM
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Damien wrote:
But apart from the people on this forum and those who already know about the game (and will purchase it when it's released anyway), who would that kickstarter attract?
Quite a few people if properly advertised. A "lot" (relative) of Linux gaming sites keep a very close eye on Indiegogo, Kickstarter and the likes, for example.
Current DROD players can also spread the word. There are a few indie devs among us, with their own reputation and quite a few followers, who could tweet about that, for example. There's no telling what the result might be. It's certainly not guaranteed, and doesn't guarantee success for the campaign, but it could help the campaign a lot. Y'know what they say, "every little bit helps".

Provided the set goal isn't unrealistic, I don't see why it couldn't happen, honestly. But.

It will probably need FDROD as a helper. Furthermore, if FDROD gets recognition for its multi-language support, then it's not entirely impossible that people will expect TSS to have that from the get-go.

Many people helping fund on Kickstarter are eager to play the game early, and, from what I've seen thus far, are often willing to pay a little more to get that early access. Even if it's broken. Even if it's incomplete. Heck, sometimes even if it's a very barebones tech demo.

They're also eager to get some kind of "funder-only" bonus, no matter how small it is: the symbolism behind said bonus looks like it's the most important.

DROD is a niche game. You can't seriously expect people to flock to the campaign like lemmings to a cliff. The disadvantage is in numbers. The advantage is that people who will support the campaign, methinks, will know exactly what they'll be getting themselves into. And FDROD will be invaluable for those who hesitate.

There's talk in this thread of better (art, for example) assets. It would probably be best if some of the potential quality could be shown somehow, even if through mockups. Better yet: a trailer. People seem to love trailers. People choose to support a campaign based on a trailer.

It will also take serious incentives to get the most fortunate people to pledge big piles of cash. I'll be stating the obvious, but not offering a SmS as a bonus at all is better than offering a SmS as a bonus for $50 more than the option without it.

All in all, attempting a kickstarter could be a good idea. Problem is: it's getting kind of late on that front, people are getting tired with kickstarters. The question is: exactly how late is it exactly?

A failed attempt wouldn't exactly be bad news either. Caravel would have (potentially, still) raised awareness about DROD to new people, be they few or legion.

My only fear is, as with all KS campaigns: "make your mark in the game, we'll implement something you want". Tell that to a dog and he'll probably pee on your couch. A customer is more often than not a simple player. His views may be completely off, and he may not know what the implications of even a simple change/addition can be. I buy games for their creators' vision. Not that of anyone else. Be they rich or poor. I could indeed trust some people from this forum with this kind of things, there are great holds with great ideas out there, and they're able to stretch the game mechanics to a nice extent. But not someone who never played the game. And that would just seem elitist.

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06-15-2012 at 11:14 AM
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Hyeron wrote: I buy games for their creators' vision. Not that of anyone else.
I couldn't agree more.
Hyeron wrote: [...]people are getting tired with kickstarters.
I seriously doubt that. I can't see any near future scenario where Kickstarter isn't be relevant any more. Just like the Humble Bundles, people like that, feeling like they're involved, or the "indie" vibe, or something.

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06-15-2012 at 08:13 PM
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Much as I'd like to agree, just comparing how Double Fine did, then how Two Guys From Andromeda did... I dunno. There aren't so many blazing successes anymore. I sure hope you're right though.

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06-16-2012 at 12:14 AM
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icon Re: DROD TSS Kickstarter (+1)  
In the space of a few months? Can it not be that people just liked the video and production of one and not the other? What I see this to be is a way to pay for a product before it is produced. If it is something that enough people want it gets made.

It is really just a way to reduce the risk factor of producing things.

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06-16-2012 at 04:47 AM
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KevG
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icon Re: DROD TSS Kickstarter (0)  
Like has been said before, I'm going to buy TSS no matter what. I have no problem with "pre-ordering" it now by donating to Kickstarter. As for other donation perks, I have all the available Caravel products; so will many, if not most, of the other donors. Allowing me to participate in beta would get me to donate more; promising to add unlimited undo would definitely get me to donate even more.:)

As for what the money should be used for, I play with the sound off and I like the current and older graphics. Speaking solely for myself, I don't think the game really need much in the way of improved production values. The server is another story; having money to upgrade it would be a good thing. Schik threw out some good ideas about how the money could be used.

I really don't see any reason not to try it. The only risk I'm aware of is that you'll be obligated to provide any perks offered even if the Kickstarter is a failure. As long as you know that TSS will be coming out in a reasonable time frame regardless, that won't be a problem.
06-16-2012 at 01:09 PM
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