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Jacob
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icon One room in a hold, or a hold in one room? (+2)  
The idea behind my new hold, Figure or Ground, was: each room would play several roles; what was inaccessible and "ground" would become "figure" when you entered from a different entrance (or once you'd dropped a certain door) etc.
I've used similar ideas in some other holds as well (including a certain upcoming Smitemaster's Selection).

So, here's the competition: Create a single room that plays entirely differently depending on the entrance.
I've posted up 2 examples to show you what I mean. Entering in different places enable you to have access to different paths, potions, orbs and means that monsters will distribute themselves differently. There are several other ways of doing this.

Rules:
-You are only allowed to make 1 room in your entire hold (therefore you'll need to use multiple stairs and start positions)
-Elements are unlimited, but *puzzles* are not allowed to use scripting. (dialogue, hints etc are ok)
-All information should be available for solving the room without trial and error. This means that the start positions should clearly correspond to the exit stairs.

Scores should be based on: Fun, Variation between all the different play-throughs of the room (e.g. if the room plays the same for each entrance, there's not much point), Economy (I've made a room that has 2 entrances but must be played through 4 times. Can anyone get a higher ratio? The other ratio is 6:8, I hope) and Originality.

[EDIT: Economy should also include reusability of parts of the room itself, not just the stairs.]

I'm thinking of a 2-week time limit. The holds can then be combined to make a meta-hold (possibly with a meta-room linking them?), and can be released on Holds board.
Anyone up for it?

[EDIT: There's still a problem with this room (the bomb section in the lower right) which is still to be fixed...Watch this space]

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[Last edited by Jacob at 02-18-2006 03:36 PM]
02-13-2006 at 12:52 AM
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Jacob
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icon Re: One room in a hold, or a hold in one room? (+1)  
Example 2: 2 entrances. Must be played through 4 times (each time differently). This hold is a LOT easier than the first one, so is probably more illustrative.

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[Last edited by Jacob at 02-13-2006 03:37 PM : Corrected stairs]
02-13-2006 at 12:53 AM
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Chaco
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icon Re: One room in a hold, or a hold in one room? (+1)  
Interesting. It's certainly an idea that requires thought. Of course, the easiest way to do this would be a mimic room.

EDIT:

In One Room, the lower right stairs exit the hold instead of plopping me at a different entrance.

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[Last edited by Chaco at 02-13-2006 01:04 AM]
02-13-2006 at 12:59 AM
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Jacob
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icon Re: One room in a hold, or a hold in one room? (0)  
quote:
Chaco wrote:
In One Room, the lower right stairs exit the hold instead of plopping me at a different entrance.


Huuuuuuuh? I played that room through several times. Maybe copying and pasting it messes it up. I'll correct that tomorrow.
Until then you can always correct it in the editor: the left stairs re-enter on the left, and the right stairs on the right.

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02-13-2006 at 01:07 AM
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dividendD
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icon Re: One room in a hold, or a hold in one room? (+1)  
I've played both of these holds and I think this is going to be a very good contest.... :)
02-13-2006 at 02:16 PM
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Jacob
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icon Re: One room in a hold, or a hold in one room? (0)  
Mail the holds to me: jgrinfeld@hotmail.com

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02-13-2006 at 05:58 PM
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Tim
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icon Re: One room in a hold, or a hold in one room? (0)  
No! Someone make a submission post, and let everyone drop their holds there!

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02-13-2006 at 06:15 PM
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Jacob
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icon Re: One room in a hold, or a hold in one room? (0)  
But that means that holds will all be released at separate times. Which may be unfair.

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02-13-2006 at 06:21 PM
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Chaco
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icon Re: One room in a hold, or a hold in one room? (0)  
Also, we lowly regular members can't start submission threads. At least as far as I know.

Anyway, in your first entry, I can't seem to make it to the tar mother in time on the second iteration. I'm only four moves short of killing the whole thing.

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[Last edited by Chaco at 02-13-2006 06:23 PM]
02-13-2006 at 06:22 PM
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Doom
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icon Re: One room in a hold, or a hold in one room? (0)  
quote:
Chaco wrote:
Anyway, in your first entry, I can't seem to make it to the tar mother in time on the second iteration. I'm only four moves short of killing the whole thing.
Click here to view the secret text

02-13-2006 at 06:36 PM
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Tim
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icon Re: One room in a hold, or a hold in one room? (+1)  
quote:
Jacob wrote:
But that means that holds will all be released at separate times. Which may be unfair.
No, it won't. At least, according to Schik's post in the submission thread:
quote:
I will also change it so that the folder doesn't turn red for replies, only for the original post.... at least until all the posts are revealed.
I can hopefully conclude that all the posts are revealed at the same time.

Of course the creation of such thread can and should be done by Schik...

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02-13-2006 at 06:38 PM
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Jacob
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icon Re: One room in a hold, or a hold in one room? (0)  
Ok, I'm sorry. I don't understand. What is a submission thread? I thought you just meant we should make a thread on which people could post their entries. I presume you mean something more specific?

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02-13-2006 at 10:18 PM
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Tahnan
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icon Re: One room in a hold, or a hold in one room? (+1)  
He meant one of these.
02-13-2006 at 10:20 PM
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Jacob
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icon Re: One room in a hold, or a hold in one room? (0)  
Oh, cool, thanks. I wasn't aware of that. Are these threads operational? How do I get one? That would indeed be handy.

On an unrelated note, I just got made a Smitemaster, woo!

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02-13-2006 at 10:24 PM
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Mikko
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icon Re: One room in a hold, or a hold in one room? (0)  
quote:
Jacob wrote:
I've made a room that has 2 entrances but must be played through 4 times. Can anyone get a higher ratio? The other ratio is 6:8, I hope


The maximum number of required playthroughs is the number of entrances times two (once with the room starting unconquered and once with the room starting conquered). Whether such a room is fun or just repetetive is another issue.
02-14-2006 at 08:15 PM
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Chaco
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icon Re: One room in a hold, or a hold in one room? (0)  
quote:
Doom wrote:
quote:
Chaco wrote:
Anyway, in your first entry, I can't seem to make it to the tar mother in time on the second iteration. I'm only four moves short of killing the whole thing.
Click here to view the secret text



But if I don't kill it soon enough, it'll block the only passage to the brain and the orb to the next staircase.

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02-14-2006 at 08:17 PM
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Doom
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icon Re: One room in a hold, or a hold in one room? (0)  
quote:
Chaco wrote:
quote:
Doom wrote:
quote:
Chaco wrote:
Anyway, in your first entry, I can't seem to make it to the tar mother in time on the second iteration. I'm only four moves short of killing the whole thing.
Click here to view the secret text



But if I don't kill it soon enough, it'll block the only passage to the brain and the orb to the next staircase.
Click here to view the secret text


[Last edited by Doom at 02-14-2006 08:21 PM]
02-14-2006 at 08:20 PM
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Jacob
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icon Re: One room in a hold, or a hold in one room? (0)  
quote:
Mikko wrote:
The maximum number of required playthroughs is the number of entrances times two (once with the room starting unconquered and once with the room starting conquered). Whether such a room is fun or just repetetive is another issue.


I initially thought this, but now I'm not absolutely sure that's the case. I'm pretty sure you're right, but I've got a couple of ideas I've not yet tested which may allow another one or two (at most 2).

I'd like to know if anyone thinks this contest is worth doing.

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02-14-2006 at 08:32 PM
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Oneiromancer
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icon Re: One room in a hold, or a hold in one room? (0)  
I can think of a way to require at least 3 playthroughs. I'd rather not spoil it, though, because it is going to be used in a hold that is being privately tested right now (not one of mine, someone else's). I'd be surprised if no one had thought of it before, but I haven't seen it used, either.

And of course you can just be really mean and have the room state depend on what square you enter the room on (if the entrance is more than 1 square wide), or Beethro's sword orientation, etc. Although I guess that doesn't count as requiring completion of the room, it just makes it different.

Game on,

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02-14-2006 at 08:37 PM
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Jacob
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icon Re: One room in a hold, or a hold in one room? (0)  
Well, the room I've posted here requires 8 playthroughs. Do you mean 3 playthroughs per entrance?
If so: Oneiromancer proposes 3n playthroughs
Jacob proposes 2n+2 playthroughs (not tested)
Mikko proposes 2n playthroughs
(where n is the number of exit stairs)
Any advances? Any entries?
(Within the confines of the competition the state you enter the room in is set by the architect...Unless I'm missing your point here)

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02-14-2006 at 08:49 PM
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Oneiromancer
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icon Re: One room in a hold, or a hold in one room? (0)  
Sorry, I meant 3 per entrance. And all 3 can't happen at the same time...other stuff has to occur first.

Ah, I guess it's okay to say what I meant. The whole "two ways per entrance" relies on a green door dropping, yes? Well, you can have a blue door too, and you can also script to check to see if that blue door is open or closed. So if you go through all the entrances one way, then drop the green door, then go all the way back with new puzzles, go through where the green door was and conquer that room, then you can go all the way back through that one room with all new objects that only appear after the blue door has dropped.

Edit: ah, I don't know if this will work with the actual constraints that you have, Jacob. I was thinking more along the lines of Beethro Goes Fourth 1S than using stairs. I guess it would probably work, actually.

Game on,

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[Last edited by Oneiromancer at 02-14-2006 09:02 PM]
02-14-2006 at 08:58 PM
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Doom
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icon Re: One room in a hold, or a hold in one room? (0)  
With scripting you can easily create one entrance that has to be used 20 times. You can make characters disappear and check if they're in the room, for example.

The problem is that Jacob's rules don't allow it. (I suppose checking for a blue door is part of this)

I'm propably not taking part in this contest simply because I'm a bit out of usable stuff at the moment. And I don't generally like many-part rooms too much, so I rarely make them anyway. It's interesting to experiment with that maximum playthrough stuff, though.

[Last edited by Doom at 02-14-2006 09:03 PM]
02-14-2006 at 09:03 PM
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larrymurk
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I probably wouldn't make an entry because in general I don't like multiple entry/replay rooms. There are some great exceptions though.
02-14-2006 at 09:09 PM
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Chaco
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icon Re: One room in a hold, or a hold in one room? (0)  
quote:
Doom wrote:
quote:
Chaco wrote:
quote:
Doom wrote:
quote:
Chaco wrote:
Anyway, in your first entry, I can't seem to make it to the tar mother in time on the second iteration. I'm only four moves short of killing the whole thing.
Click here to view the secret text



But if I don't kill it soon enough, it'll block the only passage to the brain and the orb to the next staircase.
Click here to view the secret text



Yeah, but if I do this, it just gives the Tar Mother blob a head start (as it doesn't need to generate the tar under itself while I'm racing)

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02-15-2006 at 12:22 PM
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Mikko
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icon Re: One room in a hold, or a hold in one room? (0)  
I'll probably take part. I'm not promising anything, but this does sound like a nice contest.

In one of your two holds in this thread:
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02-15-2006 at 03:10 PM
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Doom
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Secreted to save space :P (Reply to Chaco's post above)
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02-15-2006 at 05:15 PM
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Jacob
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icon Re: One room in a hold, or a hold in one room? (0)  
quote:
Mikko wrote:
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Oops. I take it you used the mimic to hit the topmost orb then? That's a fatal flaw...I may fix it later.

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02-15-2006 at 07:59 PM
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Chaco
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icon Re: One room in a hold, or a hold in one room? (0)  
Wow. I knew it was possible in general to do what you told me, but I never thought of applying it here.

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02-15-2006 at 10:34 PM
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Jacob
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Deadline this Sunday.

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02-21-2006 at 05:07 PM
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Chaco
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icon Re: One room in a hold, or a hold in one room? (+1)  
Well, I wasn't thinking about it, but I suppose I could throw something together for the sake of participating.

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02-21-2006 at 07:15 PM
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