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b0rsuk
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icon Censorship of the internet (+1)  
http://amsterdam.nettime.org/Lists-Archives/nettime-l-0101/msg00061.html

I found an interesting article about censorship of internet. Interesting summary.
About 40 countries limit citizens' accesss to internet.
About 20 of them can be considered real enemies of internet. Among them Belarus, a country adjacent to Poland.
(By the way, squirrels claim they moved lots of long range missile launchers to polish border)

I created new topic because "Look! Links!" topic is mostly recreational.

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[Last edited by b0rsuk at 10-31-2005 07:49 PM]
10-19-2005 at 10:20 PM
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cheese obsessive
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HAH. That reminds me of this:

http://maddox.xmission.com/c.cgi?u=news

The news update on 9/11/2005. Yeah, citizens of Saudi Arabia and Qatar can't view the best page in the universe. :/


PS. The site is not safe for work. Or citizens of certain countries. O_o

[Last edited by cheese obsessive at 10-20-2005 08:26 PM]
10-20-2005 at 03:11 AM
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jamie
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Interesting link, thanks.

Don't forget, there is also "non-governmental" censorship too.

For instance, if you're aware of "peerguardian" - it's a sort of 'users firewall' that blocks accesses to addresses regarded as being relating to the MPAA/RIAA so to make it easier to use P2P software illegally without getting caught.

As with many project unfortunately, they seem to have gotten too big for their boots - they've added an option to also block access to web sites that are on the list (and they 'helpfully' block the site by locally removing the IP address from the dns, so instead of a user getting a "this is blocked by peer guardian" they get an "unknown address" error.)

Anyway, apparently, some site at my servers ISP (a big hosting company) published some RIAA friendly stuff, and because of that they've blocked the whole ISP -- anyone using peerguardian without setting an override won't see any of my sites, just because of some inflated ego idiot on a power trip)

(yes, they ignore requests to fix it)

Ironically, my server runs one of the 20 'root' servers for booting gnutella clients :lol

Errr, ok, maybe that should have been in 'rants' :blush



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10-20-2005 at 07:19 AM
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b0rsuk
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cheese obsessive wrote:
HAH. That reminds me of this:

http://maddox.xmission.com/c.cgi?u=news

The news update on 9/11/2005. Yeah, citizens of Saudi Arabia and Qatar can't view the best page in the universe. :/

While I like the site quite a lot (I get that weird feeling I'm reading my own posts!), it's perhaps not the best idea to link it here. The forum is meant to be all about rainbows and unicorns - I mean, children friendly.

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10-20-2005 at 08:49 AM
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Mattcrampy
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Oh, you can link it, so long as you mark that it's NSFW.

Even though I personally think Maddox is a flaming douchebag and we shouldn't give him the attention.

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10-20-2005 at 12:54 PM
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Chalks
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Mattcrampy wrote:
Even though I personally think Maddox is a flaming douchebag and we shouldn't give him the attention.


:thumbsup
10-20-2005 at 03:40 PM
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Stuwy
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Maddox is the man. For countless times he has made me splutter my beverage on my moniter for making me laugh so hard. I love his style of unique and witty humor.

I'm buying his book when it comes out.
10-27-2005 at 03:48 AM
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leroy00
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Perhaps ironic that I post this in the "Censorship of Internet" thread, but Stuwy, what's up with your avatar? I assume you mean it to be something between tongue-in-cheek and a public denunciation of US-american political practices, but many people could possibly misunderstand it. Perhaps you would reconsider it. Thanks.

-leroy

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10-27-2005 at 07:59 AM
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Mattcrampy
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Actually, yeah, the swastika is basically taboo in Western culture nowadays. There's certainly a discussion whether or not the United States is a fascist nation, as in fascist-subscribes-to-similar-beliefs-espoused-by-Italy-in-the-1930's, not fascist-I'm-a-uni-student-using-ad-hominem-attacks. That place is probably not here. (I'd personally contend that the US is nowhere near it, but it's interesting to keep in mind.)

It's possible the symbolism in the avatar is that the US is actually Nazist, which I'd probably consider a poor use of free speech. I'd certainly prefer you to try a different tack - perhaps putting a corporate logo in the star field instead of the swastika - but that all depends on how attached you are to the thing and who among the admins really feels strongly about it.

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10-27-2005 at 12:27 PM
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Oneiromancer
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Hmm. Generally I'm pretty easy-going about one-time Hitler or Nazi references, photoshops, etc. that I see on other websites, because I understand a lot of it is for the shock value. It's a bit different when it's attached to every single person's post on a forum, and it's not properly explained. I think that's the biggest issue to me...not the symbol itself, but the fact that there are so many interpretations of it. You could argue that it is denouncing the US as a Nazi-like state, or that the owner is proud of being a Nazi-American. Personally, I don't think it's worth all the controversy and my vote to the other admins would be to have it be removed. We'll see what they have to say (possibly privately).

Game on,

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10-27-2005 at 03:55 PM
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b0rsuk
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Hmm. Generally I'm pretty easy-going about one-time Hitler or Nazi references, photoshops, etc. that I see on other websites, because I understand a lot of it is for the shock value. It's a bit different when it's attached to every single person's post on a forum, and it's not properly explained. I think that's the biggest issue to me...not the symbol itself, but the fact that there are so many interpretations of it. You could argue that it is denouncing the US as a Nazi-like state, or that the owner is proud of being a Nazi-American. Personally, I don't think it's worth all the controversy and my vote to the other admins would be to have it be removed. We'll see what they have to say (possibly privately).
(...)
  Burn her! We've found a witch! We've found a witch! A witch! A witch! A witch!
VILLAGER #1:
     We have found a witch. May we burn her?
CROWD:
     Burn her! Burn! Burn her! Burn her!
BEDEVERE:
     How do you know she is a witch?
VILLAGER #2:
     She looks like one.
CROWD:
     Right! Yeah! Yeah!
BEDEVERE:
     Bring her forward.
WITCH:
     I'm not a witch. I'm not a witch.
BEDEVERE:
     Uh, but you are dressed as one.
WITCH:
     They dressed me up like this.
CROWD:
     Augh, we didn't! We didn't...
WITCH:
     And this isn't my nose. It's a false one.
BEDEVERE:
     Well?
VILLAGER #1:
     Well, we did do the nose.
BEDEVERE:
     The nose?
VILLAGER #1:
     And the hat, but she is a witch!
VILLAGER #2:
     Yeah!
CROWD:
     We burn her! Right! Yeaaah! Yeaah!
BEDEVERE:
     Did you dress her up like this?
VILLAGER #1:
     No!
VILLAGER #2 and 3:
     No. No.
VILLAGER #2:
     No.
VILLAGER #1:
     No.
VILLAGERS #2 and #3:
     No.
VILLAGER #1:
     Yes.
VILLAGER #2:
     Yes.
VILLAGER #1:
     Yes. Yeah, a bit.
VILLAGER #3:
     A bit.
VILLAGERS #1 and #2:
     A bit.
VILLAGER #3:
     A bit.
VILLAGER #1:
     She has got a wart.
RANDOM:
     [cough]
BEDEVERE:
     What makes you think she is a witch?
VILLAGER #3:
     Well, she turned me into a newt.
BEDEVERE:
     A newt?
VILLAGER #3:
     I got better.
VILLAGER #2:
     Burn her anyway!
VILLAGER #1:
     Burn!
CROWD:
     Burn her! Burn! Burn her!...
BEDEVERE:
     Quiet! Quiet! Quiet! Quiet! There are ways of telling whether she is a witch.
VILLAGER #1:
     Are there?
VILLAGER #2:
     Ah?
VILLAGER #1:
     What are they?
CROWD:
     Tell us! Tell us!...
VILLAGER #2:
     Do they hurt?
BEDEVERE:
     Tell me. What do you do with witches?
VILLAGER #2:
     Burn!
VILLAGER #1:
     Burn!
CROWD:
     Burn! Burn them up! Burn!...
BEDEVERE:
     And what do you burn apart from witches?
VILLAGER #1:
     More witches!
VILLAGER #3:
     Shh!
VILLAGER #2:
     Wood!
BEDEVERE:
     So, why do witches burn?
     [pause]
VILLAGER #3:
     B--... 'cause they're made of... wood?
BEDEVERE:
     Good! Heh heh.
CROWD:
     Oh, yeah. Oh.
BEDEVERE:
     So, how do we tell whether she is made of wood?
VILLAGER #1:
     Build a bridge out of her.
BEDEVERE:
     Ah, but can you not also make bridges out of stone?
VILLAGER #1:
     Oh, yeah.
RANDOM:
     Oh, yeah. True. Uhh...
BEDEVERE:
     Does wood sink in water?
VILLAGER #1:
     No. No.
VILLAGER #2:
     No, it floats! It floats!
VILLAGER #1:
     Throw her into the pond!
CROWD:
     The pond! Throw her into the pond!
BEDEVERE:
     What also floats in water?
VILLAGER #1:
     Bread!
VILLAGER #2:
     Apples!
VILLAGER #3:
     Uh, very small rocks!
VILLAGER #1:
     Cider!
VILLAGER #2:
     Uh, gra-- gravy!
VILLAGER #1:
     Cherries!
VILLAGER #2:
     Mud!
VILLAGER #3:
     Uh, churches! Churches!
VILLAGER #2:
     Lead! Lead!
ARTHUR:
     A duck!
CROWD:
     Oooh.
BEDEVERE:
     Exactly. So, logically...
VILLAGER #1:
     If... she... weighs... the same as a duck,... she's made of wood.
BEDEVERE:
     And therefore?
VILLAGER #2:
     A witch! 


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10-27-2005 at 05:13 PM
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Oneiromancer
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Um...sure, borsuk. Is that just another cry for attention or do you have an actual point to make? I don't listen when internet kiddies whine about me censoring their posted profanity on this board, and I'd much rather have someone cursing than see implied Nazi propaganda. The original topic, "censorship of the internet" is a lot different than "censorship of a privately owned forum". Do you need help understanding that?

Game on,

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10-27-2005 at 05:26 PM
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MeckMeck GRE
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Ok, this isnīt a witch hunt here. Its just quite annoying to see that Hakenkreuze and their variations were spread allover everything. Nobody really likes the symbol and most people (and Germans) hate what it stands for but anyway its on school tables, on bus stations (or busses). 98% of them were drawn just for fun. (and not to say "I like Hitler") Now is it really necessary that itīs on the Drod Forums too ? :thumbsdown !
10-27-2005 at 05:55 PM
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trick
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Well, like most things with those idiot nazis, the swastika is a stolen symbol. Originally it was a holy symbol in some eastern religions .. a symbol of good. That meaning has been lost in time now, though. Funny how history can completely alter the meaning of something, huh ?

Anyway, since this symbol now has some very negative associations for huge amounts of people I don't think someone having it in their avatar on this forum is a good idea.

- Gerry

[Last edited by trick at 10-27-2005 06:18 PM]
10-27-2005 at 06:18 PM
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MeckMeck GRE
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trick wrote:
Well, like most things with those idiot nazis, the swastika is a stolen symbol. Originally it was a holy symbol in some eastern religions .. a symbol of good. That meaning has been lost in time now, though. Funny how history can completely alter the meaning of something, huh ?

Anyway, since this symbol now has some very negative associations for huge amounts of people I don't think someone having it in their avatar on this forum is a good idea.

- Gerry

Your right ! Its from a ancient culture. But however the original had round hooks instead of orthogenal ones.
10-27-2005 at 06:23 PM
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ErikH2000
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Stuwy, I took down your avatar. Nothing's held against you, but please choose something else.

-Erik

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10-27-2005 at 06:35 PM
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trick
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MeckMeck GRE wrote:
Your right ! Its from a ancient culture. But however the original had round hooks instead of orthogenal ones.
No, the rounded one is newer, actually.

- Gerry
10-27-2005 at 06:47 PM
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Rabscuttle
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Hitler also ruined toothbrush moustaches for everyone. :(

*plays Wolfenstein 3D*
10-27-2005 at 06:53 PM
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ErikH2000
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I've found when making DROD room designs, that the swastika pattern has come up naturally more than once and I had to edit the room to avoid depicting it. I think the appeal to me is rooted in an early love of mazes. One technique that blew my 8-year-old brain was seeing spirals that looked like dead-ends at first, but because of multiple paths intertwining, you could go into the heart of the spiral and find your way back out. If you remove the bad history from the swastika, it's actually a pretty cool shape. What a shame those guys had to ruin it for everybody else!

-Erik

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10-27-2005 at 07:08 PM
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mrimer
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Yeah, I agree. And it's just too bad about those swastika moustaches...

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10-27-2005 at 07:10 PM
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trick
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ErikH2000 wrote:
I think the appeal to me is rooted in an early love of mazes. One technique that blew my 8-year-old brain was seeing spirals that looked like dead-ends at first, but because of multiple paths intertwining, you could go into the heart of the spiral and find your way back out.
Yes! Me too! I've got one of those multispirals in a hold I've been tinkering with, actually. ...as long as it's rounded it shouldn't be a problem, right ?

- Gerry
10-27-2005 at 07:18 PM
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Oneiromancer
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Yeah, I remember that we had a room like that in JtRH that we ended up modifying. It's a touchy subject. There's a difference between a hold with one swastika shape that just happened to arise in a room...and a hold with the swastika featured prominently in every single room of the entire hold (and in the level design, etc). Same with something like that being in an avatar or a signature...it's attached to every post that person makes, and so it's not a simple matter of just avoiding one post.

Game on,

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10-27-2005 at 07:27 PM
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Stuwy
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Sigh, I guess we aren't ready for political uprise for the American government. I didn't mean to cause much fuss in the first place.

But seriously, who's still scared of nazi's nowday's? For those who find it offensive, read more about it. Scary how we are repeating history....

I chose that avatar because of what's going on today that we need to wake up on. Last time I checked, only 39% of the American population are with bush. I don't know about you, but America's "freedom" is slowly turning into a fascist nation.

Another reason why I chose to present myself with that avatar, is of how strangley similar the Reichstag burning of what Hitler staged to support his speeches promising that he could end the crime wave of subversives and terrorism if he was granted extraordinary powers. Bush couldn't have convinced anybody pre 9/11 to invade the middle east for their oil. Once the deed was done, there was more than enough reasons to go back to iraq.

It's also funny how the Bin Laden and Bush families are very wealthy, and have ties to eachother. Could this mean that this act of counter-terrorism that were doing is just only one meaning for it all. Oil, wealth, power.

Terrorism nowday's is much more frequent than let's say, 30 years ago. Even before 9/11. Sure, there was the odd bomb threat, building explosions and car bombs. But it just wasn't emphasized by the media.

I find it sick to sacrifise 2000+ people of the American people fighting only for the greed their government craves. This terrorist threat is only brought to mask the mass majority of what really is going on.

I didn't choose that avatar to bring up a fight or anything, but that truely sums up my emotions of the American government right now.




10-27-2005 at 07:27 PM
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ErikH2000
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trick wrote:
Yes! Me too! I've got one of those multispirals in a hold I've been tinkering with, actually. ...as long as it's rounded it shouldn't be a problem, right ?
Man, I am not going to write a swastika FAQ. :)

-Erik

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10-27-2005 at 07:36 PM
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Oneiromancer
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While I understand where you're coming from, Stuwy, I notice that you never specifically mention the Holocaust or the 6 million lives lost there. To compare that to 2,000 soldier's lives lost, or any other death figures arising from what Bush or America has done...it either totally demeans the horror of the Holocaust or demonizes what has been going on now far, far beyond what is reasonable. Only comparing selected aspects of Nazism and the current political climate in America does not do any justice at all, in my opinion.

And from a less emotional point of view, I believe on a forum like this, devoted to a video game, that political statements, if they need to be said at all, should be kept to an off-topic forum (like the Anything forum), and not attached to every single post that person makes. I don't want to see an anti-Bush avatar or signature any more than I want to see a pro-Bush avatar or signature on this message board. On a political message board, sure, go for it, that's where it belongs! I don't think it belongs all over this one.

Game on,

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10-27-2005 at 07:39 PM
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ErikH2000
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Stuwy wrote:
Sigh, I guess we aren't ready for political uprise for the American government. I didn't mean to cause much fuss in the first place.
Sorry, buddy, this just isn't a wide open forum. It's got the same kind of social rules and conversational etiquette as Thanksgiving Day at Aunt Matilda's. That's just the charter of the place--too restrictive for some, perfect for others. If I ran another forum dedicated to politics and free-ranging conversation on controversial topics, it would be more anything goes.
I didn't choose that avatar to bring up a fight or anything, but that truely sums up my emotions of the American government right now.
Stuwy, for me, it's a borderline case and I feel a little bad about not allowing it. But I'd feel worse about people getting upset about the avatar, drawing wrong conclusions, and inserting flamage into the forum. So no hard feelings, okay?

-Erik

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10-27-2005 at 07:45 PM
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b0rsuk
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trick wrote:
Well, like most things with those idiot nazis, the swastika is a stolen symbol. Originally it was a holy symbol in some eastern religions .. a symbol of good. That meaning has been lost in time now, though. Funny how history can completely alter the meaning of something, huh ?

Anyway, since this symbol now has some very negative associations for huge amounts of people I don't think someone having it in their avatar on this forum is a good idea.

- Gerry

Good post. But I think the "good symbol" you refer to, at least in case of eastern religions, is a mirror image of swastika.
Anyway, I have seen centuries-old "swastikas" in Poland. Ancient settlements/forts like Biskupin have them carved in wood, and even on coins. There are other symbols, too, but that's not the point. The symbol apparently had some important meaning for slavic peoples. I think we should fight ignorance.
The pentagram was also initially a very good, protective symbol. And - for people with more knowledge - it is. Moreover, Pitagoras (unsure of english spelling) and his students liked the symbol a lot. For both mystical and mathematical reasons. In case of ancient Greeks, you can't draw a line between mysticism and mathematics. Mysticism was the reason why they started studying math seriously in the first place.

As for stuwy's avatar, argument that he didn't mean nazis doesn't hold. 1) On a flag 2) in a circle - exactly the same style as with nazis. As far as I know - "swastika" doesn't appear on flags neither on the east nor among ancient slavs.
What I find disturbing is that people deny any similarities between nazi's and what's going (or was going) in America. It's still a bit of exaggeration, but also a good warning(the avatar). In both senses, no nation was ever holy. If you dig well enough you'll reach a conclusion that each and every nation did disgusting things on a big scale. At least I did. My poing (someone else's quote): Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it.. Closing your eyes won't make racism and fascism disappear !
I attended extra history lessons in secondary school and it's amazing how similar people thought centuries ago. Like today, it was either money, or power, or both. People may have been less educated/technical, but not stupid. Social mechanisms change marginally slowly.

stuwy: I wouldn't go as far as saying Bush is tightly tied to bin Laden family. There's always hypocrisy in politics, but leave conspiracy theories alone.

About rise of terrorism: I think it is very natural. I think it's the other way around: it works (=is used) because it's emphasized on the media. That, and the simple fact that warfare - as usual - is changing. World war 2 was revolutionary in many aspects. Some say US won in Iraq mostly by using WW2 technology and tactics, because super-giga-electronics and intelligence proved less useful than hyped. Terrorism, guerilla and sabotage is used because it works against conventional armies. It is said that tactics book say you need about 3to1 numeral advantage to be sure of victory when facing guerilla - as opposed to 2to1 for normal armies.

Oh, by the way..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_McCarthy
http://www.theeinsteinfile.com/ <--- very interesting book. There's some really disturbing stuff in it. Like, for example, Hoover was a close friend to Himmler. I was also very suprised to find that Einstein was, in fact, no absent-minded scientist, but a very vigorous political activist. He said he felt obligated to use his fame to promote tolerance and fight racism in America. Absent-minded scientist is a product of propaganda.
Albert Eistein was good friend to Charlie Chaplin. A funny quote I remember (watered down by 2 translations, and from my memory)
A.E - why do people like me so much ?
C.C - they like me because everyone understands me. They like you because no one understands you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalism

Oneiromancer: I love you, too.

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[Last edited by b0rsuk at 10-27-2005 09:31 PM]
10-27-2005 at 09:17 PM
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Oneiromancer
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b0rsuk wrote:
Oneiromancer: I love you, too.
If I've told you once, I've told you a thousand times: not in public! You will be punished next time I visit. :whip

Game on,

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10-27-2005 at 11:12 PM
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Mattcrampy
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I'm personally very careful about bandying around the word 'fascism', because of its erroneous association with Nazis. (The political system the Nazi party ended up settling on, incidentally, is referred to as Nazism, as Nazism involves a totalitarian government and a systematic and legal discrimination against particular social groups, which is a good deal further than fascism ever went).

Fascism is a political system where a consortium of cross-industry corporations have a large say in how the country is run. Workers are organised into guilds by industry, and the state is emphasised over individual rights. (I looked it up on Wikipedia. I always wondered what it meant.)

America, while a bit more right-wing than other countries, emphasises competition intraindustry and is uncomfortable about interindustry collaboration; it also has workers that rarely, if ever, stay in the one industry. (Guilds are after all just more regulated unions.)

While it's certainly possible to make a fascist state out of the United States, I'd suggest that one of the defining traits fascism, collective corporate control of a state, probably won't happen in the United States, which after all champions competition. Totalitarianism, however, is a good deal easier to envisage - in the age of the Internet, though, there's always a way for one person to influence the electorate; the war on terror won't fly as an excuse to take away freedoms forever, and people will want their freedoms back after the danger has passed.

The biggest problem I can see facing the United States, in fact, is its partisanship. There's a real feeling that 'liberals' and 'conservatives' are divorcing themselves from one another, selecting news channels that appeal to their points of view, listening only to sources that agree with their ideologies, and dismissing anyone who holds the opposing view as brainless idiots while championing their own view as moral and logical. The rest of us out here, then, just assume that all of you are idiots.

Also, is red the conservative colour? Because I was sure that the conservatives were the right wing, so it's a bit weird that they're the reds.

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10-28-2005 at 12:14 AM
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Stuwy wrote:
But seriously, who's still scared of nazi's nowday's?
I am. Do I really have to explain it? I was wanting to avoid this and maybe the issue has been discussed too much already, but I cannot let that question stand unanswered. I live in the former East Germany, as you may recall. You can see swastikas all over the place, as MeckMeck said, and I think he is right when he says most of those are not meant to be serious. But that isn't the entire story. Ultra-right dogma has becoming more and more "mainstreamed" in the last fifteen years here. There are guys that run around with really short hair and white shoe laces in their jackboots and are proud of it. (And, yes, I know that there are skins and skins and that they originated in the worker districts of the UK.) They also like to run around in bomber jackets of a particular brand because it contains the letter sequence "nsda", their favourite brand of shoes brandishes a big "N", they greet themselves with "88", the meaning of which I am sure anyone working on the puzzle boat can figure out. Every year they drive to Denmark and throw a big party to celebrate Rudolph Hess. Many of them deny, under penalty of law, that the Holocaust occurred. Several people have been beaten to death/chased throw glass doors/tortured because his skin was black/he was an "undesired element of society." A few years ago, several grown men beat up a teenage girl in a street car where I live because her hair was blue. So, yeah, I am still scared of Nazis nowadays.

In the last ten years or so, ultra-right political parties have made it into the state congresses here; currently the NPD, the national party of Germany, is sitting in the state congress where I live. An ultra-right party was in the congress in Baden-Wuerttemberg a few years ago, as well: Ask MeckMeck. In the state where I work, the DVU (German folks union) was elected into the congress about 6 years ago. But you know, in a land in which the unofficial unemployment is somewhere around 20 %, there is a large tendency for simpler characters to draw or have drawn from them questionable conclusions, which leads to an inherent latent political instability. I am sure you can draw some historical parallels here. Maybe one of the Danes hanging around here would like to say something about the role of a right-wing nationalist party in the last ten years in their country. And Like Onei well stated, some may feel that you trivialise certain aspects of history with your comparison.

I agree completely with your assessment of the current state of affairs in the USA. I wish this had been an issue a long time ago, maybe back when french wine was being pouring into the storm drains, french cheese was being stomped flat in the streets, and an act of the congress of the United States renamed french fries into freemdom fries, and no one in the country found that ridiculous. But back then, the patent answer to any objection from outside the USA was "You guys don't know what you are talking about. You don't understand our situation." A really good friend of mine said to me "If they had attacked Berlin, you would think differently." Yeah, I think Micheal Moore should receive the Nobel Peace Prize, and if I were king, I would have thrown the Limbaugh/Rove/Bush/Rumsfeld/Will faction into a re-education camp a long time ago. I just disagree with your way of expressing your viewpoint, especially as just about any meaning can be interpreted into it.

Maybe you now understand my objection a bit better, and maybe there are better ways to help your cause. I, for one, find the egoistic unilateralism of the politics of the government of the USA appalling, especially when coupled with the general political ignorance of its citizens; maybe you can find a way to do something about that. Clearly, no one can fully exercise his rights if he is uninformed.

[/rant]

-leroy

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10-28-2005 at 11:00 AM
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