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Caravel Forum : DROD Boards : Architecture : Time After Time (a pseudo-tutorial on time tokens)
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Chaco
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icon Re: Time After Time (0)  
quote:
Nuntar wrote:
Gamma 1N1E: Might have broken this room? The challenge is to use three time tokens, but I only needed two.

Oh yeah, I see what happened. I took out the crumbly walls near the evil eye from an earlier version because I forgot why they were there. It turns out they were there to prevent that from happening. Easy enough to put them back in.

quote:

Delta Entrance: Neat twist on an earlier room. Not sure what the point of the hot tile was.

It's to prevent that clone from standing there for a long time and being able to distract a roach.

quote:

Delta 1N: Rather annoying, had to remember exactly where clones had stepped so they didn't get in each other's way, since the synchronisation has to remain perfect. Would be nice to have some more space here.

Yeah, I can make that area larger, nothing's particularly dependent on that being a small area.

quote:

Epsilon: This seems to be an "introduction to pushing" level, so if you're familiar with pushing timeclones it's quite a bit easier than the last couple of levels.

It's deliberately meant to be a bit easier of a level since Delta was tougher than normal. I think at that point I remembered "Oh yeah, I was pretending to build a tutorial hold, wasn't I."

quote:

Epsilon 1N1E: Didn't enter the powder keg area. I see that bbb already pointed this one out.

Going to have to think carefully about how to fix this one in particular. I'll come up with something.

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06-22-2018 at 04:05 AM
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Insoluble
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File: Time After Time.demo (32.8 KB)
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icon Re: Time After Time (0)  
Did all of theta except for the secret room since that one isn't really complete yet. These were fun. About the same difficulty as the previous level probably. The Entrance was the toughest one mostly because execution can be a bit finicky. There's probably a clever way to use the wubba that makes things easier that i just didn't see or something. Demos attached in case I did something egregiously wrong. Looking forward to the final room!

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06-25-2018 at 05:51 AM
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Chaco
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icon Time After Time October 15th Update (0)  
Well, after a bit of a hiatus it's time to update the hold again.

The hold is nearly content complete now, including a finished Theta level, one final capstone challenge in the Omega level, and a bit of post-mastery content in the rest of Omega that should be amusing instead of aggravating.

There's still one more empty room in Omega I'm trying to figure out what to put in as a reward, but once I do I'm willing to call the hold done.

Of course, let me know if any of the rooms seem broken, particularly the post-mastery rooms.

Thanks for sticking with me through a whole year of development! Would you believe I thought this was going to be a short project? ;)

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10-16-2018 at 02:02 AM
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Insoluble
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icon Re: Time After Time October 15th Update (0)  
Hold Mastered. The Architect's seal room in Omega is fairly straightforward and a noticeable step down in difficulty from Theta. That's not necessarily a bad thing. It's neat to have the Seal in the final room at any rate. The first postmastery room (1N) is also pretty straighforward, but it seems like it's supposed to be. Haven't tried much in the other two yet.

Looks like i had two secret rooms that I never cleared before.
Level Alpha: 2N1E Felt appropriate for a secret room on the first level. Nothing too difficult, but it has a trick to it.

Level Delta: 2N1E Was pretty tedious. There are a couple of neat ideas in it that would have made for two nice rooms if separated out. As the room stands, I spent a good 20 minutes after I had solved the room just trying to coordinate the dang clones so that they didn't stab each other. Six clones is a lot to coordinate in tight spaces, and while I often enjoy coordinating multiple time clones, in this room felt like they were doing such disparate things and always getting in each others way. And yes, I know I'm responsible for inflicting That Room onto the world so I have no room to complain here.

Anyway. Demos are attached as always. I'll try to clean up the last two rooms in post-mastery so you can have a complete demo set aside your own.

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11-07-2018 at 04:51 AM
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icon Re: Time After Time October 15th Update (0)  
Double posting here mostly because Delta 2N1E got me thinking hard about rooms with 6 or more time clones. Some of my all time favorite rooms have had this many time clones and I've been trying to think about why I enjoyed those rooms but this one left me feeling somewhat agitated. I really want to like this room since juggling multiple time clones can be a lot of fun. And I do like the room in theory. But in practice I didn't have a good time with it and I'd like to try to vocalize why. Feel free to do whatever you want with that information, and I'll totally understand if you decide to just keep this room as it is.

So here are two rooms I loved with 7 or more time clones.
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What is it about those rooms that makes having 6 or more time clones running around tolerable and even fun? I think it's a couple of things. The first thing is that both those rooms are very minimalist in design. By that I mean the actual puzzle is super focused on one key insight. The entire room focuses on that one insight and you can basically sum it up in a few brief words. 2N1E on the other hand relies on multiple different tricks to get all the plates down. The reason this is somewhat problematic is that if you happen to understand the first part of the room, you can spend a bunch of time figuring it out but then have to re-start everything from scratch when the shoe drops and you realize there were actually multiple puzzles involved and you only planned for the first one.

The second factor is that in both rooms there is somehow a ton of space to play around with and the rooms are structured in such a way that time clones aren't likely to stab each-other or otherwise interfere with each other unless you really want them to. Blocking or interfering with other timelines is strictly optional in both the rooms posted above. And while I ultimately chose to do so in order to optimize, somehow the fact that it was my choice, and thus my fault, made it more tolerable when timeline interference ended up getting me stabbed. In 2N1E on the other hand, you need to block time clones and offset their timelines as part of the solution. Moreover, the way the yellow gate blocks them they also have a tendency to all collect around it and will happily stab each other there if you don't plan around that.

So here are two suggestions I would humbly make for this room. First, try to minimize the places where timelines are altered so that there's less of a likelihood that the player gets the solution but has to rerecord several times due to time clones accidentally killing each other. One option would be to space out the pink pressure plates that the clones have to set off a but more and just provide a bit more space in that entry area in general. Another possibility would be to take that yellow door at (2,6) - (2,8) and just make it a whole lot bigger so that clones don't have to gang up on each other there.

A bigger and harder suggestion is to take this room and split it into two rooms. It kind of wants to be two rooms, one for each of the two general ways that you hold down the plates. I know this may be infeasible given the structure of the hold, and is probably more of a reflection on my personal preference for minimalist puzzles. But I think minimalism really is a good approach to take when you're juggling this many timelines for the reasons I mentioned above.

Again, please feel free to completely ignore this. Partially I'm posting it for myself to justify why I had an unpleasant time with this room when I claim to love time clone puzzles that involve manipulating loads of clones at once.

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11-08-2018 at 04:41 AM
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Chaco
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icon Re: Time After Time (+1)  
After reviewing your demo for Delta 2N1E, I can definitely say you found the tediously complicated anti-aesthetic solution. I'm changing it in the next update to 1) require that *all* the doors are open at the same time, which should make it obvious that your plan won't work but my intended solution will, and 2) widen the bottleneck you talked about so it's easier to get all 6 timeclones to their roaches without them stabbing each other.

I completely agree with your thoughts about rooms with multiple timeclones - it's fun to have a whole bunch of them if their jobs are simple. Thankfully I'm pretty sure Delta 2N1E fits the bill when done properly. ;)

I'll check the rest of the demos later and see if anything else needs changing. Thanks very much for providing them!

EDIT:

I should also mention for completeness' sake (in case anybody missed it) that Epsilon 1N1E got changed in the October 15th update so you can't really record wide horizontal paths in the main part of the room anymore; you have to enter the keg room to create a long enough path so the projection can get to the end of the mirror room. I don't *think* making that area 2 tiles wide breaks anything, so I made it that wide for convenience, but I'll make it 1 wide if I have to.

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[Last edited by Chaco at 11-09-2018 02:23 AM]
11-09-2018 at 02:08 AM
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