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Caravel Forum : DROD Boards : Architecture : Time After Time (a pseudo-tutorial on time tokens)
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Chaco
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icon Re: Time After Time (0)  
quote:
Nuntar wrote:
Gamma 1N1E: Might have broken this room? The challenge is to use three time tokens, but I only needed two.

Oh yeah, I see what happened. I took out the crumbly walls near the evil eye from an earlier version because I forgot why they were there. It turns out they were there to prevent that from happening. Easy enough to put them back in.

quote:

Delta Entrance: Neat twist on an earlier room. Not sure what the point of the hot tile was.

It's to prevent that clone from standing there for a long time and being able to distract a roach.

quote:

Delta 1N: Rather annoying, had to remember exactly where clones had stepped so they didn't get in each other's way, since the synchronisation has to remain perfect. Would be nice to have some more space here.

Yeah, I can make that area larger, nothing's particularly dependent on that being a small area.

quote:

Epsilon: This seems to be an "introduction to pushing" level, so if you're familiar with pushing timeclones it's quite a bit easier than the last couple of levels.

It's deliberately meant to be a bit easier of a level since Delta was tougher than normal. I think at that point I remembered "Oh yeah, I was pretending to build a tutorial hold, wasn't I."

quote:

Epsilon 1N1E: Didn't enter the powder keg area. I see that bbb already pointed this one out.

Going to have to think carefully about how to fix this one in particular. I'll come up with something.

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06-22-2018 at 04:05 AM
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Insoluble
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Did all of theta except for the secret room since that one isn't really complete yet. These were fun. About the same difficulty as the previous level probably. The Entrance was the toughest one mostly because execution can be a bit finicky. There's probably a clever way to use the wubba that makes things easier that i just didn't see or something. Demos attached in case I did something egregiously wrong. Looking forward to the final room!

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06-25-2018 at 05:51 AM
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Chaco
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icon Time After Time October 15th Update (0)  
Well, after a bit of a hiatus it's time to update the hold again.

The hold is nearly content complete now, including a finished Theta level, one final capstone challenge in the Omega level, and a bit of post-mastery content in the rest of Omega that should be amusing instead of aggravating.

There's still one more empty room in Omega I'm trying to figure out what to put in as a reward, but once I do I'm willing to call the hold done.

Of course, let me know if any of the rooms seem broken, particularly the post-mastery rooms.

Thanks for sticking with me through a whole year of development! Would you believe I thought this was going to be a short project? ;)

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10-16-2018 at 02:02 AM
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Insoluble
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icon Re: Time After Time October 15th Update (0)  
Hold Mastered. The Architect's seal room in Omega is fairly straightforward and a noticeable step down in difficulty from Theta. That's not necessarily a bad thing. It's neat to have the Seal in the final room at any rate. The first postmastery room (1N) is also pretty straighforward, but it seems like it's supposed to be. Haven't tried much in the other two yet.

Looks like i had two secret rooms that I never cleared before.
Level Alpha: 2N1E Felt appropriate for a secret room on the first level. Nothing too difficult, but it has a trick to it.

Level Delta: 2N1E Was pretty tedious. There are a couple of neat ideas in it that would have made for two nice rooms if separated out. As the room stands, I spent a good 20 minutes after I had solved the room just trying to coordinate the dang clones so that they didn't stab each other. Six clones is a lot to coordinate in tight spaces, and while I often enjoy coordinating multiple time clones, in this room felt like they were doing such disparate things and always getting in each others way. And yes, I know I'm responsible for inflicting That Room onto the world so I have no room to complain here.

Anyway. Demos are attached as always. I'll try to clean up the last two rooms in post-mastery so you can have a complete demo set aside your own.

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11-07-2018 at 04:51 AM
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Insoluble
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icon Re: Time After Time October 15th Update (+3)  
Double posting here mostly because Delta 2N1E got me thinking hard about rooms with 6 or more time clones. Some of my all time favorite rooms have had this many time clones and I've been trying to think about why I enjoyed those rooms but this one left me feeling somewhat agitated. I really want to like this room since juggling multiple time clones can be a lot of fun. And I do like the room in theory. But in practice I didn't have a good time with it and I'd like to try to vocalize why. Feel free to do whatever you want with that information, and I'll totally understand if you decide to just keep this room as it is.

So here are two rooms I loved with 7 or more time clones.
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What is it about those rooms that makes having 6 or more time clones running around tolerable and even fun? I think it's a couple of things. The first thing is that both those rooms are very minimalist in design. By that I mean the actual puzzle is super focused on one key insight. The entire room focuses on that one insight and you can basically sum it up in a few brief words. 2N1E on the other hand relies on multiple different tricks to get all the plates down. The reason this is somewhat problematic is that if you happen to understand the first part of the room, you can spend a bunch of time figuring it out but then have to re-start everything from scratch when the shoe drops and you realize there were actually multiple puzzles involved and you only planned for the first one.

The second factor is that in both rooms there is somehow a ton of space to play around with and the rooms are structured in such a way that time clones aren't likely to stab each-other or otherwise interfere with each other unless you really want them to. Blocking or interfering with other timelines is strictly optional in both the rooms posted above. And while I ultimately chose to do so in order to optimize, somehow the fact that it was my choice, and thus my fault, made it more tolerable when timeline interference ended up getting me stabbed. In 2N1E on the other hand, you need to block time clones and offset their timelines as part of the solution. Moreover, the way the yellow gate blocks them they also have a tendency to all collect around it and will happily stab each other there if you don't plan around that.

So here are two suggestions I would humbly make for this room. First, try to minimize the places where timelines are altered so that there's less of a likelihood that the player gets the solution but has to rerecord several times due to time clones accidentally killing each other. One option would be to space out the pink pressure plates that the clones have to set off a but more and just provide a bit more space in that entry area in general. Another possibility would be to take that yellow door at (2,6) - (2,8) and just make it a whole lot bigger so that clones don't have to gang up on each other there.

A bigger and harder suggestion is to take this room and split it into two rooms. It kind of wants to be two rooms, one for each of the two general ways that you hold down the plates. I know this may be infeasible given the structure of the hold, and is probably more of a reflection on my personal preference for minimalist puzzles. But I think minimalism really is a good approach to take when you're juggling this many timelines for the reasons I mentioned above.

Again, please feel free to completely ignore this. Partially I'm posting it for myself to justify why I had an unpleasant time with this room when I claim to love time clone puzzles that involve manipulating loads of clones at once.

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11-08-2018 at 04:41 AM
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Chaco
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icon Re: Time After Time (+1)  
After reviewing your demo for Delta 2N1E, I can definitely say you found the tediously complicated anti-aesthetic solution. I'm changing it in the next update to 1) require that *all* the doors are open at the same time, which should make it obvious that your plan won't work but my intended solution will, and 2) widen the bottleneck you talked about so it's easier to get all 6 timeclones to their roaches without them stabbing each other.

I completely agree with your thoughts about rooms with multiple timeclones - it's fun to have a whole bunch of them if their jobs are simple. Thankfully I'm pretty sure Delta 2N1E fits the bill when done properly. ;)

I'll check the rest of the demos later and see if anything else needs changing. Thanks very much for providing them!

EDIT:

I should also mention for completeness' sake (in case anybody missed it) that Epsilon 1N1E got changed in the October 15th update so you can't really record wide horizontal paths in the main part of the room anymore; you have to enter the keg room to create a long enough path so the projection can get to the end of the mirror room. I don't *think* making that area 2 tiles wide breaks anything, so I made it that wide for convenience, but I'll make it 1 wide if I have to.

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[Last edited by Chaco at 11-09-2018 02:23 AM]
11-09-2018 at 02:08 AM
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mauvebutterfly
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icon Re: Time After Time (+2)  
Started over, but I hadn't made it that far anyway.

Comments are for Delta, and one room of Gamma that I found an issue with:

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11-18-2018 at 09:18 AM
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Chaco
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icon Time After Time November 19th Update (0)  
Hi,

Well, I'm still not quite content-complete with the hold yet since real life's been unexpectedly busy for the two weeks *before* Thanksgiving I was planning on using to get the hold complete before the holidays hit.

This update mostly features Delta 2N1E getting slightly modified so it's hopefully more obvious that there's a painless solution that isn't particularly fiddly. It also widens that one bottleneck door in the NW corner so that little procedural element shouldn't be a headache.

I also fixed some orb wiring in Omega 1N1E so as to just make it a little more resilient to any unintended solutions.

I *think* those should be the only changes since the October version, so your solutions to other rooms should be safe.

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11-20-2018 at 03:29 AM
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Chaco
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icon Time After Time November 29th Update (0)  
Here's a small update that makes the hold content-complete: Omega 1E is now filled in. Finally found my old sketchbook and scanner and put them to good use.

As a quick note for posterity and future architects: When making an image floor, make sure you save your .jpg in RGB mode, not grayscale (even if it's a grayscale drawing!). DROD doesn't like grayscale images!

At this point I just want a few people to run through rooms like Theta 2N1E, Omega 1N1E and Omega 2N1E that don't have feedback yet, and I should be ready to submit to Hold Administration in probably a week or so.

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[Last edited by Chaco at 11-29-2018 06:11 PM]
11-29-2018 at 06:10 PM
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Insoluble
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icon Re: Time After Time November 29th Update (+2)  
I dig the artwork. Here are some demos of the rooms you requested along with some thoughts.

Delta 2N1E: Okay, I think my original solution is worth preventing. The new version of this room makes it much more clear what needs to happen. The solution is relatively clean for something involving this many time tokens.

Theta 2N1E: This one can be trivialized pretty easily. I didn't poke around too much to see what the intended solution is though so I have no suggestions as to how to enforce it.

Omega 1N1E: I solved this using an image editor, which is basically the best option for this kind of room. I happen to really like rooms like this a lot. The checkpoints at (18,33) and (34,7) are essentially useless to anyone trying to optimize. I'd suggest moving them to somewhere like (26,6) and (26,24) where the player could potentially use them.

EDIT: Also just realized that the hint scroll is not very color-blind friendly. It may be a good idea to reference the coordinates of the plates in the scroll as well. I'll also point out that the particular choice of colors made me think that the doors at (13,9) (11,9) and (9,9) were a trapdoor gate, room-clear gate, and tar gate respectively until I read the scroll. Not sure if a different choice of colors would avoid that.

Omega 2N1E: This one was somewhat more straightforward than I expected given its position in postmastery, but there's nothing wrong with having a mid-range difficulty room here. I have a sneaking suspicion that the wubba was supposed to do something else though, so I may not be doing what I'm supposed to here. Either way, I had fun with this one.

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[Last edited by Insoluble at 12-04-2018 01:54 PM]
12-04-2018 at 06:24 AM
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Chaco
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icon Time After Time December 6th Update (0)  
Thanks for the feedback! Here's another follow-up update. I recently got done re-playing the hold to make a demo pack for HA submission, and double-checked a few things in the meantime:

--

Alpha 1N: Added a relatively easy new challenge.

Alpha 1E: Added extra bomb to prevent a timeclone standing on (15, 7). Normal solutions should be unaffected.

Alpha 2N1E: Added thin ice by three orbs to enforce visiting them only once, even if hitting them multiple times in different timelines would otherwise be helpful.

Gamma 1N1E: I think I forgot to mention this in a prior update, but scripting region triggers should be correct now.

Theta 2N1E: Added a few trapdoors which should require actually doing the room (exiting through the black door) instead of just killing the brain and walking out.

Omega 1N1E: Added coordinates to the scroll to hopefully make it more colorblind-friendly, and extended the room lighting to make the colored regions 3x2 instead of 1x1.

Omega 2N1E: Changed the final part of the room to more accurately enforce what I had in mind. The room isn't meant to be straightforward; it's meant to be hard and involve advanced tactics, but not be extremely difficult.

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12-07-2018 at 03:55 AM
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mauvebutterfly
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icon Re: Time After Time (+2)  
December 8th:

I've finished playing through the hold, including all secrets and post-mastery.

Comments are for Epsilon to Omega, along with the changes to Alpha and Delta since I last played it. Demos attached.

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12-08-2018 at 03:05 PM
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Chaco
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icon Re: Time After Time (0)  
Thanks very much for your demos and your extensive feedback! I'll try to get a hold update out soon to fix a few problems and add checkpoints in the places you suggested. Here's some point-by-point replies:

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12-08-2018 at 06:56 PM
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Chaco
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icon Time After Time December 9th Update (0)  
A quick update to fix aforementioned minor problems.

Epsilon 1N: Added a force arrow to the brain fork area. Should prevent taking a stick in there and getting back out, since anything that goes in there better have a sword to kill the brain with. (More general forms of the same trick are still possible but I think preventing those would be more trouble than it's worth.)

Theta 2N1E: Added a little toggle count lock in the northwest corner to limit number of times central pressure plate can be toggled. (Other methods of detecting whether a mirror or a temporal projection is on the plate won't work here, but this should do the trick.)

Omega Entrance: Added force arrows and green door to the NE corridor.

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[Last edited by Chaco at 12-10-2018 02:50 AM]
12-10-2018 at 02:48 AM
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Chaco
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icon Re: Time After Time (0)  
Well, after thinking about it for a while, I think I'll wait to submit the hold to Hold Administration until after New Year's, to give time for at least one more person to review the later levels in the hold.

I really don't expect anybody to do any beta testing between now and then, so this is just a notice saying "don't worry about me submitting this too early for you".

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12-20-2018 at 07:37 PM
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bbb
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icon Re: Time After Time (0)  
I'm playing through again. If you wait another week, I'll try to send comments.
01-01-2019 at 05:15 PM
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Chaco
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icon Re: Time After Time (0)  
I'll wait warmly for your comments, sure. :)

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01-01-2019 at 05:24 PM
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bbb
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icon Re: Time After Time (0)  
You should probably add some challenges to the later levels.

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If you want comments about other specific rooms, or other questions about these, ask.
01-02-2019 at 12:21 PM
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Chaco
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Thanks for the comments. Could you post demos of Eta 1E and Omega 2N1E so I can see how you went about them? I wouldn't mind seeing demos for the rest of the rooms either but given your comments I think those are the ones I'd most like to see for solution verification.

For Theta 2N1E, the (23, 5) door is meant to force that first timeclone to take a direct path to the brain. If it weren't there then it would be possible to make an arbitrarily long path which would make the puzzle more easier/degenerate. Something then has to re-open that door later so it might as well be the plate at (7, 14) where the puzzle is basically done.

Omega 1N1E: Sure, I guess I can add that in for convenience. I think this is the only room where the second timeline is recorded without vision of the first and only later combined and synched, so that would help.

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01-02-2019 at 09:06 PM
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icon Re: Time After Time (0)  
quote:
Chaco wrote:
Thanks for the comments. Could you post demos of Eta 1E and Omega 2N1E so I can see how you went about them? I wouldn't mind seeing demos for the rest of the rooms either but given your comments I think those are the ones I'd most like to see for solution verification.


Attached Eta 1E and Theta 2N1E which I think you meant.

quote:
Chaco wrote:
For Theta 2N1E, the (23, 5) door is meant to force that first timeclone to take a direct path to the brain. If it weren't there then it would be possible to make an arbitrarily long path which would make the puzzle more easier/degenerate. Something then has to re-open that door later so it might as well be the plate at (7, 14) where the puzzle is basically done.


Nothing closes the door. You have to kill the brain on the second pass too or you can't continue. I think an optimized solution will still also have the door open.

quote:
Chaco wrote:
Omega 1N1E: Sure, I guess I can add that in for convenience. I think this is the only room where the second timeline is recorded without vision of the first and only later combined and synched, so that would help.


Sounds good.
01-03-2019 at 04:33 PM
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Chaco
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icon Re: Time After Time (0)  
OK, those demos helped a lot, thanks.

For Theta 2N1E (which I did mean, oops) I see what happened. I didn't consider that you could wait that long before hitting the fuse - I always just waited a couple of turns before hitting the fuse which meant that the bomb did wind up activating the "bad orb" in the final timeline and get re-opened. Your solution is still basically the intended one, though, so I don't think I need to change anything.

Eta 1E is interesting; it contains several steps of my solution but in a different order. It still skips a step I want to enforce though, which is (potential solution spoilers?)

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I think I have an idea for how to change the room to enforce this, and block both yours and Insoluble's solutions, so I'll work on that today.

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[Last edited by Chaco at 01-03-2019 08:30 PM]
01-03-2019 at 08:30 PM
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icon Time After Time January 3rd Update (0)  
Alright, new version of the hold updated. Omega 1N1E has the convenience arrow added.

The main feature is a slightly changed Eta 1E, with new constraints on what order you can record the timeclones, and a bit of reconfiguration of various yellow doors and the location of the red door. The room is a bit more complex-looking now, but I think the fact that it's more constrained now might actually make it a bit easier to figure out what to do? It also nicely takes out a few fiddly make-work parts of the original room.

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01-03-2019 at 09:33 PM
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mauvebutterfly
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icon Re: Time After Time (0)  
I replayed Epsilon 1N, Theta 2N1E, and Omega Entrance. Those seemed to be the three main changes you made based on what I read here.


I included my demo pack again, which might duplicate all the other demos, but it will have the new rooms as well. I don't think I broke anything though, so you probably don't need to check them.


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01-04-2019 at 11:56 AM
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icon Time After Time will be submitted (soon) NOW! (+1)  
OK, now that I'm back from my trip I've taken another look at the project.

As far as I can tell there aren't any other currently outstanding changes that I wanted to make. Epsilon 1N is still breakable by careful timeclone pushing to mess with the eastern corridor but I think that's more of a headache than just doing the room properly so I'm going to leave that in.

I will submit the hold to the Hold Administrators in 3 days, on February 5th, unless something else crops up and there's something important to fix.

Thanks for all your feedback and your patience during the development process! I'd like to get this one submitted and move onto the next project.

EDIT: OK, it's sent in now!

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[Last edited by Chaco at 02-06-2019 01:32 AM]
02-02-2019 at 06:38 PM
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