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Romain673
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icon Swarm of monsters (+2)  
Hello world,
I would like some testing for my actual hold.

I planned to do a hole extrelely hard where sometimes some specific move are needed. But since I'm not good at the game, i don't know if they are really difficult or not.

The level are not some puzzle game, it's a level where i give you too much ennemies, and some tools for manage them. After, i let you completely free to what you want to do with them.
But there is an efficient amount of ennemies for that you need to test the tools, and decide of what tools you take, and what tools you doesn't take.
Or at least, it's the goal of the hole.

I would like some review and some specific point :
- for difficulty : does a hard level can be fun ?
- is the lobby a good idea ?
- is the tricky level on the mass of 'normal' level nice ? Or it's just not fun to think about a problem and just see that it wasn't at all what you needed to do ?
Click here to view the secret text

- does shortcuts for changing the entrance of a level is a good idea ?Or it just add some element to the level who aren't needed ?
- Again on Snow 2E, does the docorative ennemies on the middle are fine ?
- And for finish, I have some problem with the level 4 : crabs or tar : i don't arrive to find a way to build a level with them : stalling (=find a situation where you are free to do want you want without penality (=kill somme ennemies)) is too simple.
I counter that by the 'Fluff vent' on Snow level, and by giant level on Queen level (and the IA of Roaches are done for not let the player stall when they are a lot).
So if you have any ideas for them, i will take them :P


(I'm French, so you can answer me in French if you prefer :P)

Change log :
8-22 : snow done, half of queens done
8-24 : second half of queens done
8-24 : minor change
8-26 : lobby level+2~3levels of golems done
8-27 : Queens 2N, Snow 2E, and 5 levels of golems done
8-31 : Decoration last level, Entrance Queens, Lobby snow, Secret Queens done.
9-05 : Entrance Snow, Snow 2E more hard, changing color of Queens, and 1E, 1W, 2W of Triple
9-06 : Added Triple 1S1E, balance Triple 2W (and Triple 1S and Triple 1N who need change)
9-08 : Added Triple 1N1W, Triple 1N, and Triple 2N.
9-09 : Added Queens 1N1W and Triple 1S1W (not a good result, but a good idea, i will perhaps change it later)
9-10 : Added Triple 2E
9-18 : Changed Triple 2W to his initial difficulty (and finally finished it :D), Changed completely Snow 1N1W, and removed a bug for Queens 1N1W.
9-19 : Added difficulty to Triple 1S, Golem 2S1E done (need change for give illusion it is possible 'normally)
9-20 : Triple 2S (last level of Triple) at a version that i like. Need improvement.
9-21 : Triple 1S1W changed (would like feedback here)
9-26 : Triple secret done, Golems 2S2E and Lobby snow changed
9-27 : Queens 1N1E finished, Queens secret changed.
10-1 : added difficulty to Triple 1S1W two times, changed entrance of Lobby
10-9 : Final version, many minor changes and bug resolved.
10-21 : Minor changes : Secret Queens, Snow 1E, Golem Secret, Golem 2E2S, Scroll Golem.
11-13 : Added the challenge : Golems 1S, Queens 1N, Queens Entrance, Snow 1E, Snow 2E, Triple 1E, Triple 1N1W, Triple 2W, Lobby Entrance / Changed completely Snow 1S2E, Queens 2E, Queens 1N1E.

Actually : 100%

[Last edited by Romain673 at 11-13-2017 04:59 PM]
08-22-2017 at 05:22 PM
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Scattercatt
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icon Re: Swarm of monsters (+3)  
Off the bat, there are a lot of grammatical issues, which is understandable. I myself am not very good with grammar either so I will not be going over that.

Lobby:
An interesting start for sure. I like that you surround the entrances with the corresponding element to the level it leads to. One thing I will say though is that the doors leading to the south and west become impossible to open from the other side once the player enters the rooms beyond them. I would recommend putting an orb or something to open the door if the player wants to get back to the lobby.

Queens
I started off with Queens since I (Personally) hate the fluff element. I definitely like the idea of being given small amounts of resources to take out a lot of monsters, but I have to ask if you have tested these rooms yourself, because these rooms seem near impossible. I could be just bad at this style of room, but I really couldn't find a way to solve 1S1W, 1S, or 2S. I also feel like some of the doors are just flat out pointless and their placement doesn't make much sense. For example, in room 1S1W, the orb at (7,18) seems completely useless.
Like I said, your idea for this hold is awesome, but right now it doesn't seem playable (for me at least. I could just be bad). If you can, send me some demos of these rooms so i can see how they are done.
I decided to stop here, but I see a lot of potential for this hold. I will come back later and check out new updates.
08-24-2017 at 01:12 AM
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Romain673
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icon Re: Swarm of monsters (+1)  
Hello,
Just updated with what I have done recently (few things).

Good point for the lobby, even if the orb was only for testing, and if you can still manage to reach the middle of the lobby, I haven't think to it. I have changed it.


And yes i tested everything and everything is possible.
In fact, I just put randomly each orb and some wall, and then I tested the level for knowing how many ennemies I needed to remove for being able to finish the level.
So some orb are actually useless, I don't really remember if the orb you mentionned was usefull or not for me, but if yes, it was at the end.
Tomorrow, I will test again all my level for adding many hints to them. But the hold could be not interresting if someone read directly all the hint :/ I will see what I do.


Actually, if someone want the difficulty (for me) of the hold :
Snow :
Entrance, 1E1N : hard
1E1S, 2E1S, 2E : medium
1E : easy

Queens :
1N, 1E, 1N2E : hard
1N1E, 2E : easy
2N : not tested, not fan of the result at this moment


(And I change the entrance of the Queen, it is really better now, so 1S1W is now 1N, 1S is now 1E1N, and 2S is 1E)

[Last edited by Romain673 at 08-24-2017 02:27 AM]
08-24-2017 at 02:22 AM
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Insoluble
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icon Re: Swarm of monsters (0)  
I have attached demos of the rooms I played. I only played through Snow. The stairs in Lobby: 1N end the hold instead of leading to that level.

Snow I think the difficulty is "6 brains" or "6.5 brains". I am not a very good judge of difficulty for this kind of hold though. I like the passages that let me cross the room without solving it. This makes it possible to chose where I want to enter each room. I like being able to decide where to enter since this takes some thinking. The decorations in the middle of 2E are fine. These are not distracting.

These rooms are set up in a way that tends to make strings of puffs that are impossible to pass if you are not careful to set things up properly. In some rooms (The entrance, and 1S1E for example) this makes for an interesting puzzle. in those two rooms I had fun finding ways to create 2x2 blocks of fluff or distract some puffs so that I could get by later. In some rooms (1N1E and 2E for example) there were so many puff generators that I felt like I was just guessing most of the time instead of thinking my way through.

Backtracking problem: In 1S1E if you leave by the southeast green door, at (37,29) or (37,30), you are stuck and will have to re-load. This can be fixed by linking the northeast green door to the tunnel at (35,6).

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08-24-2017 at 04:13 AM
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Romain673
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icon Re: Swarm of monsters (0)  
quote:
If you can, send me some demos of these rooms so i can see how they are done.
There we go.

Ty for your review Insoluble, i will change some room that you found not fun soon and I changed the few other things you mentionned.

(and Queens 1N1E was surpisingly hard, take a long time to finish again this level)

[Last edited by Romain673 at 08-24-2017 06:44 PM]
08-24-2017 at 06:36 PM
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Romain673
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Hi again,
I just changed Queens 2N and Snow 2E (link on first post) :
- Snow 2E is more focalised on a giant area in the middle for let more liberty about puffs. Finish it on first try, so perhaps i should add more ennemies at the start.
- Queens 2N is focalised on create roaches on every side of the map, but a few amount, so it really change compared to other levels. I really like it since it stay challenging.

And I created 5 levels of golems since I got one idea by forcing the player to stay on a small area, so he need to manage the position of golems. But unfortunatly, I think that some level need more guessing than thinking :(
I really want a review of this idea and these level.


And small question, Can I let some 'error' on y final hold ? Like a broken wall on a corner who lead to nothing ?

[Last edited by Romain673 at 08-26-2017 10:21 PM]
08-26-2017 at 10:15 PM
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Nuntar
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icon Re: Swarm of monsters (+1)  
Link to HA rules. This (in particular the section "What makes a hold 'good' or 'bad'?") delineates the kinds of things that will block a hold from being promoted.

Minor errors, like a broken wall that doesn't lead anywhere, aren't a blocking issue. I'm not sure whether you mean an interior wall corner, or an actual corner of the room. If you have a broken wall on a room edge that doesn't lead to the next room, that's still not a blocking issue, but it is annoying to the player, so probably best avoided.

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08-27-2017 at 12:12 AM
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Romain673
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icon Re: Swarm of monsters (0)  
Yes, I already read that, but I wanted someone to confirm.
The wall I want to put are not reachable, so it's fine. It hide more the real secret room.
Ty for your answer.
08-27-2017 at 12:47 AM
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Romain673
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icon Re: Swarm of monsters (0)  
Small question :
Have you any hold where the goal is to kill the Queens, and who use Puffs and Queens/Roaches ? Or some ideas ?
I want to see what i can do with them.
I don't arrive to be pleased with a level with both of these units.

You can check Triple 1N and Triple 1S (levels not balanced) where I just find that these units haven't a good synergy.

[Last edited by Romain673 at 09-06-2017 02:28 AM]
09-06-2017 at 12:20 AM
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Romain673
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Hi again world !
Today, can I have your impression on 'Triple 1N' and 'Triple 2N' (both level are possible) ?
I don't think there is enough control of what will do the puffs just because they take aggro of Roaches :(

And for anyone who haven't tested Triple (everybody ? O:-) there is actually 6 levels (/12~13) playable there : 1E, 2E, 1W, 1W1S, 1N, 2N. And 1W1N who need some change.

(even if I think that both of these level need more difficulty, except if I finally want a more 'simple' hold, but I already added too much difficulty on some level who limit a lot the liberty, like Snow 1E1N who wasn't fun for Insoluble)

[Last edited by Romain673 at 09-08-2017 03:07 AM]
09-08-2017 at 03:01 AM
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Romain673
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icon Re: Swarm of monsters (0)  
I will insist, but I have nearly finished all the levels. So if I want to create a new level, I need to erase one other. And i didn't get any feedback on my two last level :/

I would like one player to check (classed by priority) :
- Golems 1S, Golems 1E, Golems 2S1E
- Snow 1N1E
- Triple 1E


And if possible, even if it's less important :
- Golems entrance, Golems 2E
- Triple 1W
- Queens 1N1W
- others level of Triple
- Snow 2E

I want to create different type of level on Golems (like Golems 2S1E) but i need to erase one of my other level to do that, so if there is a level not fun, i will remove it.
Thanks :P

[Last edited by Romain673 at 10-01-2017 05:28 PM]
09-21-2017 at 03:20 AM
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Romain673
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icon Re: Swarm of monsters (0)  
So now, everything is ready.

I would like someone who can tell me the fault of the hold (or change them and export it).
Check : scrolls, describe of the level (start and end).

[and I still would like some review of specific level on last post]

And I have some questions :
- I planned (after the submission) to create the same hold with less ennemies. I would put the link on the subject of the submission.
It would let some players to have fun on these levels with less optimisation required.
Is it good ? Any advice ?
- Just before I submit, I will finish my hold completely for be sure that everything is fine. So I will have all demo.
Should I give the global demo to everybody or not ?


(If I have no answer, I think I will submit in about one week)

[Last edited by Romain673 at 10-01-2017 05:31 PM]
10-01-2017 at 05:26 PM
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Insoluble
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icon Re: Swarm of monsters (0)  
Sorry! I meant to get back to testing this earlier. I will try to take a look at some of the new rooms tonight.

quote:
Romain673 wrote:
And I have some questions :
- I planned (after the submission) to create the same hold with less ennemies. I would put the link on the subject of the submission.
It would let some players to have fun on these levels with less optimisation required.
Is it good ? Any advice ?
- Just before I submit, I will finish my hold completely for be sure that everything is fine. So I will have all demo.
Should I give the global demo to everybody or not ?



First question: This has been done before. Larrymurk has released "SSSlitherin" and "SSSlitherin Expert", as well as three versions of "Master Locks". As long as the rooms are all different in some way it should be fine. The current hold is pretty difficult, so I would enjoy it if an easier version existed too.
http://forum.caravelgames.com/holds.php?arch=larrymurk


There is no need for you to post a demo pack for everyone to download. Once you submit your hold to the HAs, you will have an option to upload a demo pack that only they can see. You absolutely do want to upload demos for the HAs to see. If you want to you can upload a demo pack that anyone could download. Rheb did this for the hold "Troshian Grounds" for instance.
http://forum.caravelgames.com/viewtopic.php?TopicID=39304
I believe he only did this because the hold is extremely precise and he believed that some people may enjoy watching demos more than playing the hold. It is pretty rare to do this though.

It is strongly encouraged to wait until at least one beta tester has completed or mostly completed the hold. I will try to get through as much as I can tonight!

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10-10-2017 at 05:08 PM
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Insoluble
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icon Re: Swarm of monsters (0)  
I think you have already sent this to HA, but I played through a bit more and might suggest some minor changes.

I played through Golems. It looks like you had intended to add some secret rooms or something like that along the outside. There are crumbly walls in 2S2E and an inaccessible green door in 2E that really make it seem as though I'm supposed to be able to reach some outer ring of rooms but they do not appear there in the editor.

The entrance room was one of the hardest on the level, but I thought the difficulty was for the most part. Many of the rooms had tricks to them that you could reason out. 2S2E for instance becomes much more manageable once you realize that you can use little side corridors for good use as long as you make sure to avoid letting golems get stuck to the east of column 8. In 2S1E I might be doing something you had not intended, but you can push golems into the pit left by the trapdoor to make the early stage of the room much more manageable. I liked the secret room access in 1E very much, though I found the secret room to be the easiest on the level due to the fact that everything pretty much dies on hot tiles without me having to think much about it. It was a fun room though.

Things that i would recommend: Add at least one or two checkpoints to 1S1E. Consider removing the 2-wide walls that act as obstacles in 2S2E. The do not make the room more difficult or add to it any way and are a bit annoying.

I tried to play through a bit of Queens, but the horde management skill required is pretty high. This level definitely felt more difficult than the other two. I'll give it another go soon though.

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10-21-2017 at 05:20 AM
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Romain673
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icon Re: Swarm of monsters (0)  
Yes, I already sended it :/

I say at the start (one time) there is only one secret room per level. Since I have add some obvious green door, I wanted to create some fake 'secret room position'.
Tell me if I should remove them.

2S1E was intented, I have 3 levels based only on one simple trick, but I tried to let the player think it can be possible without a trick.
Same, even if I don't think I will change them now, tell me if it's a good idea to have ~10% of level with a trick or if it's just unfun when you discover this trick.

And for the secret I tried a lot with 1 more golem instead of the green wall, it seemed impossible, but I just finished it. Since it's a secret level, I will add it. But the difficulty of the room increased a lot.


And thanks for your review, I will change some things.

[Last edited by Romain673 at 10-21-2017 04:47 PM]
10-21-2017 at 04:36 PM
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Insoluble
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quote:
Romain673 wrote:
I say at the start (one time) there is only one secret room per level. Since I have add some obvious green door, I wanted to create some fake 'secret room position'.
Tell me if I should remove them.

No need to remove them! I had just forgotten that you only have one secret per level. I think it's fine to have it there. I do like the way you get to the secret in this level by solving the room next to it in a more efficient way.

quote:
Romain673 wrote:
2S1E was intented, I have 3 levels based only on one simple trick, but I tried to let the player think it can be possible without a trick.
Same, even if I don't think I will change them now, tell me if it's a good idea to have ~10% of level with a trick or if it's just unfun when you discover this trick.

I like the rooms that have tricks to them. They have been my favorite rooms so far.

I tried the Queens level again and did not get very far with it sorry.

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10-22-2017 at 02:18 AM
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Romain673
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Did you think I should reduce difficulty of Queens ?
It can discourage some players.


(and there is still a forth level if you want try it)

Perhaps i should do an other hold with only these Queens since I think I'm really good with them.


Or I could create a copy of the level Queens : one easy and one hard. And ask to not count the 'easy level' for the ranking of the hold if it's possible (I don't really know how it work).

And if it's impossible, use a script for doing that. But does players would like to do the hard version if they can do the easy version instead...?

[Last edited by Romain673 at 10-22-2017 02:45 AM]
10-22-2017 at 02:34 AM
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Dragon Fogel
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icon Re: Swarm of monsters (0)  
I went through the roach queen level. Here are my demos.

I found the level pretty repetitive for the most part, honestly. Most rooms fell into a pattern of "pick an entrance, chase down what queens I can early, hit useful orbs" and then once I actually got a good setup going the room was manageable but slow, with a lot of trial-and-error to figure out how to actually finish the rougher parts.

By far the worst room was 1N1E. But that was less that it deviated from the pattern than because so few starting approaches were actually productive. Then my first winning attempt hit three of the orbs, so I had to back up to access the secret and that process was more trial and error.

Speaking of the secret, um, I think I broke it without even trying. You should definitely look at that demo.

Also, in 2N, the queen surrounded by firetraps won't lay any eggs.

I thought the overall difficulty wasn't unreasonable for this sort of level, but I got pretty worn out playing it due to how similar most of the rooms were.
10-22-2017 at 07:59 AM
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Romain673
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Yeah, the secret is one of the other 'trick' level, but you found the trick too easily since I added recently more monsters to the up part. Guess I will just remove or change this part.

For all the level, you did a different approach than me except for 1N1E.


Yes for 2N, saw it when I finished to test the level, and the difficulty was fine for me, so i let everything.

I will at least change 1N1E and trying to do something really different.
All this 5 level have no new idea : Entrance, 1N, 1N1E, 1E, and 2E.


Thank for your feedback ! :)

[Last edited by Romain673 at 10-22-2017 05:48 PM]
10-22-2017 at 05:47 PM
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icon Re: Swarm of monsters (0)  
I didn't see that you had sent this to the HA already.

Just letting you know that I'm testing the hold now. I've completed Golems and Snow, and have comments about every room, but I guess it's a bit late for that. I'll still upload them here when I finish the other two levels (probably tomorrow.)

I've also been writing down corrected versions of all text in the hold as I come across them. This is mostly grammatical fixes to intro/exit text, and some fixes to scrolls. Up to you if you want to use these edits.

I'll also upload a set of demos here for you to look at once I have all my comments done.

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10-25-2017 at 04:14 PM
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Should have just posted what I had last night. Looks like I'm giving up on this hold. I enjoyed the golem level a lot, but the snow level felt like guess-and-check for every room, and the roach queen level is feeling like more of the same. I'm just not interested in playing through them any more.

For what it's worth, I don't play with unlimited undo, which makes a lot of your rooms a lot more unpleasant than they otherwise would be.

As far as grammar/spelling fixes go, I wrote down how I would fix them for each scroll that I came across.

Click here to view the secret text


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10-26-2017 at 11:13 AM
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Romain673
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icon Re: Swarm of monsters (0)  
What is really interresting when I read you all, is putting too many difficulty is bad for the majority of levels, even if it was the base idea of the hold.
And create a 'random level' is really more fast than a 'difficult level'.

Secret of golems is an excellent example, Insoluble enjoyed it when it was easy but 'mauvebutterfly' hated it when I just added one more golem who limit a lot what you can do with the room.

-

And for you specific post mauvebutterfly, I saw another thing, the community have (i guess on general) more experience than me with tools like a staff, a potion of speed, etc... So when 1N1E and 1S was two really hard room for me, it was easy for you.

And thanks for the scroll and the review, I will change it.


And btw, the triple level is between golem and snow for difficulty, so I guess it would be more fun for you.

[Last edited by Romain673 at 10-26-2017 03:30 PM]
10-26-2017 at 03:29 PM
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Can you tell me where I should put my questions about script ?

I will change many small things on this level, like putting difficulty on challenge instead on the room.

I would like to remove an orb, is it possible ? Even by creating a green closed door on it (who are impossible without script), the orb stay present.

-

And is there something else to do with challenge except by create a 'Challenge completed' ? For the website or idk ?

[Last edited by Romain673 at 11-07-2017 11:41 PM]
11-07-2017 at 11:35 PM
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Questions about script can go in the thread relevant to your hold (like, here) or in a new thread saying "hey, how do I do this script thing?" Check the various existing threads on how to script things first to make sure you're not asking a question one of those already answered, though, please.

I might be mistaken since I don't have the game in front of me right now, but I suspect you may be able to get rid of an orb by Building a Broken Orb over it and then attacking the tile. If that's possible, then it should kill the orb without activating it. In general, though, if there's an orb you only want to be usable once you should just make it a cracked orb to begin with.

I'm not sure what other thing you want to do with challenges? If your script awards the player with a challenge and your hold gets added to the Holds board then they'll be tracked just like high scores are.

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11-08-2017 at 12:17 AM
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Romain673
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Ok ok ty.
The challenge are tracked automatically, so i have nothing to do.
11-08-2017 at 01:36 AM
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mauvebutterfly
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Building pit under an orb should get rid of it too, although you'll get the falling sound.

Briar naturally eats orbs without activating them and doesn't require any scripting.

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11-08-2017 at 02:05 AM
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Romain673
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Many modifications today :
- Changed completely Snow 1S2E
- Added Challenge (the tunnel) to Snow 1E, so it require less optimisation without it

- Changed completely Queens 2E and Queens 1N1E
- Added challenge for Queens Entrance, Queens 1N so they are both more easy without the challenge (I would like a review of the script of Entrance for the idea, and for the english word who doesn't match)
- Changed secret, normally it's fine now

- Added challenge to Golem 1S who add difficulty to it

- Added challenge to Triple 2W and Triple 1N1W for reduce difficulty
- Added challenge to Triple 1E who add difficulty

- Added a little script for Entrance on the lobby

And unfortunatly, i still got no review of Triple level, so i don't know what level i should change, what level i should add a challenge who add difficulty to a level, and what level i should add a challenge who reduce difficulty on it.


And i would like some advice of how i use the script for the challenge. I seem to use many things who aren't usefull (like a label end, the command 'end', the 'wait 9999 turns' who can be better i guess, etc). The script "Challenge T-1N1W" is the most easy to understand.

[Last edited by Romain673 at 11-13-2017 05:08 PM]
11-13-2017 at 04:56 PM
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