uncopy2002
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Inspired by this topic: http://forum.caravelgames.com/viewtopic.php?TopicID=30324


So, I was messing around with the editor and put together some rooms. Here are two riddles that I came up with as a result:



1. I made a pair of rooms that look exactly the same to a player. They're both solvable, but there is no solution that works for both rooms.

For both rooms, the players enters on the same tile, and exits on the same tile too.

No scripting or custom NPCs are involved. The two rooms are not connected, nor do they need other rooms to function; they will work by themselves alone. No Halph/Slayer is involved. No stairs are involved either.

Is it possible to make such a twin room? If so, what is the minimum size for each of the room?


EDIT: To clarify a bit, "look exactly the same" means "without trying the room": the player can look at the room, left click to see orb/plate connections, right click to see movement order and tile information (e.g secret walls, and image floor/pit/wall/overhead). The player can even use puzzle mode (i.e vision token on). You just can't make any moves.


2. What is the least number of elements (basically everything except floor tiles) required to create a situation where in a particular turn, walking into every direction except waiting (and turning) will result in Beethro being killed?

Beethro starts from the middle of the room. Again, no scripting is involved. Also, Beethro is required to be able to move in all 8 directions.

EDIT: No copy-pasting on editor to create impossible placement is involved, because that makes the number lower.



Please put your answers in secret tags.

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[Last edited by uncopy2002 at 04-13-2016 08:13 PM]

Doom
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My first ideas:

#1

#2

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[Last edited by Doom at 04-13-2016 05:16 PM]

uncopy2002
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Doom wrote:
My first ideas:

#1

Click here to view the secret text

×This is assuming that other rooms can exist in addition to the twin rooms. Which I don't think was explicitly disallowed (yet).

The rooms have two exits. In each twin room a different exit is blocked in the adjacent room. Room size won't even matter then, you can have it as small as you like.

edit: You don't even need other rooms. Just put stairs in the room that lead to different locations in each of the twin rooms.

#2

Click here to view the secret text

×It's possible to place a level entrance on top of a briar root (with copy/paste). This meets the requirements with nothing else in the room.

#1
The rooms work by themselves, they don't need other rooms to function.

EDIT: Ouch, so I should also ban the use of stairs.

#2


(Not secret-tagged for things that aren't considered as a spoiler.)

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[Last edited by uncopy2002 at 04-13-2016 08:12 PM]

Red-XIII
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My ideas:

1#


2#



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[Last edited by Red-XIII at 04-13-2016 05:28 PM]

uncopy2002
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Red-XIII wrote:
My ideas:

1#

Click here to view the secret text

× Use only a roach and a serpent, but in room A the roach moves first, in room B the roach moves after the snake. You could place them in such a way that since the roach moves first, it changes the behaviour of the snake, and vice versa.

2#

Click here to view the secret text

× I guess the easiest way is to use a pressure plate that actives 8 firetrap surrounding you, so you can only wait. In this case it would be 9 elements right?
On the other hand, you could do it with guards, though I can't try it now (seeing the least number of guards required).
I'm pretty sure there are other ways though.

EDIT: I just read that your solution is 2, so I don't think guards is the solution

#1
You can view movement order of monsters. Please see the "EDIT" just above #2 on the first topic.

kieranmillar
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Another solution for #2


And an even better solution for #2

kieranmillar
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I think I've got #1.


Edit: nope. Slayer is banned in the OP and I missed it.

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[Last edited by kieranmillar at 04-13-2016 06:35 PM]

uncopy2002
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kieranmillar wrote:
Another solution for #2

Click here to view the secret text

×Beethro starts on a dagger token, and there are bombs in the 8 surrounding squares (or an extra tile away if he has to be able to move)

And an even better solution for #2

Click here to view the secret text

×1 element, there are active fire traps in the 8 surrounding squares, no PP needed!

Umm, when I refer to the number of elements it's not the number of unique elements. So if you use 8 roaches that counts as 8, not 1.

hyperme
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Obviously wrong answer to #1 because it ignores the spirit of the question:



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Insoluble
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Just a thought for #1 not a full solution because I don't have a DROD computer handy.



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[Last edited by Insoluble at 04-13-2016 06:52 PM]

Dragon Fogel
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Think I've got something for #1.

uncopy2002
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Dragon Fogel wrote:
Think I've got something for #1.

Click here to view the secret text

×The player starts on a weapon token on oremites or shallow water.

Since the player starts on the weapon token, it changes to a sword and you don't know what it was before. Since the player is disarmed, you can't see what weapon they currently have.

That'd work. But it's not the intended solution, besides it won't work if you're viewing the room from other places, like minimap, restore screen, or editor. My solution has no problems on these circumstances too.

Doom
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Another idea for #1:

uncopy2002
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Doom wrote:
Another idea for #1:

Click here to view the secret text

×
Put disabled force arrows on top of a pair of pressure plates.

In one room, both pp's activate the arrow on the other pp.

In the other room one pp doesn't do anything.

In both rooms clicking either pp highlights the other. Because even if the clicked pp in the second room doesn't do anything, you still get a highlight for what affects the clicked arrow. You can use this desync to enforce different solutions

Nice, you got the lynchpin. But there's still a catch:

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[Last edited by uncopy2002 at 04-13-2016 07:35 PM]

uncopy2002
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File: degenerateroom.gif (54.1 KB)
Downloaded 327 times.
License: Public Domain

Okay, so since some times has passed I guess I should post my solution.

#1


#2

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[Last edited by uncopy2002 at 04-15-2016 12:45 PM]

Doom
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File: trail.jpg (42.2 KB)
Downloaded 290 times.
License: Public Domain

So I was playing with #2 a little more and wanted to share this because it's kind of silly. Whether it's valid or not depends on your interpretation of the rules.

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[Last edited by Doom at 04-15-2016 02:59 PM]

disoriented
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I feel that #1 is due to a bug. The game should clearly highlight arrows differently from entire squares.

#2 is survivable if both Beethro and the timeclone move off the trapdoor on the same turn.

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uncopy2002
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disoriented wrote:
I feel that #1 is due to a bug. The game should clearly highlight arrows differently from entire squares.

#2 is survivable if both Beethro and the timeclone move off the trapdoor on the same turn.

For #2, you can't actually - the time clone will be dropped at once once Beethro steps off from it. This happens immediately, even before the time clone's turn, unlike bridge/platform dropping, which happens at post-turn processing.

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[Last edited by uncopy2002 at 04-15-2016 06:02 PM]

disoriented
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Ah okay. But not if Beethro is disarmed, right?

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uncopy2002
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disoriented wrote:
Ah okay. But not if Beethro is disarmed, right?

Yes, since disarmed Beethro don't drop trapdoors.

Wield dagger would be another issue, though, because of the body-kill status - Beethro and a time clone on the same time will kill each other if they don't walk away from each other immediately.

(This also applies to some player roles.)