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Caravel Forum : DROD Boards : Architecture : Preferred Placement for Challenge Scrolls
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mauvebutterfly
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icon Preferred Placement for Challenge Scrolls (0)  
I'm currently working on my first hold and I had a question regarding challenge scrolls.

I noticed that in the The Second Sky hold sometimes the challenge scrolls are immediately accessible, and sometimes they are gated off with a green room-clear gate. Is there a preferred method among the community?

I personally find it annoying to have to clear a room to read the scroll, and then restart the room to attempt the challenge, so my preference is to have the scrolls available for reading immediately.

On the other hand, I made a room where attempting the challenge would effectively change the room to the extent that the player wouldn't ever actually attempt to solve the original puzzle.

Does the community prefer I just lay out the scrolls immediately, or that I examine it on a case-by-case basis? Once I get to the beta-testing stage (probably going to be a year or two if I'm honest with myself) I guess this is also something I should ask for an opinion on from the testers.

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106th Skywatcher
03-29-2016 at 02:39 PM
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Someone Else
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icon Re: Preferred Placement for Challenge Scrolls (+3)  
In my opinion, challenges basically fall into two categories:
1) Solving the room, but harder. Don't use the alcove. Use one fewer mimic potion. That sort of thing. These, because they only affect the difficulty of the room, should be available immediately. Solving this challenge is original solution+
2) Solving the room in a convoluted way. Keep that goblin alive. Don't trap any roaches on force arrows. Etc. These, because it's the same room with an added twist, I think should be left behind a green door. Solving this challenge is alternate solution

If revealing what the challenge is would make the original solution irrelevant, definitely hide it. It's mostly a case-by-case thing, though, so use your best judgment.

And if I'm being entirely honest, I usually beat every room 3 or 4 times anyway to optimize it, so I don't mind not seeing the challenge right away. Other people might feel differently.

[Last edited by Someone Else at 03-29-2016 03:32 PM]
03-29-2016 at 03:31 PM
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Nuntar
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icon Re: Preferred Placement for Challenge Scrolls (+7)  
In adding challenges to the other official holds, I've put them out in the open with three exceptions:

(1) A scroll in the main area could break old demos. This is mainly the case in rooms with brained monsters or serpents. This wouldn't be a problem for new holds, of course -- but a scroll could still introduce unintended solutions.

(2) Merely describing the challenge would reveal a key component of the main solution.

(3) Rooms with a trivial US where the challenge is "don't do it that way". Again, not a problem for new holds, as you would be more likely to remove the US altogether.

Honestly, I think TSS's way of hiding challenge scrolls was a first-time mistake that we've moved on from, like the way it was thought okay to have a level of hidden things under tar in KDD. If none of the above reasons apply, then hiding the challenge scroll is an unnecessary annoyance to players. I haven't discussed this point with the dev team, so this is not an official opinion.

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50th Skywatcher
03-29-2016 at 03:45 PM
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Dragon Fogel
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icon Re: Preferred Placement for Challenge Scrolls (+2)  
Another case to consider is if a scripted event happens in the room and the challenge somehow involves that event (e.g., the Critic challenge in the Oubliette). In that case, you might not want to reveal the challenge right away in order to avoid spoiling the event.

There's also the approach of setting a room up so that you have to complete the room in a harder way in order to access a scroll, and awarding the challenge once the player steps on it. This can be fun to play around with.
03-29-2016 at 04:46 PM
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mauvebutterfly
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icon Re: Preferred Placement for Challenge Scrolls (0)  
Wow, high-quality feedback immediately, in a lot of detail. Thanks a lot all of you.

I knew about serpents, but didn't realize scrolls were treated as obstacles by brains. Suddenly all the "In the next room..." challenges that started popping up towards the end of King Dugan's Dungeon make a lot more sense. I had always wondered why those weren't just put in the entrance of their room like most of the other challenge scrolls had been.

Also, considering how negatively I react to scrolls hidden behind green doors, and how positively I've reacted the few times I managed to read a difficult to access scroll (there's one early in KDD if I recall correctly) I may try to use the "Congrats for reading this scroll" type of challenge where possible.

Thanks again for elaborating so much on your answers.

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106th Skywatcher
03-30-2016 at 10:43 AM
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