ErikH2000
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These are unofficial musings from a guy on the outside. Don't let me imply that something is underway.

In my opinion, great as DROD is, I feel like the game has hit a level of maturity that gives it diminishing returns for sequels and other improvements. In addition, the chasm between satisfying advanced players and intriguing new players is so far apart, that it's become exceedingly difficult for one game to do both. The Second Sky was a beautiful logical extreme in doing right by the vets. But we send new players to the older games (JtRH or GatEB) like we send 6-year-olds to checkers when they pester us to explain chess.

So I believe that Caravel should release a new game that is not DROD. (And of course, I'm aware that DROD:RPG is out there.) If Valve stayed focused on Half-Life, it would have never made Portal. If PopCap stuck with Bejeweled, it would have never made Plants vs Zombies.

You may or may not agree with my premise. But accepting for the moment the idea of Caravel releasing a new non-DROD game, what should it be? Of course, great game ideas don't come as simply as writing a paragraph summary of the game. So maybe it is better to ask, what attributes should it have?

-Erik

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skell
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Tactic DROD is the most logical step for a new DROD game, obviously .

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ErikH2000
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I'll give my answer to my own question.

Marketing/business considerations:
* Written on one of the big engines, e.g. Unity, Unreal, for easy cross-platform support of current and future platforms.
* Mobile and console friendly.
* The title of the game is simple and interesting. ("DROD"... what? "DROD RPG"... double-what-what? And this is SO my fault.)
* The screenshots make you go "what is that? it looks different and cool!"
* Abandon the "pack everything into one game" mentality. Shorter play length, more DLC, sequels. I say this for practical reasons--easier to ship a smaller game.

General:
* Keep the stepping mechanic. It's a solid gameplay element, Caravel does it well, and it defines a nice common feel.
* Keep the story, but jeez, don't let it get so complicated, e.g. TSS. New players won't get it or will feel annoyed that they don't care about events and characters unfamiliar to them.
* Don't bring in DROD elements, (e.g. pressure plates, evil eyes, whatever) just to tie back to DROD games. Assume the player doesn't care about DROD and has never played it.
* Animation should be designed from the beginning to look fantastic with the stepping mechanic. More use of motion trails, settling animation.
* Tutorials should all be play as you go. It might be considered a small failure to have a "tutorial" level in the first place.
* Getting more information by right-clicking on things or going to different view modes (e.g. hide tar) should be avoided. The idea that the player will want to learn details about game elements and eventually memorize them should be an anti-pattern.
* 50/50 casting on male/female roles. Include people of color, e.g. black, latino. Playable female characters.

Okay, I could go on forever. Will stop now!

-Erik


____________________________
The Godkiller - Chapter 1 available now on Steam. It's a DROD-like puzzle adventure game.
dev journals | twitch stream | youtube archive (NSFW)

kieranmillar
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Caravel has strong online tools like the H&S thread finder / room viewer and demo verification etc. It also has a community that has been going for a long time and has reached a level of making consistently high quality content. These are really strong things that Caravel can levarage that many other indie devs can't, so in my mind it makes sense to try and design a game that can take advantage of them. But I might be biased because I really love level editors, heh.

Assuming that Caravel sticks to the sort of deterministic logic/puzzle game that it currently does well, I find it hard to imagine that a third-party engine like Unity would be licensed when there is already a robust turn-based grid engine with almost two decades of improvements and big fixes in it.

I see the appeal of DROD spin-offs because the art and music and sound assets are a pretty big expense in game design, and its telling that a more risky venture like RPG hasn't yet warranted investment in hiring an artist for proper HD graphics. If Caravle is going to go for something slightly more risky, I think another DROD spin-off is extremely likely.

If we want to see something non-DROD themed though, then it probably needs to be something that can be played a bit more safe to warrant the expense in the additional "media" that would need to be made.

Thinking about other games that tend to be turn based and on a grid but sufficiently different enough from DROD, I think skell's joke answer actually has some merit. I could see something either Final Fantasy Tactics or Advance Wars-like being a possibility, although in the case of the latter people would be screaming for proper multiplayer functionality, and Caravel always seemed more focussed on single-player experiences to me, I dunno.

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[Last edited by kieranmillar at 02-13-2016 11:41 PM]

skell
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kieranmillar wrote:
skell's joke answer

Runs away with a broken heart.

No but really, I was completely serios when I said that. I think that the post-TSS world of DROD has massive potential for a game, where you control a colony of humans trying to thrive on the barren new land, while fighting both the alien wildlife (or the part that managed to survive) and defending from the part of the Empire that managed to stay alive. Think of a combination of super-simplified Dwarf Fortress's base building and resource management combined with deterministic Tactical skirmishes while letting your characters grow.

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kieranmillar
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skell wrote: Runs away with a broken heart.

No but really, I was completely serios when I said that.

Apologies, I blame the smiley with a tongue sticking out. Maybe it was less blowing a raspberry, and more sticking its tongue out slightly because it's concentrating so hard because it's so serious.

Insoluble
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I'm going to say something sacrilegious here, but one thing that could be considered is something with a story-line that isn't so violent and dungeony. Don't get me wrong, I love the story line of the DROD games to death, but I have a very hard time talking to anyone about the game, much less convincing them to try it out, mostly because it has all the usual plot trappings of a violent slasher video game. I'm probably not in the typical demographics that game companies aim at. I haven't played any computer games other than DROD in well over a decade. None of my friends or family members are into computer games, but many of them are into puzzles and brain teasers and I suspect they would enjoy DROD if they gave it a chance. These are people who are pretty turned off by the blood and dungeons aspect of the game though, so it's hard to convince any of them to give it a shot. Having a similar stepping type game with the intricate puzzle solving style that DROD has, but with a more family friendly plot-line may attract an audience that has overlooked DROD. I don't know much about Frogs and Mice other than the game art at the end of Gunthro, but even that seemed like it would be more palatable. It's also quite possible that this is all just my own selfish desire to have a DROD like game that I don't feel ambivalent about showing to my 4 year old due to all the blood and violence.

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disoriented
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But... everyone likes killing roaches.

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The spitemaster
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Feature Request: Replace all the blood splatter with hearts. 50% bigger market right there.

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D.Craven_0ne
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...and here I was gona say whatever you make next, make sure to add permanent blood splaters and gibs. Sort of like Crimsonland, only more colorfull.

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Bent
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The main reason I play DROD is because of all the usermade holds and the editor capability. These may not be the things that draw people to the series, but it is certainly what makes them stay with it for years and years. I have never seen another puzzle game that you can play basically every day, and still not run out of new, high quality, hand-crafted content to discover.

My biggest concern if Caravel where to make a non-DROD game is that it would play essentially the same as DROD, but also be incompatible with DROD (= how I imagine Frogs and Mice might have turned out). I imagine the worst case scenario as follows:
1: DROD and the new game has similar rulesets, but with small variations in between them (e.g. different move order rules), requiring players of both titles to memorize both rulesets and frequently switch between them.
2: Both DROD and the new game has gameplay elements that are exclusive to each title, but that could potentially have worked together. For the hold architects it would be a pain having to choose which set of elements to use/which title to make their holds for.
3: Because of these things there's obviously no backwards-compatibility with the DROD games. The new game might have nice HD-graphics and other features which makes the whole library of content for DROD, both official and unofficial, feel outdated.

If Caravel were to move away from DROD I think the new game should be another turn-based puzzle game, but other than that be fundamentally different to DROD. I agree that a tactical DROD could be interesting. I also think that a 3D game based on the DROD mechanics could be awesome.

lepke1979
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Don't know if you want to stay in the DROD Universe or not, but I can think of three possibilities on the side of the Empire if you do.


Architects ...a Dungeon Keeper/Evil Genius-ish type of game. Build the hold to keep people from snooping. I think it's been done, but possibly have it where you build the hold to keep out AI driven Smitemasters.



Archivists (and possibly architects?)...one thing I think that could be cool is a game where the Empire go about their business getting their plan done. From pre-Gunthro on. Get the chess pieces where they need to be so to speak.

I don't know if this would make more sense as a simulation game or something else. But a lot of things needed to happen leading up to Beethro discovering the Empire and 1st Archivist doing what he wants to do in TCB and/or doing what he did in TSS (or at least where I'm at so far, haven't finished TSS yet). You have assassinations, espionage, possibly setting up puppet governments, etc. And I think a fun game could be made out of it (whatever that might be).

Could also include having to deal with Patrons/Architects trying to stop them. Or on the other side, have things be from the Patrons/Architects perspective. You have three factions, so potentially three different plans for the Empire. Don't know if Architects always worked with the Patrons, or if some Architects also work with the Archivists.



Empire...possibly expanding from the previous game idea, the Empire is big and has it's tendrils all over the place. Could be an interesting simulation (Sim City/Tropico/Afterlife) type game where you build stuff (and deal with paperwork). Build vats of whatever to inhabit/work and whatever else to keep it running.

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[Last edited by lepke1979 at 02-16-2016 11:30 PM]

Zaratustra00
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Less pressure plate puzzles, more tactical movement.

...

DROD roguelike.

averagemoe
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Does it have to be something Drod themed? I can see a platformer where the player controls the speed of time. Like slowing it down to get through a bunch of moving obstacles, or speeding it up so that a vertically moving platform has enough momentum to throw him to a higher place.

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karlpopper
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@Insoluble - I feel your pain on this: I don't play very many other games, either (Although Witness does have me hooked).

I usually advertise DROD as being like a series of chess puzzles.

In fact, did you know that Erik designed the first version of DROD with an actual chessboard?

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Insoluble
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Something to consider for the next game, (since this is apparently infeasible to implement in the current DROD engine) is turn analysis mode. The original feature request for this in DROD is here:

http://forum.caravelgames.com/viewtopic.php?TopicID=39427&page=0#393303

I think the request applies equally well to the next game Caravel develops though. Any stepping game with more than a couple of elements has the potential for multiple things to happen within one turn. DROD has typically had all those things display simultaneously for the player to avoid turns that are over a minute long. One problem with this is that it can lead to a lot of confusion as complicated interactions are not directly "visible" to the player. Multi-pushing is a good modern example of this, but it's been an issue since the AE era which allowed for roach puzzles that depend on movement order of roaches.

For contrast, some of the Civilizations games (also turn based and on a grid) had each entity and event in a turn display separately, which sometimes resulted in the player having to wait over a minute while everything resolved. So you wouldn't want this type of thing all of the time. It would be nice to allow the player to toggle between turns displaying all movements simultaneously as a default, and turns displaying each interaction one at a time as a special optional view.

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gregboet
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I'm well over a week late to this, but here goes...

ErikH2000 wrote:
* Keep the story, but jeez, don't let it get so complicated, e.g. TSS. New players won't get it or will feel annoyed that they don't care about events and characters unfamiliar to them.

For me, story is what draws me into a game, turns it into a really compelling aesthetic experience rather than just a bunch of puzzles. With TSS, I loved the fact that it contained as much story as it did and saw nothing remotely disadvantageous about that. If it weren't for the story, I never would have persevered through some of those merciless puzzles. In fact, if another Caravel game comes out, I'll probably either play it for its compelling story or not at all.

If anything, one disadvantage of TSS was that you probably enjoyed it better if you remembered stuff from TCB. For example, it's too bad that TSS players missed out if they didn't remember who A1 was. I think that may be what you were getting at, so not sure if I'm disagreeing with you.

Greg

ErikH2000
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gregboet wrote:
If anything, one disadvantage of TSS was that you probably enjoyed it better if you remembered stuff from TCB. For example, it's too bad that TSS players missed out if they didn't remember who A1 was. I think that may be what you were getting at, so not sure if I'm disagreeing with you.

I like the story too. I'm just thinking about being friendly to new players. If you come into TSS as a first game, the story is confusing and maybe tedious.

The story in Gunthro, on the other hand, is pretty approachable even for a new player.

-Erik

____________________________
The Godkiller - Chapter 1 available now on Steam. It's a DROD-like puzzle adventure game.
dev journals | twitch stream | youtube archive (NSFW)

mrimer
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I just found Rust Bucket and played through that. It's a (cheap-to-free) stepping puzzle game with a nice set of monsters and room elements with straightforward rules. I like the music track and the UI is clean.

I perceive it is a lot like how DROD puzzles would have to be designed to play well with device UI, i.e., if there were only 4-directional player movement and no waiting. The game isn't that long, with 20 levels (somewhat like DROD rooms, with some progress checkpoints along the way that work nicely). There's also an "endless" mode that's probably procedurally generated. I can't imagine the puzzles could go much deeper than what's featured in these levels.

I think DROD's core mechanics, from the beginning, are what have enabled it to support the depth and extensibility that we've seen both from Caravel development and the community over the years. It would be hard to back away from the treasure trove of game depth and lore that DROD is today (notwithstanding the idiosyncracies that have iteratively crept in) to start something fresh. At present, that would be a gamble with way too much investment for me with probably too little return. Maybe someday though we can try something "completely" different.

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[Last edited by mrimer at 03-01-2016 01:27 AM]

Keiya
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ErikH2000 wrote:
I like the story too. I'm just thinking about being friendly to new players. If you come into TSS as a first game, the story is confusing and maybe tedious.

The story in Gunthro, on the other hand, is pretty approachable even for a new player.

-Erik

TSS is Return of the Jedi, Gunthro is A New Hope.

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D.Craven_0ne
Level: Master Delver

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Or! -We could nick someones BRILLIANT IDEA!

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LeoS
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Since the idea of time manipulation was introduced with TSS I could see some variant of the idea (completely original never been used before) "something goes awry temporally and the Main Character splits into an 'unhelpful' side".
Secreted for space:

Lastly, whether or not Caravel goes away from the Eighth canon,

ErikH2000 wrote:
* 50/50 casting on male/female roles.

binary gender roles are *so* last century
phrased snarkily but meant seriously.

RabidChild
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Keiya wrote:
TSS is Return of the Jedi, Gunthro is A New Hope The Phantom Menace.

FTFY.

Keiya
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RabidChild wrote:

Keiya wrote:
TSS is Return of the Jedi, Gunthro is A New Hope The Phantom Menace.

FTFY.

Except Gunthro is actually good.

ETA: Actually, perhaps something more in the survival genre that's popular now? Food (or fuel, or electric charge in a robot, or) management, something akin to monster movement manipulation, and maybe some classic sliding ice or pushblock puzzles could possibly work? ... that might just become a turn limit timer though, hm.

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[Last edited by Keiya at 03-01-2016 05:58 AM]

Banjooie
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I wouldn't be mad to see you guys do your take on a Zachtronics style game, whether it be The Rigorous Rules of the Empire or Vat Alchemy. Vatchemy.

Oh my god I demand a game explaining the specifics of making all the monsters and elements of the Empire via vat-growth.