joker5
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 607
Registered: 11-25-2003
IP: Logged

It's been gasping and choking for several weeks now, and now it has stopped breathing. I'm going to go rate myself up all the times that I can and then wait for the end.

Seriously, the rating system just doesn't work anymore. The ratings are just static now. Good and funny posts don't get plusses, flaming posts probably won't get minuses... we should go back to post numbers.

~joker5

____________________________
Criminals, like other people, dislike being shot. ~FBI study on guns

www.badgerbadgerbadger.com

"Two words: Beam Waffle!" -me

gamer_extreme_101
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1939
Registered: 03-07-2004
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I'd hope that we go back to using post count for the levels, but keep the moderating for seeing how good each of your posts are as a seperate number viewable in your profile. Besides, a lot of the "Top 20 Posters" haven't posted in awhile.

____________________________
--That guy with a million different aliases since he doesn't like this name anymore.

eytanz
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2708
Registered: 02-05-2003
IP: Logged

The problem with post counts is that quite a few people were making posts just to increase their post count, and others were talking about the post count, and basically it was all just an annoying distraction.

Frankly, the quality of the posts has increased considerably with the new system. It may not be a system that gets people very excited, but I think that's a good thing. I'd say keep it as it is for as long as we can.

____________________________
I got my avatar back! Yay!

rowrow
Level: Smiter
Rank Points: 432
Registered: 08-17-2004
IP: Logged

I have 2 questions: What was the date that starting from then you only get points by getting modded up,And 2: Did you get 1 point for every 1 post that you made or was it every 2? etc... .And I disagree totally with this system.Why should the users who came before this system was added have more points? You should have reset everyones points.

Maybe everyone should get points for posts and the people in charge should mod people down if need be,or mod up by a contest or an outstanding post

[Edited by rowrow at Local Time:10-04-2004 at 01:19 AM]

____________________________
B'hakhgra Du S'tra Moth'ness Ti!

The_Red_Hawk
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 783
Registered: 09-02-2003
IP: Logged

I really think its importance should be decreased tremendously. Often, I find I have something I really want to say, except its only one or two sentences, so I don't say it. I don't think too many people would post badly - flames aren't that common anyways, and short stuff can just be pointed out by someone and stopped. When you get to posting for post count, you still really have to actually say something, and only one post per topic at a time. If it gets to be too much, it would probably be simple for the moderators to delete them, if there's no point to them. (Perhaps we could have a program that does that automatically to anything under ten letters or so, but that could have disadvantages for stuff similar to the One Word Story in future).

Just my two cents.

____________________________
Slashing, whirling, diving, twirling,
Snapping, turning, rising, swirling,
Screeching, flipping, gliding, sliding,
The red hawk's dance of death.

.....the king of the skies.....

DiMono
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1181
Registered: 09-13-2003
IP: Logged

It's actually very convenient for me that someone brought this up, because I was thinking of a new feature to be used in unison with ranking. I actually first saw it on the Rooster Teeth forums, which opened up to the public something like 12 hours ago.

Karma Points

Everyone starts at zero. When a post of yours is rated up, your karma goes up as well (maybe a karma point for every two good mods). Then, when a post of yours is rated down, your karma points go down but your mod points stay the same. Finally, every so many karma points earns you something cool, like extra mod points or DROD store credit or something.

Then there could be other ways of earning karma points as well. Releasing a completed hold to the Holds forum might get you karma points, ordering something from the DROD store could get you some, writing an article for the Architect's Toolkit... basically, the idea is that the more active you are in the community, the better your karma.

What does everyone think?

____________________________
Deploy the... I think it's a yellow button... it's usually flashing... it makes the engines go... WHOOSH!

Mattcrampy
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2388
Registered: 05-29-2003
IP: Logged

I think we might already have it?

Rank Points

Everyone starts at ten. When a post of yours is rated up, your rank points go up as well (maybe a karma point for every good mod). Then, when a post of yours is rated down, your rank points go down but your mod points stay the same. Finally, every so many rank points earns you something cool, like a new rating or something.

Then there could be other ways of earning rank points as well. Releasing a completed hold to the Holds forum might get you rank points, participating in monthly competitions, writing an article for the Architect's Toolkit... basically, the idea is that the more active you are in the community, the better your rank points.

Hey, you know, that's a great idea! I really should give some rank points to those lovely people who have written me published Toolkits. (I've still got one of DiMono's that I'm waiting for the right time to use.)

Matt

____________________________
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Doom
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 3226
Registered: 07-05-2004
IP: Logged

You have to spend 2 or even more points give someone a [+1].

That results in decreasing of mod points. If people keep rating each other the points will disappear unless some mod with infinite mod points rates other people...

If you would get for example 1.5 mod points for every rank point, you could start different unofficial contests more easily and also rate more good posts.
Too many points vanish into mothingness currently...

DiMono
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1181
Registered: 09-13-2003
IP: Logged

Mattcrampy wrote:
Hey, you know, that's a great idea! I really should give some rank points to those lovely people who have written me published Toolkits.

Glad to have been of service.

____________________________
Deploy the... I think it's a yellow button... it's usually flashing... it makes the engines go... WHOOSH!

eytanz
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2708
Registered: 02-05-2003
IP: Logged

Heh. I found it rather amusing that my post was the only one above that actually got modded, so I went ahead and modded everyone else who posted as well.

Seriously, though, I have a lot of spare mod points and am usually too lazy to use them. If anyone has a contest or anything else of a constructive nature that they want extra mod points for, PM me and I'll be glad to distribute them. Only DROD-related things, though.

____________________________
I got my avatar back! Yay!

The_Red_Hawk
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 783
Registered: 09-02-2003
IP: Logged

Mattcrampy wrote:
(I've still got one of DiMono's that I'm waiting for the right time to use.)

You forgot the one of mine.


Anyways, I don't mind keeping the rank point system, but I'm certain that it has to be changed in some way. I hardly ever use any, because I hardly ever get any, and I conserve them as much as I can. It seems like a lot of people are the same way. I suggest allowing people to have one mod point a week or so, besides the ones they get from posts. And the system itself has flaws - if one person out of all the people on the forum finds a post worthy of being modded down, and the others find nothing wrong with it, it will seem like the forum is in general agreement that the post is bad. It works the same the other way also. The modding system is also biased. For example, on the Hints and Solutions board, some people get a mod point every time they help someone, whereas I have hardly ever received one. Therefore, I do not find myself posting on that board any more, because even if I have something to say, I have nothing to gain from it. Another large flaw is that most regulars on the forum don't think much of new people, who usually have a hard time getting points. Also, I find that I will sometimes look over the forum, find about 5 places I would like to post, and I don't because one person out of over 200 might not like it.

My other two cents.

____________________________
Slashing, whirling, diving, twirling,
Snapping, turning, rising, swirling,
Screeching, flipping, gliding, sliding,
The red hawk's dance of death.

.....the king of the skies.....

mrimer
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 5056
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged

The_Red_Hawk wrote:
Anyways, I don't mind keeping the rank point system, but I'm certain that it has to be changed in some way. I hardly ever use any, because I hardly ever get any, and I conserve them as much as I can. It seems like a lot of people are the same way. I suggest allowing people to have one mod point a week or so, besides the ones they get from posts. And the system itself has flaws - if one person out of all the people on the forum finds a post worthy of being modded down, and the others find nothing wrong with it, it will seem like the forum is in general agreement that the post is bad. It works the same the other way also. The modding system is also biased. For example, on the Hints and Solutions board, some people get a mod point every time they help someone, whereas I have hardly ever received one. Therefore, I do not find myself posting on that board any more, because even if I have something to say, I have nothing to gain from it. Another large flaw is that most regulars on the forum don't think much of new people, who usually have a hard time getting points. Also, I find that I will sometimes look over the forum, find about 5 places I would like to post, and I don't because one person out of over 200 might not like it.

Thanks for sharing these thoughts, Red Hawk. You do bring up some significant ideas that I'd like to comment on. Yes, this system still relies heavily on the admins/moderators to work, while giving secondary authority to users, and more to those who do things just to help, and not just because they have something to gain from it. I think that's the way it was intended to be. I wouldn't be so worried about someone out there not liking your post -- if one only posts to be given points (or, conversely, doesn't post to not be given negative points), then they are still in the mindset of the old system that you've gotta get as many points as possible. But why? IMHO, this system is to oppose people whose sole purpose is to post more just to amass more points. So...if what I say has meaning for other users, and I want to share it "just because", then what does it matter what it's modded? I recommend you just try to be yourself. We appreciate you contributing to the DROD community, and I recommend you continue this way, responsibly and joyfully.

____________________________
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Gandalf the Grey. That was my name.
I am Gandalf the White.
And I come back to you now at the turn of the tide.

DiMono
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1181
Registered: 09-13-2003
IP: Logged

mrimer wrote:
All sorts of stuff...
and then...

So...if what I say has meaning for other users, and I want to share it "just because", then what does it matter what it's modded?

I fully agree. I think I've been modded down more than everyone else on the boards combined, and it really doesn't affect my daily life at all. Just be yourself, and don't let a webboard affect how you act.

____________________________
Deploy the... I think it's a yellow button... it's usually flashing... it makes the engines go... WHOOSH!

Schik
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 5381
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged

Mike snuck a post in there while I was writing this, so some of my comments might be redundant.

The_Red_Hawk wrote:
I hardly ever use any, because I hardly ever get any, and I conserve them as much as I can.

Conserving them is what slows down the system, and makes it not work as well as it could. If everyone spent them more freely, more people would get more points more often. You just have to be confident that more points will come. They will.

And the system itself has flaws - if one person out of all the people on the forum finds a post worthy of being modded down, and the others find nothing wrong with it, it will seem like the forum is in general agreement that the post is bad.

Well, if anyone disagrees with that moderation strongly enough, they'll likely mod it the other way, so I don't see this as a big problem. I don't think there have even been too many negative mods lately, have there?

The modding system is also biased. For example, on the Hints and Solutions board, some people get a mod point every time they help someone, whereas I have hardly ever received one.

Hmmm. I don't have time to go through all the hints and look for this trend, but the first post I saw by you (here) was pointed out to basically be restating the question, so for that one example, I don't have a problem with that post not being modded up. Personally, I tend to occasionally go through the last bunch of hint & solution topics giving mod points out like candy. Sometimes I do it every day for a week, sometimes I don't do it at all for a week, and I hope that other moderators are covering it.

Therefore, I do not find myself posting on that board any more, because even if I have something to say, I have nothing to gain from it.

This will sound cheesy, but you'll gain the satisfaction of having helped someone. I'll try to keep an eye out for discriminitory modding on the H&S board, and hopefully other moderators can help me with that.

I find that I will sometimes look over the forum, find about 5 places I would like to post, and I don't because one person out of over 200 might not like it.

My only advice would be.... don't worry about it. You can't please everybody all the time. Most people would have to *really* dislike your post in order to spend points giving it a Bad rating.

____________________________
The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way it treats its animals.
--Mahatma Gandhi

DiMono
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1181
Registered: 09-13-2003
IP: Logged

The only thing I don't like about the current rating system is the increasing point cost. It cost me 300 mod points to run my independant contest the other month, because the cost per rank point goes up each time. I think at this point it would be reasonable to lower all rankings to the same cost of 2, maybe even drop it to 1 to keep more points in the system for longer.

____________________________
Deploy the... I think it's a yellow button... it's usually flashing... it makes the engines go... WHOOSH!

The_Red_Hawk
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 783
Registered: 09-02-2003
IP: Logged

mrimer wrote:
I wouldn't be so worried about someone out there not liking your post -- if one only posts to be given points (or, conversely, doesn't post to not be given negative points), then they are still in the mindset of the old system that you've gotta get as many points as possible.

I would still post here if there was no system at all, mod points or post count or something else. However, if the system of increasing only works on some boards, then the others will lose activity. It is in human nature to be competitive, and nobody can change that.

...this system is to oppose people whose sole purpose is to post more just to amass more points.

Exactly. But the losses far outweigh the gains. Before this system came into effect, there were lots of posts, and only a few bad ones. After it did, the number of posts per day went down by half, even if most of them were actually good.

So...if what I say has meaning for other users, and I want to share it "just because", then what does it matter what it's modded? I recommend you just try to be yourself. We appreciate you contributing to the DROD community, and I recommend you continue this way, responsibly and joyfully.

As I said - it's human nature to be competitive. I really don't mind that much being modded up or down, but I still like to be modded up and don't like to be modded down. The idea when I talked about this was that other people always seem to get modded up for certain things, while I don't. And it never seems to work vice-versa.

Schik wrote:
Conserving them is what slows down the system, and makes it not work as well as it could. If everyone spent them more freely, more people would get more points more often. You just have to be confident that more points will come. They will.

Yes, but the point is that they don't. As joker said, it's sort of dead. Posts no longer get modded as much. Just a couple of days ago, I got my first +2 in a very long time. I hardly even see any.

Well, if anyone disagrees with that moderation strongly enough, they'll likely mod it the other way, so I don't see this as a big problem. I don't think there have even been too many negative mods lately, have there?

There haven't been very many of any mod lately, and good ones were always more common than bad. The only thing I ever use mod points for these days is to un-mod people who got negatives if I don't think they should have.

Personally, I tend to occasionally go through the last bunch of hint & solution topics giving mod points out like candy.

In that case, you miss me. Maybe I'll try posting more there a couple times.

EDIT: Oh, and DiMono, I agree with you that costs shouldn't go up.

[Edited by The_Red_Hawk at Local Time:10-04-2004 at 07:11 PM]

____________________________
Slashing, whirling, diving, twirling,
Snapping, turning, rising, swirling,
Screeching, flipping, gliding, sliding,
The red hawk's dance of death.

.....the king of the skies.....

Doom
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 3226
Registered: 07-05-2004
IP: Logged

Has the rating system gone wild?
8 of my 12 previous posts have been rated.

Nillo
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 548
Registered: 01-04-2004
IP: Logged

I think the rating system is good as it is.
Having levels based on post count harms people who only post when they have something meaningful to say.
Lowering the cost of modding to 1 mod point would result in people making forum multis, then rate them back and forth.

____________________________
“Folks say that if you listen real close at the height of the full moon, when the wind is blowin' off Nantucket Sound from the nor' east and the dogs are howlin' for no earthly reason, you can hear the awful screams of the crew of the 'Ellie May,' a sturdy whaler Captained by John McTavish; for it was on just such a night when the rum was flowin' and, Davey Jones be damned, big John brought his men on deck for the first of several screaming contests.”

The_Red_Hawk
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 783
Registered: 09-02-2003
IP: Logged

But it would still cost.

____________________________
Slashing, whirling, diving, twirling,
Snapping, turning, rising, swirling,
Screeching, flipping, gliding, sliding,
The red hawk's dance of death.

.....the king of the skies.....

Schik
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 5381
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged

The_Red_Hawk wrote:
But it would still cost.

But if it costs Schik one point to give a fictional Schik2 one point, then Schik2 takes that one point and applies it back to Schik, and then Schik takes that one point and applies it back to Schik2, and then....

Two people, or one person with two accounts, could give each other endless rank points.


____________________________
The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way it treats its animals.
--Mahatma Gandhi

DiMono
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1181
Registered: 09-13-2003
IP: Logged

Schik wrote:

The_Red_Hawk wrote:
But it would still cost.

But if it costs Schik one point to give a fictional Schik2 one point, then Schik2 takes that one point and applies it back to Schik, and then Schik takes that one point and applies it back to Schik2, and then....

Two people, or one person with two accounts, could give each other endless rank points.

Alright, so having them cost 1 is bad, but what about making it always cost 2? Even as it is, anyone with a lot of patience can try to abuse the system by creating new accounts, but when I see a post I agree with and want to mod up, but it's already at +3, 5 points is quite the investment compared to if I'd gotten there just a few minutes earlier.

____________________________
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The_Red_Hawk
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 783
Registered: 09-02-2003
IP: Logged

Schik wrote:
Two people, or one person with two accounts, could give each other endless rank points.

But both of them would still have the same number, so what's the point?

____________________________
Slashing, whirling, diving, twirling,
Snapping, turning, rising, swirling,
Screeching, flipping, gliding, sliding,
The red hawk's dance of death.

.....the king of the skies.....

eytanz
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2708
Registered: 02-05-2003
IP: Logged

They'll have the same amount of mod points, but their actual rank will increase. Remember, we have a dual system here - and the points which everyone sees are the ones which don't go down when you mod someone else up.

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agaricus5
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1838
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged

rowrow wrote:
I think its unfair that the older users have more points and the people in charge should reset them as I said before.I makes sence:New system,new points.And also as I said before why can't we get points for posting,and the mods should mod down if someone went against the rules. It would make sence. Not all post are exceptionally good and not all good ones get points.

But how much policing do you think that's going to take? Already the forum post count is something approaching 50-90 posts per day, and this would be extremely tiring to have to check through and analyse, not to mention being time consuming at the same time.

I understand the problem of wanting a higher rank, and of course the "karma"/good feeling that comes with it, but the Forum's method of getting them is not the most efficient or fast, as you pointed out.

However, does it really matter?

Are you any less disadvantaged having fewer points than a senior member with more?

The mod system probably focusses more on the actual score of each post, rather than rank, which is a sort of by-product created to encourage healthy posting, and help spread mod points. If you look at the way the system is used, the number of posts that warrant negative mods have dropped considerably, since they get modded down very quickly, so being a good deterrent to their creation. Also, their rarity gives them an artificial value many times higher than a positive - I would think that most people take a single negative more seriously than a lot of single positives.

Plus, cumulative positives, like +3, +4, and +5s are also very rare, and so they too have a much higher artificial value too.

If you are concerned about mod points, don't worry about rank too much. Be more concerned about what sort of mod points your posts are getting, or in fact, ignore what is going on, and just post for the DROD Forum's benefit. From there, this is where your rank will increase, often unexpectedly.

____________________________
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rowrow
Level: Smiter
Rank Points: 432
Registered: 08-17-2004
IP: Logged

agaricus5 wrote:
However, does it really matter?

No I was just pointing,it out.I'm not too much into the points anyway,I have other things to do(like playing DROD)

Are you any less disadvantaged having fewer points than a senior member with more?

No, I was just saying that it's no big deal to have so many point's from then since you get a point for every post.Some older users ignore newer users.Why? Because they barely have any points.So in other words,you are more popular bcause of you'r points. I would have alot more than I have now.




[Edited by rowrow at Local Time:10-04-2004 at 11:16 PM]

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eytanz
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2708
Registered: 02-05-2003
IP: Logged

rowrow wrote:
Some older users ignore newer users.Why? Because they barely have any points.

What? Do you really feel that way? If so, that's a far more serious problem IMO than anything mentioned above.

I mean - speaking as one of the forum's oldest users - I definitely know I don't interact as much with the newer users as with the people who've been around a long time, but that has nothing to do with points; it's because I don't know the new people as well as I do the older ones, and because I don't have time to respond to everything so I prefer to respond to posts by the people I consider friends. And it's been so long since I played KDD that I can no longer reliably respond to hint requests, which is what the majority of posters start out with. But I never ever look at point counts when choosing where to post. (I do look at point counts when choosing who to mod up - I'm far more likely to mod up a new user (points<100) than an older user. Which may be part of the reason Red_Hawk feels like he's being ignored - I rarely mod him up because he's already has a lot of points. But that's a different issue, I think.)

And I don't think I'm different in any of this than anyone else - I'd be really surprised if there was anyone who looked at point counts when making posts.

____________________________
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agaricus5
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1838
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged

rowrow wrote:

agaricus5 wrote:
Are you any less disadvantaged having fewer points than a senior member with more?

No, I was just saying that it's no big deal to have so many point's from then since you get a point for every post.Some older users ignore newer users.Why? Because they barely have any points.So in other words,you are more popular bcause of you'r points. I would have alot more than I have now.

Whoa.

I agree with Eytan very much.

Popularity has little to do with rank points, I would believe.

I would think the amount of contributions you make to DROD and its community would determine its popularity, not your rank.

For example, I wouldn't consider myself popular - many threads I reply to often are stopped by me, or my post ignored in a discussion, even though I have 800+ rank points, which only tells people I can win contests and post properly (avoid negative mods). Plus, I wouldn't think people are likely to notice me for having done anything exceptionally interesting or original for DROD, except being good at it, since most newer people don't really know me very well.

"Popularity" is only a relative thing. You may be more "well liked" than you think (although this probably applies to me too - I'm a cynic, of course).

If you want to be "popular", then be "noticed" for what you can do - if you contribute to the community or DROD in a positive way, people will "notice" it, and so therefore you.

An internet board is anonymous - we can only find out and get to know about you through what you post.

[Edited by agaricus5 at Local Time:10-04-2004 at 11:45 PM]

____________________________
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ErikH2000
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2794
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged

Personally, I go out of my way to mod up posts by new users, but I get busy and miss them. Also, I've got hints & solutions e-mail notifies turned off so I miss a lot of new user posts there. Basically, if I see a new user making a post and it isn't annoying (recent "sexbot" post from "deadhead" is an example.) or just a request for help then I'll mod it up. (I have no objection to help requests, but I don't think it is in the category of a "contribution".) Also I try a little harder than usual to respond to new user posts if I have time, because I want these new people to get involved in the board.

I don't think we should get too caught up in who gets modded up or down, who was overlooked, for what reasons, etc. But in a way I agree with Red Hawk that it is important to pay attention to the new users.

-Erik

____________________________
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DiMono
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1181
Registered: 09-13-2003
IP: Logged

I think Drizzo is living proof that new guys can make it too. Dude's up to about 180 or something now, and he joined after modpoints became popular.

____________________________
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rowrow
Level: Smiter
Rank Points: 432
Registered: 08-17-2004
IP: Logged

Is he still here?I didn't see any posts from him recently.And about being unpopular,I wasn't talking about myself.

[Edited by rowrow at Local Time:10-05-2004 at 12:06 AM]

____________________________
B'hakhgra Du S'tra Moth'ness Ti!