Red-XIII
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 623
Registered: 08-05-2012
IP: Logged

Hi guys, I'd like to know if this is intended since it's a bit non intuitive.
If I push a gentryii (with chain) with a stick into a pit it clearly doesn't fall since the chain is still on the floor and that's ok, but if there is only the gentryii's head and no chain it still doesn't fall. It seems strange since Beethro pushes only the head (which occupies only one tile) so he should be able to push it into the pit/water/shallow water.

____________________________
There's not some other world out there where everything's gonna be okay.
There's just this one, just this rock.
-33th Skywatcher

---

[Last edited by Red-XIII at 09-27-2014 12:19 PM]

Red-XIII
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 623
Registered: 08-05-2012
IP: Logged

Hello.
Sorry for bumping this, but now that Skell proposed TSS 5.0.2 I'd like to know if that behaviour is intended.

____________________________
There's not some other world out there where everything's gonna be okay.
There's just this one, just this rock.
-33th Skywatcher

skell
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 3734
Registered: 12-28-2004
IP: Logged

There are more problematic interactions to be honest. Below are all I can think of with my proposed solutions, but please note that these are only my opinions - I don't yet know how we will fix'em .

- Pushing Gentryii into pit - Gentryii and the chain die
- Pushing Gentryii into deep water - Gentryii and the chain die
- Pushing Gentryii into shallow water - Stepping stone is formed and the chain is removed

____________________________
My website | Facebook | Twitter

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4590
Registered: 02-20-2007
IP: Logged

During beta-testing, when we discussed the gentryii/oremite interaction, TFMurphy mentioned this:

I note another 'interaction' in that while Gentryii heads can be pushed around, they cannot be pushed over the edge of pits. I'm not sure if we discussed this interaction during development, but after giving that some thought, I think I'm fine with the current state -- it would seem too easy to get rid of Gentryii if you could just knock the head into a pit. (You can still drop a bridge from under them, but that requires a lot more work and specific architecture.)

I would agree with this, but I can see the rationale for making 1-tile gentryii an exception. I'm happy with it going either way on that.

____________________________
50th Skywatcher

Moo
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 224
Registered: 10-14-2006
IP: Logged

That makes it sound like it shouldn't be possible to push them into the pit in the first place. I did a little test, and was unable to use a staff to push a Gentryii head (with or without chain) into a pit. I was also unable to push it into shallow or deep water. So as far as I can see, these interactions aren't a problem.
The question is, how was Red-XIII able to push them onto pits?

skell
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 3734
Registered: 12-28-2004
IP: Logged

I don't think he ever pushed Gentryii into pit, just a weird phrasing.

Anyhow if TFM has decided to make them unkillable by push-drop and it was accepted during development (I kinda now recognize that quote) then let's leave it as is, although it seems to be yet another exception to remember, because that's the only pushable but undroppable and unsinkable monster as far as I can tell.

____________________________
My website | Facebook | Twitter

---

[Last edited by skell at 01-23-2015 03:32 PM]

Red-XIII
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 623
Registered: 08-05-2012
IP: Logged

Moo wrote:
That makes it sound like it shouldn't be possible to push them into the pit in the first place. I did a little test, and was unable to use a staff to push a Gentryii head (with or without chain) into a pit. I was also unable to push it into shallow or deep water. So as far as I can see, these interactions aren't a problem.
The question is, how was Red-XIII able to push them onto pits?

Uhm, I'm afraid you misunderstood me, I'm NOT able to push a single tile gentryii into the pit, and this, IMO, is not intuitive.

I agree with TFMurphy about not being able to push the gentryii with all the chain into the pit, but, as Nuntar said and I'll repeat, if a gentryii has no chain, it's not heavy so it's rationale that I should be able to push it into the pit.

I also agree that if the gentryii is pushed into shallow water it'll form stepping stone.
I also think that there would be more puzzle potential with this feature.

____________________________
There's not some other world out there where everything's gonna be okay.
There's just this one, just this rock.
-33th Skywatcher

---

[Last edited by Red-XIII at 01-23-2015 03:40 PM]

skell
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 3734
Registered: 12-28-2004
IP: Logged

Red-XIII wrote:
I agree with TFMurphy about not being able to push the gentryii with all the chain into the pit, but, as Nuntar said and I'll repeat, if a gentryii has no chain, it's not heavy so it's rationale that I should be able to push it into the pit.

I'd say if you are able to push something on the floor, regardless of all the friction, then pushing it off the edge of a pit should be even less problematic.

____________________________
My website | Facebook | Twitter

disoriented
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2384
Registered: 08-07-2007
IP: Logged

I think changing this behavior at this point would break too many rooms.

____________________________
34th Skywatcher

Best to PM me, since I might miss your message on CaravelNet chat.

skell
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 3734
Registered: 12-28-2004
IP: Logged

Eh, you are probably right with this one

____________________________
My website | Facebook | Twitter

karlpopper
Level: Master Delver

Rank Points: 263
Registered: 03-28-2009
IP: Logged

Remember that room in TSS with the tuning fork?

You could drop the nasty things down pits there couldn't you? Chains and all, IIRC.

Just by magicking the floor away .... hahaha.

____________________________
76th SkyWatcher
When the only tool you have is a Really Big Sword, all problems start to look like Giant Roaches

Dragon Fogel
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 2434
Registered: 06-21-2014
IP: Logged

After messing around a bit in the editor, it looks to me like the unusual rule here is that gentryii can be pushed at all.

Rock giants and serpents can't be pushed, into pits or not. You also can't move platforms with one of these monsters on it. The same is true of gentryii chains. But gentryii heads are pushable, whether chained or not; and yet the heads, attached or not, otherwise exhibit the behavior of "heavy" monsters.

So basically, gentryii have the properties of "heavy" monsters whether they take up one tile or more, except that their heads can be pushed. But they can't be pushed into pits. This is weird and it's not entirely obvious what parts of it should be changed (either ideally or practically).

bomber50
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 872
Registered: 09-18-2006
IP: Logged

It seems like gentryii can now be pushed into pits, water, and shallow water. Pushing them onto shallow water is especially weird, since they won't step on it themselves normally.

Probably an unintended change, since I don't remember, and can't find, anywhere it was said to be changed.

Using 5.1.0.6501.

Keiya
Level: Delver
Rank Points: 73
Registered: 03-25-2012
IP: Logged

And they act WEIRD in shallow water. It seems like you can't push them horizontally such that the chain will go into it, but you *can* push vertically or diagonally.

____________________________
636th Trapdoor Replacer

Official Hold Progress:

skell
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 3734
Registered: 12-28-2004
IP: Logged

Fixed this issue. should be available in the next release. Mike, I pushed it directly into DROD_Dev branch without a PR but the change was superbly minimal.

____________________________
My website | Facebook | Twitter

mrimer
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 5056
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged

skell wrote:
Fixed this issue. should be available in the next release. Mike, I pushed it directly into DROD_Dev branch without a PR but the change was superbly minimal.

That's fine. Thank you! Looks like I introduced a regression. This fix should be incorporated with demo verification.

____________________________
Gandalf? Yes... That's what they used to call me.
Gandalf the Grey. That was my name.
I am Gandalf the White.
And I come back to you now at the turn of the tide.

---

[Last edited by mrimer at 03-13-2016 09:55 PM]

skell
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 3734
Registered: 12-28-2004
IP: Logged

Mike, could you prepare a build so that people can test and verify that the fix is indeed correct?

____________________________
My website | Facebook | Twitter

mrimer
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 5056
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged

AOMEI Backupper is the simplest FREE backup software with system/disk/partition/file backups and system/disk clone. http://www.backup-utility.com [/myspam]

Sure. Going on the 5.1 patch thread now.

____________________________
Gandalf? Yes... That's what they used to call me.
Gandalf the Grey. That was my name.
I am Gandalf the White.
And I come back to you now at the turn of the tide.

---

[Last edited by mrimer at 07-04-2016 09:18 PM]

Dragon Fogel
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 2434
Registered: 06-21-2014
IP: Logged

Confirmed, in 5.1.0.6505 pushing a gentryii into a pit, water, or shallow water tile only stuns it. Tested with chainless gentryii, chained gentryii stuck to a wall, and free-moving chained gentryii.

Also double-checked that the fix didn't somehow revert pushing gentryii into weapons (since I'm guessing that was what broke it). Fortunately, it didn't; gentryii can still be pushed into all weapons except cabers.