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hyperme
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icon Re: TSS: Afterthought Speculation (+1)  
Something on Truth Vessels:

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07-19-2014 at 10:50 AM
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tempestadept
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A simple idea about the Pit Thing and good ending.
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07-19-2014 at 11:42 AM
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Pinnacle
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Also, for the sake of readability, are spoiler tags really necessary in a post-ending speculation thread? I think you should expect spoilers coming in.

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Once (adv.): Enough.
Twice (adv.): Once too often.
~Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary

[Last edited by Pinnacle at 07-20-2014 09:54 PM]
07-20-2014 at 09:53 PM
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mrimer
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The abovegrounder nations are named after actual notable people that survived the Turning and made their way aboveground.

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Gandalf? Yes... That's what they used to call me.
Gandalf the Grey. That was my name.
I am Gandalf the White.
And I come back to you now at the turn of the tide.
07-20-2014 at 10:13 PM
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tempestadept
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icon Re: TSS: Afterthought Speculation (+1)  
Btw, is there a way to get answers on all the minor questions you can ask Truth Vessels (in first chapters) without replaying the same levels several times?
07-22-2014 at 06:54 PM
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mrimer
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tempestadept wrote:
Btw, is there a way to get answers on all the minor questions you can ask Truth Vessels (in first chapters) without replaying the same levels several times?
No.

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Gandalf? Yes... That's what they used to call me.
Gandalf the Grey. That was my name.
I am Gandalf the White.
And I come back to you now at the turn of the tide.
07-22-2014 at 10:15 PM
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Zaratustra00
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mrimer wrote:
The abovegrounder nations are named after actual notable people that survived the Turning and made their way aboveground.

Which means there might eventually be a
Click here to view the secret text


[Last edited by Zaratustra00 at 07-23-2014 10:32 AM]
07-23-2014 at 10:31 AM
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Fang
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Zaratustra00 wrote:
mrimer wrote:
The abovegrounder nations are named after actual notable people that survived the Turning and made their way aboveground.

Which means there might eventually be a
Click here to view the secret text
Click here to view the secret text


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[Last edited by Fang at 07-23-2014 02:33 PM]
07-23-2014 at 02:32 PM
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Banjooie
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Well, that doesn't actually preclude what he said.
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07-23-2014 at 05:36 PM
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Dischorran
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Wouldn't it be cool if the new Surface were called the Ninth?

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07-28-2014 at 03:51 AM
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Fang
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I'm taking some creative liberties with my currently-Architectured and Beta-ed hold about the events following TSS. Hopefully I don't end up producing insane contradictions, while expanding on the past.

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07-28-2014 at 04:09 AM
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xpym
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This speculation about the Pit Thing is very enlightening, thanks everyone. I have another couple of questions, regarding the 1st Watcher. The only definite thing I learned about this position is that Jebowdly dude was the "first" 1st Watcher, respected despite his incompetence. But how did it become vacant, who knew about this and was interested in covering it up, and for what purpose?

Also, I presume that the "Mothingness", other than being an ascended in-joke, is a metaphor for the empire's warped ideology.
08-07-2014 at 12:28 PM
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enzi666
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I'm still wraping my head around the pit thing and it's motivations. Back in JtRH it was more hostile, playing with Beethros mind and his feelings.

The way I interpret it, is that the pit thing was created a very long time ago as means to get answers to philosophical questions. Questions there is no answer to. It also couldn't answer how to stop the turning. When the creators realised this they deemed it worthless therefore, "left behind like putrid milk".

There are still a lot of questions:
- Why does the pit thing die after telling the truth?
- Why does giving straight answers give it physical pain?
- What was the reason to suddenly help Beethro?
- Is the farrow child really related or does the pit thing only refers to her as sister because these 2 forces survive the turning?

Seeing the farrow child/pit thing as duality for surfacers/empire. It's also the first time these two work together to overcome the impossible. Maybe that's the reason the pit thing changed it's mind about Beethro.

I hope this discussion keeps on going and we can also solve this puzzle! :)

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DROD AE: Finished - KDD2: Mastered
JTRH: Mastered
TCB: Mastered - RPG: Finished
GatEB: Mastered - TSS: Mastered
08-08-2014 at 01:48 AM
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Drgamer
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I haven't watched/listened to the DROD developer interview yet, so I don't know how much would confirm/deny anything.

xpym wrote:
This speculation about the Pit Thing is very enlightening, thanks everyone. I have another couple of questions, regarding the 1st Watcher. The only definite thing I learned about this position is that Jebowdly dude was the "first" 1st Watcher, respected despite his incompetence. But how did it become vacant, who knew about this and was interested in covering it up, and for what purpose?

Also, I presume that the "Mothingness", other than being an ascended in-joke, is a metaphor for the empire's warped ideology.
My understanding, though I haven't played the Smitemaster Selection where Beethro finds out about the vacancy, is that Jebowdly was the only 1st Watcher. There are hints that him having the position was a sort of comforting thing. A constant. Him being alive, without being alive would have been thought to be important to keeping the Empire together. And then it became tradition.

I'm uncertain if the Empire just covered up his death, or it was a gradual 'hiding away' kind of thing. Where Jebowdly was falling ill, and someone decided that they should make preparations for his death.

Alternatively after Jebowdly died, it became an 'empty' position. More symbolic than functional, with the actual function elsewhere.

A key point that I'm unsure of is how 'classified'/restricted the level descriptions are. Specifically the one that talks about Jebowdly posthumously. If it's secret, then Jebowdly could very well have been the only 1st Watcher. I'm guessing that the fact that he wasn't a vatborn is kept secret, however. Him being from a surface could have become secret after all the non-vatborn were created.
enzi666 wrote:
I'm still wraping my head around the pit thing and it's motivations. Back in JtRH it was more hostile, playing with Beethros mind and his feelings.

The way I interpret it, is that the pit thing was created a very long time ago as means to get answers to philosophical questions. Questions there is no answer to. It also couldn't answer how to stop the turning. When the creators realised this they deemed it worthless therefore, "left behind like putrid milk".

There are still a lot of questions:
1) Why does the pit thing die after telling the truth?
2) Why does giving straight answers give it physical pain?
3) What was the reason to suddenly help Beethro?
4) Is the farrow child really related or does the pit thing only refers to her as sister because these 2 forces survive the turning?

Seeing the farrow child/pit thing as duality for surfacers/empire. It's also the first time these two work together to overcome the impossible. Maybe that's the reason the pit thing changed it's mind about Beethro.

I hope this discussion keeps on going and we can also solve this puzzle! :)
I numbered your questions so it'll be easier for me to answer. And make it clearer as to which question I'm answering.

1 & 2, since I think they're quite related.
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3)
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4) (Lengthy and some new speculation.)
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08-08-2014 at 08:04 AM
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Ezlo
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More idle Pit Thing and Truth Vessel Speculation.

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08-08-2014 at 08:16 AM
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tempestadept
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If the Pit Thing could just speak in the True Tongue, there's no reason for him not to do it in TSS. Beethro already knows it, and the Pit Thing doesn't have as limited knowledge as single vessels.
08-08-2014 at 12:21 PM
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xpym
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Drgamer wrote:
I haven't played the Smitemaster Selection where Beethro finds out about the vacancy
Wasn't this a major plot point in TCB? Like when the 1st of his profession gets to ask a question and the 1st Watcher is supposed to answer it? And when Beethro finally gets to the Lowest Point he finds out that there's nobody there.

Drgamer wrote:
Alternatively after Jebowdly died, it became an 'empty' position. More symbolic than functional, with the actual function elsewhere.
If so, it was still hidden from the common masses. I think it was in the FtFT SMS, there was a message sent throughout the empire to the point that "don't believe the lies that the 1st Slayer spreads about the 1st Watcher".

I guess that indeed Jebowdly was the only 1st Watcher, and both the Patrons and the Archivists knew about his absence and were uninterested in having an overseer anyway. The problem is that Jebowdly existed more than 10 thousand years ago, since the world was upside-down in the CiaE, meaning that it was before the previous Turning. Although I suppose we were never told the average lifespan of humans in Eighth it's hard to imagine it being thousands of years and consequently anyone believing that someone could have lived that long.

tempestadept wrote:
If the Pit Thing could just speak in the True Tongue, there's no reason for him not to do it in TSS. Beethro already knows it, and the Pit Thing doesn't have as limited knowledge as single vessels.
The Pit Thing actually made a remark to Beethro that it didn't like the True Tongue since it was limited in its scope.

[Last edited by xpym at 08-08-2014 02:56 PM]
08-08-2014 at 01:03 PM
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hyperme
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icon Re: TSS: Afterthought Speculation (+1)  
Tangential Pit Thing speculation:

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Time Stuff:

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08-08-2014 at 02:48 PM
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mrimer
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hyperme wrote:
Anyhow, I get the impression, based on the map during Chapter 5,
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Yes
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Gandalf? Yes... That's what they used to call me.
Gandalf the Grey. That was my name.
I am Gandalf the White.
And I come back to you now at the turn of the tide.

[Last edited by mrimer at 08-08-2014 03:42 PM]
08-08-2014 at 03:42 PM
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Pinnacle
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Re: the Great Maelstrom
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Once (adv.): Enough.
Twice (adv.): Once too often.
~Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary
08-08-2014 at 03:45 PM
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Drgamer
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xpym wrote:
Drgamer wrote:
I haven't played the Smitemaster Selection where Beethro finds out about the vacancy
Wasn't this a major plot point in TCB? Like when the 1st of his profession gets to ask a question and the 1st Watcher is supposed to answer it? And when Beethro finally gets to the Lowest Point he finds out that there's nobody there.
Whoops, that's my bad; It's been awhile since I played that part of TCB.
xpym wrote:
Drgamer wrote:
Alternatively after Jebowdly died, it became an 'empty' position. More symbolic than functional, with the actual function elsewhere.
If so, it was still hidden from the common masses. I think it was in the FtFT SMS, there was a message sent throughout the empire to the point that "don't believe the lies that the 1st Slayer spreads about the 1st Watcher".

I guess that indeed Jebowdly was the only 1st Watcher, and both the Patrons and the Archivists knew about his absence and were uninterested in having an overseer anyway. The problem is that Jebowdly existed more than 10 thousand years ago, since the world was upside-down in the CiaE, meaning that it was before the previous Turning. Although I suppose we were never told the average lifespan of humans in Eighth it's hard to imagine it being thousands of years and consequently anyone believing that someone could have lived that long.
Well the message didn't specifically say 'Jebowdly, 1st Watcher', so it seems to be hard to tell either way.

As for the life span, there are a few possibilities. The Empire could have just spread the message around that Jebowdly, 1st Watcher was still alive. There's also the fact that Vat borns live longer than surfacers. The old 1st Archivist said as much, saying he could outlast Beethro by centuries. Jebowdly being not a vat born would most likely be kept a secret since it would mean he was a surfacer, even if he wasn't from the same surface.

A quick summary of the possibilities I currently see:
1) 1st Watcher Jebowdly dies > This fact is kept secret > 1st Watcher is an empty, figurehead position, using Jebowdly's reputation for whatever is needed. This might have originally been done to help keep the Empire stable, early on, and became tradition/regulation to keep this secret.
2) 1st Watcher Jebowdly dies > This fact becomes well known > 1st Watcher is not filled by someone else. > The position is still an empty figurehead position, but the Empire at large thinks it's filled by someone.
08-08-2014 at 09:51 PM
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xpym
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Drgamer wrote:
There's also the fact that Vat borns live longer than surfacers. The old 1st Archivist said as much, saying he could outlast Beethro by centuries.
Seems like I forgot this particular exchange, now it makes more sense.

Also, I've thought of something else, the proto-empire could have made use of that time seal that Beethro fixed and moved some time into the future, so the timeframe is unclear.
08-08-2014 at 10:05 PM
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Fang
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I'm pretty sure CiaE is a lot closer to Beethro's time than 10,000 years ago. It already mentions the figureheads who gave their names to the continents, meaning it's probably way closer to... maybe 3,000 years or so before Beethro's time. It took a long time for tribes on Earth to produce immense countries like Italy, and separations of continents seem to be very stable at Beethro's time. Our Earth took ~3k years, maybe, from the founding of the first big countries (with the Roman Empire and such) to get to the point we're at today, so it's not a far cry to think of it to be that way for them too.

Not to mention, the surfacers in Beethro's time are still vastly under-developed in terms of technology than we are on Earth, but the Empire vastly outdoes us in some ways. That's why I can't really think it's been more than 3k years since CiaE, and I'd even say it's closer to 2.5k, which would be my real initial estimation, placing their civilization at around the 15th century in terms of development, if we compare it to our time.

Edit: This actually begs the question, how old was Jebowdly? He seems pretty young and excitable, so he can't have been that old. All in all, I'd definitely say that non-vatborn can live around 200 years old, maybe 250 maximum. Plenty of time for the Empire to begin and build itself up.

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[Last edited by Fang at 08-09-2014 04:12 AM]
08-09-2014 at 04:08 AM
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Pinnacle
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Fang wrote:
I'm pretty sure CiaE is a lot closer to Beethro's time than 10,000 years ago. It already mentions the figureheads who gave their names to the continents, meaning it's probably way closer to... maybe 3,000 years or so before Beethro's time. It took a long time for tribes on Earth to produce immense countries like Italy, and separations of continents seem to be very stable at Beethro's time. Our Earth took ~3k years, maybe, from the founding of the first big countries (with the Roman Empire and such) to get to the point we're at today, so it's not a far cry to think of it to be that way for them too.

Not to mention, the surfacers in Beethro's time are still vastly under-developed in terms of technology than we are on Earth, but the Empire vastly outdoes us in some ways. That's why I can't really think it's been more than 3k years since CiaE, and I'd even say it's closer to 2.5k, which would be my real initial estimation, placing their civilization at around the 15th century in terms of development, if we compare it to our time.

Can't be. The events of TSS take place over the course of several months before the Turning. The Turning is every 10000 years exactly. CiaE takes place before the previous Turning, so it has to be between 10K and 20K years back.

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08-09-2014 at 04:11 AM
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Fang
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Pinnacle wrote: CiaE takes place before the previous Turning, so it has to be between 10K and 20K years back.

Has that been confirmed? Just seems like it already happened, since they're finding remains of the previous civilization, not to mention the figureheads who found the continents and gave them their names.

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[Last edited by Fang at 08-09-2014 04:13 AM]
08-09-2014 at 04:13 AM
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Pinnacle
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It's pretty clearly the Rooted Empire before going underground (post-Turning, the place where they break ground is Lowest Point.) It's also heavily implied (and by heavily I mean stopping just short of saying it outright, he's "in pursuit of greatness", he's an idiot, and he "likes to stand around and watch") that Jebowdly is First Watcher.

Oh, and the fact that the Pit Thing explicitly says you're going back ten thousand years.

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Once (adv.): Enough.
Twice (adv.): Once too often.
~Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary

[Last edited by Pinnacle at 08-09-2014 04:34 AM]
08-09-2014 at 04:16 AM
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Drgamer
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Well I think the Pit Thing is more 'poetic' about saying it: That Beethro is going to go far enough back that the world would flip twice. And since he had experienced an early turn, it translates to at least around 10k years. And assuming Jebowdly lives a normal surfacer life span , then it wouldn't be too much more than that.

(There's no way Jebowdly was actually a vatborn; if he was, then he would have remembered the Empire, and understand why things were upside down. Plus I doubt vatborn would last an entire 10k years.)

There's also the fact that everything is 'built upside down', in that one area. What they found was the previous Empires stuff. In game some of the level descriptions mentions that there was evidence of previous Empires, but no 'heart'. At least I don't think there was. It's possible that this heart is part of what keeps vatborn alive for so long; being disconnected from it by the turning might cause them to age at the same rate as a surfacer. It's a bit hard to tell if it was meant as a physical thing, or the more metaphorical 'heart of the city' kind of definition.

The level descriptions of 'finding primitive technology amongst older, more advanced technology' is probably remnants of the pre-empire civilization.

And I thought one of the level descriptions outright states Jebowdly became 1st Watcher, not out of skill, but by the simple fact that he was the first one to be there. The Lemming Beach one. "1st Watcher was perhaps the original example of this practice." with the very next sentence ending in "and Jebowdly got there first." It also describes him becoming a symbol to try to maintain 'stability and safety'. So it does tie in to them at least use 1st Watcher as a figurehead position.
08-09-2014 at 08:39 AM
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hyperme
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Time Travel Technology:

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08-15-2014 at 12:46 PM
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Pearls
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Necro thread time.

So I think I'm finally going to get around to LPing TSS and just wanted to let you all know that I'll be, uh, speculating on your speculations during the videos. This thread makes me super happy because it resulted in precisely the kind of musing I was truly going for regarding certain details.

But, I think it would be best to ask, perhaps with permission, how much insight would everyone like? Sometimes it's more fun when mysteries remain mysterious, and sometimes people like to know things precisely. Maybe a healthy mix of both? I'm looking for some feedback on the best format here as I solve rooms. Maybe I shouldn't say anything at all! Thoughts? Feelings? Let me know. :)

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06-15-2015 at 05:43 PM
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I for one would love to hear it all. I say go all out. I suppose it would be good form to "spoiler alert" ahead of time for people who would rather remain in the dark. Maybe save the plot speculations for the end of an episode, or for just at the intro texts, so that people can watch the rest of the LP and remain blissfully ignorant.

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06-15-2015 at 06:03 PM
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