I haven't watched/listened to the DROD developer interview yet, so I don't know how much would confirm/deny anything.
xpym wrote:
This speculation about the Pit Thing is very enlightening, thanks everyone. I have another couple of questions, regarding the 1st Watcher. The only definite thing I learned about this position is that Jebowdly dude was the "first" 1st Watcher, respected despite his incompetence. But how did it become vacant, who knew about this and was interested in covering it up, and for what purpose?
Also, I presume that the "Mothingness", other than being an ascended in-joke, is a metaphor for the empire's warped ideology.
My understanding, though I haven't played the Smitemaster Selection where Beethro finds out about the vacancy, is that Jebowdly was the
only 1st Watcher. There are hints that him having the position was a sort of comforting thing. A constant. Him being alive, without being alive would have been thought to be important to keeping the Empire together. And then it became tradition.
I'm uncertain if the Empire just covered up his death, or it was a gradual 'hiding away' kind of thing. Where Jebowdly was falling ill, and someone decided that they should make preparations for his death.
Alternatively after Jebowdly died, it became an 'empty' position. More symbolic than functional, with the actual function elsewhere.
A key point that I'm unsure of is how 'classified'/restricted the level descriptions are. Specifically the one that talks about Jebowdly posthumously. If it's secret, then Jebowdly could very well have been the only 1st Watcher. I'm guessing that the fact that he
wasn't a vatborn is kept secret, however. Him being from a surface could have become secret after all the non-vatborn were created.
enzi666 wrote:
I'm still wraping my head around the pit thing and it's motivations. Back in JtRH it was more hostile, playing with Beethros mind and his feelings.
The way I interpret it, is that the pit thing was created a very long time ago as means to get answers to philosophical questions. Questions there is no answer to. It also couldn't answer how to stop the turning. When the creators realised this they deemed it worthless therefore, "left behind like putrid milk".
There are still a lot of questions:
1) Why does the pit thing die after telling the truth?
2) Why does giving straight answers give it physical pain?
3) What was the reason to suddenly help Beethro?
4) Is the farrow child really related or does the pit thing only refers to her as sister because these 2 forces survive the turning?
Seeing the farrow child/pit thing as duality for surfacers/empire. It's also the first time these two work together to overcome the impossible. Maybe that's the reason the pit thing changed it's mind about Beethro.
I hope this discussion keeps on going and we can also solve this puzzle!
I numbered your questions so it'll be easier for me to answer. And make it clearer as to which question I'm answering.
1 & 2, since I think they're quite related.
Click here to view the secret text
×I'm going to answer this under the impression/theory that empire creates Truth Vessels to be as close to Ironk (the farrow child) as possible, then dumped them in a pit, eventually giving way to the Pit Thing.
And there are some hints that the Turning might be a cycle, so more and more Truth Vessels get dumped into the Pit Thing 'network'. What with the 'network of gentle strangulations', that the Truth Vessels say the Pit Thing is.
Sort of like playing a record, flipping it and playing that side. And repeating the process. Or like the Futurama episode with the 'time travel into the future' machine, except with an entirely different timeline smooshed in between.
What I personally think, at least at my present understanding, is that because of the Truth Vessel origins, the Pit Thing retains some of their limitations. But over time it got warped. It's possible that no matter what the Pit Thing says in the True Tongue, he suffers no pain. In a way, the True Tongue is quite poetic. It's blunt and limited, but it's still up for interpretation. For complicated things, at least.
But once the Pit Thing speaks outside of the True Tongue, he has to speak in metaphor/simile. He's simply incapable of speaking plainly and clearly. It runs counter to his very being. So his organs rupture and his body screams out in pain.
But it's possible Beethro freed him from that. He did say that Beethro killed him, but also saved him.
3)
Click here to view the secret text
×
Beethro is essentially a 'new toy' for the Pit Thing. I think he's getting a feel for how Beethro thinks. Nudging him along to help ensure he does what he needs to do, but still leaving things up to chance. The Pit Thing does hate predictability.
The more direct helping could very well be the Pit Thing realizing that it's something he has to do. Beethro was a tad stubborn in accepting something that was radically against his worldview. And time was running out, after all.
4) (Lengthy and some new speculation.)
Click here to view the secret text
×
This also ties back into 1 & 2. At least the theory behind my answer to those two. Ironk and the Pit Thing might not be related to each other by 'blood', but they would have similar 'dna' for lack of a better word. The Empire used Ironk as the base for the recipe, as close as they could get, and got the Truth Vessels. And then the Turth Vessels formed the Pit Thing.
Probably to Ironk, the Truth Vessels would be 'Pit Thing cells', or similar. They don't really have a mind of their own, as far as I can tell. Each one is like a single neuron cell. Thinking about it, the Pit Thing's icon does look rather neuron-like. Almost as if it was an intended hint, staring at our faces the entire time. Without us being able to realize it, lacking the full picture until TSS came out.
It's possible Ironk had a similar origin, from the 'Empire' that actually created the vats. Which brings to mind even more questions. Why would they make Ironk? Was it a weapon, a last ditch effort to defeat their enemies, in one great big turning? Or was it just an attempt to see what was on the second surface? Without fully understanding the consequences.
Which makes me wonder, was the Eighth
always like it was? A wedge that fills up the other 7/8ths by 'wrapping around'. (At least that's what I'm understanding, both edges of the map connect to each other.
If before Ironk existed, the Eighth was instead a spherical planet, then it kind of terrifies me as to what happened to the rest of it. After all, Ironk has a glowing Eighth over/in her. (It's kind of hard to tell at the angle) I wonder what would happen if someone were to somehow make that a circle.
And of course this line of thinking also made me think of one other place/time. The whole Experiment of Ages. Whatever happened to the area that
was there? Was the Eighth actually the Seventh before hand? Is there just a giant pit that leads to a place outside of time? Specifically some sort of Chasm of Time.
Which actually would make some amount of sense. This could very be the pit that the Truth Vessels were dumped into, and (metaphorically or possibly even literally) walled off into. That would explain why the Pit Thing somehow got into the pit of Eye of the Storm. EotS being how it is could very well have warped the Truth Vessels.
And the fact that Beethro got into and out of could have resulted in the Pit Thing finding a way out. And since it's a place outside of time, he could have followed a different path out, after realizing what to look for.
Alternatively it's just the Pit Things neural network thing seeping through because there was a pit in EoA to link the two. The fact that the Pit Thing doesn't speak up there doesn't make this likely.
Though thinking about it there is one thing about EotS and EoA that isn't quite explained. It's clear what happened to the one who became the Temporal Auntlich, but what happened to the other person who disappeared at the same time? Could that person have been dropped elsewhere. And changed differently. Perhaps changed into Ironk. Maybe even some Truth Vessels got merged in the process. Which would result in a sort of expansion of my theory sparked by the origin of Budkin. Not only is Beethro responsible for his own existing, he would be responsible for the entire Eighth to exist in the first place. At least, the Eighth and the turning cycle. The Truth Vessels would also not exist in this case, without being inspired by Ironk who was
created because the Truth Vessels existed. It would also explain why the Empire was only able to make the Truth Vessels and not another Ironk, despite trying to get as close as possible with their recipe. They simply couldn't even understand what they needed.
Something that did occur to me is that the Temporal Aumtlich could have lost a few copies of himself into the pit, becoming part of the Pit Thing. This could very well make Ironk and the Pit Thing brother and sister, especially if the two Aumtlich-likes were brother and sister. I don't think it's mentioned what the relationship between those two were.
Though that does make me wonder: Did they really forget to set up the tuning fork the first time? Or did someone else take it out and hide it in the storage?
Thank you for asking; in typing these answers it made me think back and make some possible connections. It would be very interesting if I actually stumbled upon the actual origin to Ironk/the Farrow Child. If there is indeed one written out already.