vinheim
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At this point it sounds a bit like elitism

I do agree that no UU in KDD is where the satisfaction comes from. KDD rooms are so full of bull that it's incredibly satisfying to finally beat each one, and people will miss that experience, but we can't really shun newer people to the game.

imo maybe it could introduce a difficulty option when you load up KDD that automatically sets the undo option and the difficulty options are Doom/DMC-like to offend the player for using UU. Most people aren't offended by this too negatively in those games.

hyperme
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bwross wrote:
Which is my point (I haven't left out fun at all). If you want to have fun, play something else. If you want to have fun and play KDD, and you're good enough to finish TSS, play it under its own rules in AE, cause it ain't much fun anyways, so you might as well make a retro play adventure out of it, and get some saw sharpening to boot (and see the AE ending... which wasn't quite the ending text I remember, so maybe my first DROD was the pre-AE Caravel?). Nothing wrong with learning to clean up your tactics, gain better intuition about how much can be done in a cycle (because of the lack of an on screen clock, you need to check manually or count), and you can enjoy the novel puzzles you don't seen much anymore (like stuff hidden under tar... playing with transparent tar is really cheating yourself here... this hold doesn't offer too much, so really, don't go subtracting things, just learn to enjoy the experience for it's novelty in this one hold... like with UU, save the transparent tar for modern stuff).

The thing about just blowing through with TSS level experience and UU is that all you get is a thing... a check mark saying all the rooms are complete. The hordes, the manoeuvring, the puzzles... barely get to the level of the first thing you might have to do in an average TSS room. It will be a long walk with no resistance. But if you make it into a retro gaming adventure, you can turn it into an experience. And although you'll probably still blow through it... at least there will be the feeling of engagement from being focused and experiencing things the way they once were. When it comes to happiness and fun, experiences trump things. The enjoyment of things is fleeting in comparison to a good experience.

So my advice is that if people want to visit KDD (or other old holds), they make experiences out of the trip. For fun's sake. But everyone's still free to blow through KDD with UU and get the short-lived hollow whoop of doing the unimpressive. It won't be that fun for experienced players, and beginners will do a bunch of types of puzzles they'll never see again combined with being able to avoid learning things they should thanks to UU (because really, frustration can be a good learning tool, but frustration plus an easy way out is pretty much pessimal for learning, because things very quickly turn to getting any answer and not a solution). Beginners shouldn't be playing KDD at all, they should come back to it when they're comfortable with things.

I... you... what?

As far as I can tell, you are actually, literally, non-ironically suggesting that people who play KDD with undo are having fun wrong. I'm sorry, but other than some bizarre puzzle game elitism, I cannot understand how someone can type this out and be completely serious.

Also most retro games are terrible design by modern standards. It's possible to make something difficult without making it tedious, but people irrationally love their tedium for some reason.

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KevG
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Once upon a time DROD only had 25 levels. There were no user made level. There was no high score system or even the concept of optimization. It made sense to artificially extend the life of the game by making players repeat a room after any mistake.

Now DROD has more content than all but a few players will ever finish. It also has a high score system which incentivizes replaying rooms. This is how a modern game is designed and it makes sense to take a modern gaming approach and include unlimited undo.

There is an argument to be made that UU will have a dilatory affect on the high score system. But, if you don't actively try and compete for high scores the inclusion of UU in the game doesn't affect you at all. Simply don't use it and accept that other players are allowed to decide for themselves how to play a game.

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[Last edited by KevG at 07-09-2014 02:28 PM]

Doom
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I'm not sure why we're complaining about tar rooms in KDD when there's stuff like TSS: MF: 1E2N in the new official hold. The difference between playing this with/without UU is enormous, you're practically forced into it. I couldn't even hit any of the checkpoints in my solution.

KevG wrote:
But, if you don't actively try and compete for high scores the inclusion of UU in the game doesn't affect you at all.

I would count promoting this kind of room design as "affecting me at all". Even Nuntar said earlier that he's adding an achievement in his hold that he'd feel bad about if there wasn't UU in the game.

Trial and error is still trial and error whether you go back with checkpoints or multiple undos, which is why rooms that require UU to be fun are probably not very good rooms to begin with.

On the flipside it has at least turned out to be good for fixing small mistakes that single undo isn't enough for...

jdyer
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The level of Undo I set (2) is not an option on the poll.

(I picked 2 because I want to undo fingerslips, and sometimes those come in pairs, but I've never needed a 3-undo in that circumstance.)

I was planning to try UU when I needed it but I've been good with checkpoints so far.

KevG
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Doom wrote:
I'm not sure why we're complaining about tar rooms in KDD when there's stuff like TSS: MF: 1E2N in the new official hold. The difference between playing this with/without UU is enormous, you're practically forced into it. I couldn't even hit any of the checkpoints in my solution.

KevG wrote:
But, if you don't actively try and compete for high scores the inclusion of UU in the game doesn't affect you at all.

I would count promoting this kind of room design as "affecting me at all". Even Nuntar said earlier that he's adding an achievement in his hold that he'd feel bad about if there wasn't UU in the game.

Trial and error is still trial and error whether you go back with checkpoints or multiple undos, which is why rooms that require UU to be fun are probably not very good rooms to begin with.

On the flipside it has at least turned out to be good for fixing small mistakes that single undo isn't enough for...

Fair enough, that was too extreme a statement. But, pure trial and error rooms can be discouraged at the architectural board level. UU is a major time saver. In a complicated room it's possible to spend hours just regurgitating previous moves. This is neither fun nor educational. While in theory proper checkpointing would solve the problem, an architect can't predict where the proper placement for them is when optimizing without optimizing the room themselves.

komachi
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I will never use the UU. I think it's useful when you need to test a room you've made, but if you are playing a room with 1 undo move I think it's enough.

phoenix-girl
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I am glad I happened upon this post as I did not even know about the UU. I don't know if I will use it, as I am still playing DROD-4 but, if frustration is taking away from my enjoyment of the game, and UU can help, then I will use it. In DROD-4 I am enjoying being able to undo my dying with the "undo" key. But... now that I think about it... perhaps this is just a bug in my game; why else would there be checkpoints, if everyone could simply "undo" a death? Or do other people simply not use it?

RabidChild wrote:
Kids today. Back in my day we had to beat the three tar mother room with no undo and no checkpoints. One mistake and we had to start all over. And we liked it.

I did, I really did like it.

By the way, since we are talking about settings, may I ask if anyone knows what the "special command" key does? I've not been able to figure it out.

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silver
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hyperme wrote:

bwross wrote:
Which is my point (I haven't left out fun at all). If you want to have fun, play something else.

I... you... what?
As far as I can tell, you are actually, literally, non-ironically suggesting that people who play KDD with undo are having fun wrong.

This. So much this.

You are not the arbiter of what I consider fun. Fun is inherently subjective. It's a matter of opinion. It's like telling people they are wrong for liking the color blue.

Plus, if I put on my "empathy for people selling games" shoes, I find all kinds of problems with the statement "if you want to have fun, play something else."

I'm remind of an article by Shamus Young about how his life experience is so much different than mine that different levels of engagements are required to make things fun for him... I don't think this is the exact link I'm remembering, but it's similar http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=22885

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[Last edited by silver at 07-09-2014 08:07 PM]

Banjooie
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Huh. I thought I enjoyed playing TSS.

bwross, thank you for clariying that I did not, in fact, enjoy the game.

Nuntar
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phoenix-girl wrote: By the way, since we are talking about settings, may I ask if anyone knows what the "special command" key does? I've not been able to figure it out.

Most of the time, it does nothing but takes up a move, so it's an alternative to "wait".

Scripts can test for whether "special command" is pressed, and some holds (including some rooms in TSS) use this for various functions. There's no standard function, so any hold that uses the special command key should include an explanation of how it's used in that hold.

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Fang
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Nuntar wrote:

phoenix-girl wrote: By the way, since we are talking about settings, may I ask if anyone knows what the "special command" key does? I've not been able to figure it out.

Most of the time, it does nothing but takes up a move, so it's an alternative to "wait".

Scripts can test for whether "special command" is pressed, and some holds (including some rooms in TSS) use this for various functions. There's no standard function, so any hold that uses the special command key should include an explanation of how it's used in that hold.

For instance, in my Grand Library hold that will eventually see the light of day, I plan to use the special command key to take the player to the map of the library for a quick travel to the subjects.

Also, so as to not be entirely off-topic, I'd say UU makes some levels a lot less frightening and/or annoying, such as Abyssal Fortress. And in fact, with it I actually contemplate finishing my re-run of TCB rather than eventually stopping at that level.

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bwross
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hyperme wrote:
As far as I can tell, you are actually, literally, non-ironically suggesting that people who play KDD with undo are having fun wrong.

Not at all. I'm saying that if you go into KDD thinking that UU is going to fix it and get you to the end and make it somehow better to play, you're wrong. UU doesn't do that for KDD. You'll just get to the end and wonder what the fuss was about. You need to go in understanding this, and why if you want to get the most out of KDD, you need to make it something more. Could be anything, Romantic Idealism or nostalgia or whatnot.

hyperme wrote:
Also most retro games are terrible design by modern standards. It's possible to make something difficult without making it tedious, but people irrationally love their tedium for some reason.

And that's just it. If you want to talk tedium, the tedium in KDD for experienced players isn't in difficulty, or in being Nintendo-hard and sending them back to the beginning of the room again and again to progress one step further at a time. It's in that it's a long hold, with some good content in it spread out over a lot of repetition... one of the problems is rooms that are made big just to fill all the space, so you have to do things like sweep up hundreds of trapdoors, with no monsters or tricks... just back and forth again and again. UU is not a fix for the tedium in KDD. There's no point for an experienced player to go back to KDD now that they have UU and expect it to make things better, it doesn't. I mean, I thought I might finally miss having undo on the last level... I remembered my frustration there with the lack of undo and savepoints the first time. But KDD was made a long time a go, and difficulties naturally inflate over time. So when I got there, I was completely surprised... the room I was most dreading and expecting to experience pain with, was a "horde" room with EIGHT tar babies produced a cycle. Not a horde room by any means any more, and although I was harassed by the Neather, the tar babies never were a threat. If you want to get through that tedium, UU isn't what you need... you need to make it into something better than it is. Going for the AE ending is one way. That won't give you any option on undo... but if you want some you can do the remake, but the ending isn't the same and although it has the voice, it's just a hack of the AE one, that isn't the same.

What KDD needs is a digest version, not a port (or even better, a reboot/remake). That way people that want to see the good bits can see them and play them in an hour or two, and better get a feel for what was good about it without the tedium that washes that out.

silver wrote: Plus, if I put on my "empathy for people selling games" shoes, I find all kinds of problems with the statement "if you want to have fun, play something else."

Yes, it's fun to cherry pick and take quotes out of context. I wasn't saying that you couldn't have fun with KDD (that came after and in other posts)... or that KDD was nonfun or unfun or whatever. I was saying that there are dozens of better holds you could be playing for a lot more fun. KDD just isn't that fun a hold... its time is past. You need something more (nostalgia because it's the first hold you played works, but if you didn't, you didn't miss much, bringing a tac nuke to a knife fight doesn't make it more exciting, and experience from playing through things like TSS is counts as one even without UU (really, there are many rooms in there that an experienced player will stop dead so fast they'll be wondering what the point was)), otherwise it's just long and tedious and your time would be better spent playing better holds first. If you have nothing better left to play, then go for it. Just remember, a good attitude is important going in to this one. That's why I don't have any problems with the types of puzzles other people hate... I see an orb puzzle, and don't say "Icky Orb Puzzle!"... I see a puzzle, just like the other puzzles that need to be solved. If you can bring this positive outlook to KDD and see its obsolete puzzles as real puzzles like modern lynchpins you can certainly have fun with or without undo or checkpoints or whatnot... it shouldn't matter, because you'll have a smile on your face, even with the tedium. But again, that's making your own fun. KDD doesn't supply that.

And most importantly... no one should have to feel that they need to play KDD for any reason. But if you are, it helps to have a good reason that will make it a better experience and not just playing it because it was first or its there. The AE ending it a good reason... I wanted to see that again, KDD2 couldn't give me that, and so I made the zero undo a positive part of my experience (saw sharpening) instead of going in with the mindset that I was going to hate not having undo. Positive outlook... that's what I go for. And so I don't care how other people have fun that would be a bummer, I'm only giving advice here. Take it or leave it. I don't care.

Banjooie wrote:
Huh. I thought I enjoyed playing TSS.

bwross, thank you for clariying that I did not, in fact, enjoy the game.

Okay... I'm going to have to call BS here. At no time have I ever said or implied anything about TSS and people not enjoying it because of UU (even before it came out, and certainly not now). My position has always been, and will always be, that TSS + UU will-be/is/was suitably fun for people because of the simple fact that it was designed in the UU environment. It would have been impossible for it to be anything but, because if UU did diminish a room to the point where it was remarkably less fun... it would have been made better, because UU was in the game. And it shows throughout the game.

So, I'm going to have to protest at you defaming me by name, with a position I do not hold that has nothing to do with the discussion at hand. I don't like doing that, but I really can't let such a thing go.

Fang wrote:
Also, so as to not be entirely off-topic, I'd say UU makes some levels a lot less frightening and/or annoying, such as Abyssal Fortress. And in fact, with it I actually contemplate finishing my re-run of TCB rather than eventually stopping at that level.

Personally, its Upper Lowest where I tend to stop my reruns. UU would not change my mind there, though. The addition of a chainsaw weapon token that lets me deal with Builders would (after all, if Builders aren't the sort of problem that can't be solved with a RBS, that just means I need a different weapon).

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[Last edited by bwross at 07-10-2014 07:11 AM]

blorx1
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Considering the number of pits in that builder level, you could probably get by with a really big stick.

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mattw0520
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I want to try to keep the undo setting to one move. I know from playing Flash DROD that more than one undo encourages me to play sloppy -- just throw my body at a horde and hope my sword hits stuff. I don't know if I'll be able to resist the temptation once the difficulty ratchets up, but I hate completing a room and feeling like I don't fully deserve the victory.

I'm not saying UU or Undo+ makes one a sloppy player, just that it would me.

mrimer
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It's kinda like the effect that playing speed chess has on a player or something similar. Pluses and minuses.

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[Last edited by mrimer at 07-12-2014 07:02 AM]