[Post Deleted] Nuntar wrote:
bwross wrote:
Yep, that's the effect I said UU has, and it shows in TSS.
I really don't think what you're seeing has much to do with UU.
Yes, it's not entirely about UU... I took in consideration the natural inflation over time. But there are lots of little things I've noticed that suggest an influence from having UU. Things like puzzles where you need to manipulate things before starting, but don't have a good checkpoint to save that (AL:1N1E doesn't have a checkpoint at all, it's only a few moves, but I had to do it a couple times).
The thing is that TSS is, as Trickster posted, under UU, it's still difficult and requires thought... which is to be expected. It was developed for an environment with UU. It would be surprising if it wasn't. Any slack UU creates will be taken up, because the public comfort level of tension for puzzles is still below the level of complexity that could have been done (which has a market, but it's not appropriate for a main line game, which must appeal widely). If you don't take up that slack, then the game would be less engaging that previous holds... but you don't have to worry about doing that, because it happens naturally, because architects are going to try to design more engaging holds (which is where the natural inflation comes from).
I can speak only for myself, not all architects, but I build rooms that I hope players will enjoy. Tricky execution rooms becoming more fun and less frustrating makes me more inclined to build rooms like that, not less.
Yes, as I said "
tricky"
execution rooms certainly work. And that UU can make them more fun for more people means that they can be used more often... either made particularly tricky by themselves or just combined with other things. That isn't a bad thing. And I do expect it to happen more. But those aren't the old rooms that get belittled, they're capable of thriving in the new environment and evolving to new levels (which is good).
Take a room like TCB Pirates Lair 4N1W, and ignore the red herring potion (because that only works once, and the room is quite replayable). The room is straight forward, and the execution isn't particularly tricky. But it is fun and relaxing... the tension comes from getting yourself charging around doing basic tactical play against a large horde and occasionally getting caught up in a tight spot and trying to work your way out of it. With UU, you're never really caught, and never have much at stake (it doesn't take many undoes to get out of any problem in that room, other than the red herring). The simplicity of the room makes it like poker... it's not that interesting without stakes. You can have a little fun playing for matchsticks, but it's a much diminished game that way.
As for red herrings (because I said to ignore it before, I should cover it to be proper)... that room has it's right at the start, so no level of undo will help, you just restart. Red herrings that can cost you more will lose a bit of potency. But checkpoints already take a good chunk of that away (unless the red herring is the check point, or the room is very badly checkpointed), so it isn't much, but they also get belittled a bit there. I'd still like to see more of them... holds where everything in every room is important have the issue that that provides outside information. The occasional good red herring that needs to be eliminated reduces that assumption, and so they provide tension that way outside of lost stakes, and UU doesn't really affect that.
Note belittling doesn't mean that the room becomes bad, or boring, or anything like that... it means that it becomes somewhat less fun. And so people will enjoy them less, which will give you less reason to make that room, and more reason to tweak it something to add some fun back. That's the evolution I'm talking about... UU is a substantial change to game play, it definitiely will have subtle effects going forward, but they will certainly happen. But that's not an entirely bad or good thing, it's neutral. Evolution works like that... some old things might get lost, and the ones that survive either fit perfectly or can slightly change to fit (ie hiding stuff under tarstuff doesn't work so well with transparency available, but cutting tarstuff with the complication of stuff in it does still work, and because there's no need to explore under the tarstuff to figure out the layout, more complicated puzzles can be made in that form).
For example, in my beginners' hold Bubble Wrap, Eighth Level 2S1E contains two force arrow mazes with queens on the outside sending roaches in, and a queen timer. It's pure execution, and not too difficult. But there's also an achievement, "Slow Start, Fast Finish", if you don't enter the second maze until turn 150 or later, and still complete the room. Without UU in the editor, I wouldn't have discovered this was possible. Without UU in the game, I would have felt much more guilty about inflicting it on players.
Which is exactly what I'm talking about. UU in game play changes the environment, giving you more room to apply tension you wouldn't otherwise. That's all I've been saying here.
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