12th Archivist
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Hey, why not?

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Yes, one (or sometimes more) new element introduced *each level*. I personally liked it, but I know most people did not. This was changed in GatEB and Flood Warning, where new elements were uncommon and many levels focused on existing elements. I think TCB could have been better if it was a new element for every odd level, and exploring the uses of the new element / using old elements every even level. Will TSS be like GatEB, like TCB, or like the situation I just described?

Also, there were about a dozen other new elements that did not fit into one of these levels in any way, including cracked/broken orbs and other player roles and... Was this to let unofficial architects play with and build puzzles around these elements on their own?

Reviewing the list, it seems that TCB only had 24 major puzzle levels? Am I missing something?



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mrimer
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12th Archivist wrote:
Will TSS be like GatEB, like TCB, or like the situation I just described?

It will likely be somewhere in between.

Also, there were about a dozen other new elements that did not fit into one of these levels in any way, including cracked/broken orbs and other player roles and... Was this to let unofficial architects play with and build puzzles around these elements on their own?

It's because we didn't listen to Danforth. We wanted to provide more stuff in the game engine, because someone was interested to have it available. Of course, we can't have the official holds thoroughly mine all of the game elements -- there are 25,000 rooms published on CaravelNet now, and I'm sure architects will keep thinking up new ways for various elements to interact.

Reviewing the list, it seems that TCB only had 24 major puzzle levels? Am I missing something?

Yes, you're probably right.

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TFMurphy
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12th Archivist wrote:
Yes, one (or sometimes more) new element introduced *each level*. I personally liked it, but I know most people did not. This was changed in GatEB and Flood Warning, where new elements were uncommon and many levels focused on existing elements.

This statement seems to be a bit lacking in context. Both JtRH and GatEB were built with newcomers in mind, and if you start with those, then you certainly get about one new element per level there. Even Flood Warning tiers what new elements are explored per level (you don't see the Soldier Horn until Ground Support, or the Squad Horn until Dam Slam). KDD does admittedly have a lesser density of new elements since it's still 25 levels but not as much selection of elements to use... but it still found ways to use things very differently, so most levels have a puzzle theme that you wouldn't have encountered in an earlier level.

The only thing that really sets TCB apart is that it was built as a hold intended for a veteran player, but still tiered enough to allow a newcomer time to adjust. So you not only have old elements come into play in stages, but you have the usual supply of new elements per level too. So a newcomer is seeing a good two or three elements they may be unfamiliar with per level. (Yes, there are tutorial rooms in TCB for many of the old elements, but they're just a quick introduction to them, and it takes a good few puzzle rooms before a player can start getting comfortable with just a single new element.)

Moo
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Maybe what it really needs then is a list of elements introduced in each level of each hold, with an indication whether it was an element also "new" for the engine?

Rheb
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One thing I realized seeing this list is that a list of elements not included in GatEB could be pretty interesting. I can see how architects would want to build levels using the GatEB editor for newcomers who have only played the one game.

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[Last edited by Rheb at 06-08-2012 02:29 PM]

12th Archivist
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Rheb wrote:
One thing I realized seeing this list is that a list of elements not included in GatEB could be pretty interesting. I can see how architects would want to build levels using the GatEB editor for newcomers who have only played the one game.

That... is actually a really cool idea! Imagine creating an official-like hold with a tutorial on GatEB's provided elements, and have the puzzle levels introduce new (introduced in TCB) elements over time!

I still need to finish GatEB before I can make an accurate list, though. Still, that is a really cool idea, especially if the new hold started off at GatEB's difficulty level and worked up from there.

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[Last edited by 12th Archivist at 06-09-2012 05:15 PM]

Jatopian
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Yes, but the whole "monsters are passive until you alert them that you're a threat" is a new puzzle mechanic.

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TripleM
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I'm just going to throw in a similar point to what I made about GatEB.

Perhaps having a large number of new elements in the *hold* that comes with the game is not to everyone's tastes, since the hold can only last a short period of time.

But having a large number of new elements in the *engine* is ideal, since the engine needs to last for years by architects.

I don't mind if there's only a few extra elements in the TSS hold, but the more elements that can be coded into the engine the better.

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[Last edited by TripleM at 06-10-2012 01:36 AM]

The spitemaster
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I agree. Aside from 'fireballs' I don't know of any other custom monster that people have made. I think people feel discouraged from making new things because it is one more worry on top of the puzzle that they are producing. Either that or they feel limited by the coding knowledge that they know.

Penweilder's box thing comes to mind too.


EDIT : Operative word being "I don't know"

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[Last edited by The spitemaster at 06-10-2012 04:27 AM]

TFMurphy
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Wanderers.
Guardians.
Warbas.
Salamanders.

Just to name a few.