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Moo
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icon Re: Suggestion: Deadly Music of Death redux boogaloo to the future (0)  
I meant some of the Sound Club samples.
04-19-2012 at 02:24 PM
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Jatopian
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icon Re: Suggestion: Deadly Music of Death redux boogaloo to the future (0)  
So, any word? Only we seem to be getting right up in the end of testing here. There'll be future level pack releases, of course, but there's probably gonna be people who try pack 1 and says, well, this game isn't for me but I like the music.. and then when it's unavailable forget about it forever. Since it's a puzzle game and all. Getting the soundtrack available before the first release would seem to be the most advantageous thing.

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05-13-2012 at 01:36 AM
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mrimer
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Jatopian wrote:
So, any word? Only we seem to be getting right up in the end of testing here. There'll be future level pack releases, of course, but there's probably gonna be people who try pack 1 and says, well, this game isn't for me but I like the music.. and then when it's unavailable forget about it forever. Since it's a puzzle game and all. Getting the soundtrack available before the first release would seem to be the most advantageous thing.
Good news! Erik gave permission to sell DMOD from the CaravelGames site (only), so I've made the DMOD collection available for digital download there. The CD edition was $15, and we're pricing this version at $9. Schik is helping me hook this up on the forum, and you can order this immediately from the site. The music is mp3 format, sampled at 256kbs. The collection comes to 131MB.

I'll mention this again in the June Illumination, hopefully right along with FDROD!

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05-28-2012 at 10:46 PM
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Jatopian
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icon Re: Suggestion: Deadly Music of Death redux boogaloo to the future (0)  
woooo :yay

I assume it's not quite ready yet, seeing as the DMOD image on the Games page links to the GatEB page, and the description still says that there are only 18 tracks, and includes a link to a Plimus order page. That and the other pages are same as always. Still, this is good news.

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05-29-2012 at 12:05 AM
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robin
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icon Re: Suggestion: Deadly Music of Death redux boogaloo to the future (+1)  
Just bought this 5 minutes ago and download will be complete when I click "send reply" to post this post :)

(So Plimus works this time) ;)

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05-29-2012 at 02:08 PM
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mrimer wrote:
Jatopian wrote:
So, any word? Only we seem to be getting right up in the end of testing here. There'll be future level pack releases, of course, but there's probably gonna be people who try pack 1 and says, well, this game isn't for me but I like the music.. and then when it's unavailable forget about it forever. Since it's a puzzle game and all. Getting the soundtrack available before the first release would seem to be the most advantageous thing.
Good news! Erik gave permission to sell DMOD from the CaravelGames site (only), so I've made the DMOD collection available for digital download there. The CD edition was $15, and we're pricing this version at $9. Schik is helping me hook this up on the forum, and you can order this immediately from the site. The music is mp3 format, sampled at 256kbs. The collection comes to 131MB.

I'll mention this again in the June Illumination, hopefully right along with FDROD!

Great news! :)

Out of curiosity, will the people who bought the CD when it came out have access to the mp3 files? I would also be interested in having the cover picture in a nice format.

Btw, the image of the DMOD CD cover (in the front page) links to GatEB info page, instead to the DMOD info page.
05-29-2012 at 04:38 PM
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Bombadil wrote:
Out of curiosity, will the people who bought the CD when it came out have access to the mp3 files?
Sure, that's fine. However, I think we don't have the original CD order information registered anywhere on the forum, so you'll have to resend your original order # or something that will help me to validate the order happened. Then we can hook you up!
I would also be interested in having the cover picture in a nice format.
The CD cover image and the inside image are also part of the download. Yay! Unfortunately, they aren't the original master images -- Erik lost those on a hard drive crash about five years ago, but they are of pretty good quality and over 1400x1400 pixels.
Btw, the image of the DMOD CD cover (in the front page) links to GatEB info page, instead to the DMOD info page.
Thanks, I overlooked that. The "More info" and "buy now" links work though. I'll fix the image link tonight.

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Gandalf? Yes... That's what they used to call me.
Gandalf the Grey. That was my name.
I am Gandalf the White.
And I come back to you now at the turn of the tide.

[Last edited by mrimer at 05-29-2012 04:58 PM]
05-29-2012 at 04:57 PM
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icon Re: Suggestion: Deadly Music of Death redux boogaloo to the future (+1)  
Bombadil -- ah, I just got your order #. I've confirmed your order and granted you a DMOD license. You should be able to download it now.

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Gandalf? Yes... That's what they used to call me.
Gandalf the Grey. That was my name.
I am Gandalf the White.
And I come back to you now at the turn of the tide.
05-29-2012 at 05:10 PM
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Bombadil
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mrimer wrote:
Bombadil wrote:
Out of curiosity, will the people who bought the CD when it came out have access to the mp3 files?
Sure, that's fine. However, I think we don't have the original CD order information registered anywhere on the forum, so you'll have to resend your original order # or something that will help me to validate the order happened. Then we can hook you up!

gamer_extreme_101 has already contacted me regarding this. THAT's efficiency! :thumbsup

mrimer wrote:
I would also be interested in having the cover picture in a nice format.
The CD cover image and the inside image are also part of the download. Yay! Unfortunately, they aren't the original master images -- Erik lost those on a hard drive crash about five years ago, but they are of pretty good quality and over 1400x1400 pixels.

That's more than enough (at least for me!).

Thanks a lot Caravel once more for being great!
05-29-2012 at 05:13 PM
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Bombadil wrote:
gamer_extreme_101 has already contacted me regarding this. THAT's efficiency! :thumbsup
Yeah, we semi-collided on asking so I forwarded him your info.

Really glad to see this come. Has there been any word on Jon setting up a similar album of music for his contributions?

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05-29-2012 at 06:28 PM
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mrimer
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gamer_extreme_101 wrote:
Really glad to see this come. Has there been any word on Jon setting up a similar album of music for his contributions?
I myself haven't heard anything about this, so I'd like to hear if anyone catches any news. I will be sending Jon a CD of GatEB when we print them.

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Gandalf? Yes... That's what they used to call me.
Gandalf the Grey. That was my name.
I am Gandalf the White.
And I come back to you now at the turn of the tide.
05-29-2012 at 07:24 PM
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mrimer wrote:
Bombadil -- ah, I just got your order #. I've confirmed your order and granted you a DMOD license. You should be able to download it now.

Our posts collided and I didn't see your reply until now. Thanks a lot mrimer and gamer_extreme_101!

Btw, while the soundtrack package was downloading I was not able to reply or open other forum threads. I had noticed this before, but I think I read somewhere that this had been fixed?
05-30-2012 at 08:35 AM
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Jatopian
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The relevant site pages and Games page listing seem to indicate this is just the original DMOD release put up for download. If this is true, I worry that a soundtrack with over half the tracks in JtRH/FDROD arbitrarily excluded will not sell well, especially since there's no easy way to know which title refers to which in-game track. Players may respond better if they can see that whatever track or tracks they really liked are available on this album (except for the title track, a lone exception which can be mentioned), thus neatly sidestepping the issue of the player not knowing track titles.

Additionally, it seems nearly half of the AE tracks would be missing, unless I am terribly mistaken?

However, hopefully all this is not the case any longer, and these pages simply haven't been updated yet; in this case I encourage Caravel to do so before FDROD starts bringing in potential customers.

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06-01-2012 at 08:41 AM
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mrimer
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Jatopian wrote:
The relevant site pages and Games page listing seem to indicate this is just the original DMOD release put up for download. If this is true, I worry that a soundtrack with over half the tracks in JtRH/FDROD arbitrarily excluded will not sell well, especially since there's no easy way to know which title refers to which in-game track. Players may respond better if they can see that whatever track or tracks they really liked are available on this album (except for the title track, a lone exception which can be mentioned), thus neatly sidestepping the issue of the player not knowing track titles.

Additionally, it seems nearly half of the AE tracks would be missing, unless I am terribly mistaken?

However, hopefully all this is not the case any longer, and these pages simply haven't been updated yet; in this case I encourage Caravel to do so before FDROD starts bringing in potential customers.
Yes, this is the DMOD rereleased for download. This is the track listing that has always been in DMOD. It has about half of the AE and JtRH tracks. This is the way DMOD has always been. We could work on creating a Volume 2 that contains the other half.

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Gandalf? Yes... That's what they used to call me.
Gandalf the Grey. That was my name.
I am Gandalf the White.
And I come back to you now at the turn of the tide.

[Last edited by mrimer at 06-01-2012 01:35 PM]
06-01-2012 at 01:34 PM
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mrimer wrote:
Yes, this is the DMOD rereleased for download. This is the track listing that has always been in DMOD. It has about half of the AE and JtRH tracks. This is the way DMOD has always been. We could work on creating a Volume 2 that contains the other half.
It may be what DMOD has always been, but it's not what Jatopian requested in the original post. It's probably worth rereading, since it does have some rather compelling arguments about how a revised OST for DROD should be compiled, and it would save Jatopian from having to make the same arguments again to remind people.
06-01-2012 at 01:42 PM
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mrimer
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TFMurphy wrote:
mrimer wrote:
Yes, this is the DMOD rereleased for download. This is the track listing that has always been in DMOD. It has about half of the AE and JtRH tracks. This is the way DMOD has always been. We could work on creating a Volume 2 that contains the other half.
It may be what DMOD has always been, but it's not what Jatopian requested in the original post. It's probably worth rereading, since it does have some rather compelling arguments about how a revised OST for DROD should be compiled, and it would save Jatopian from having to make the same arguments again to remind people.
Sure, I understand. Let me clarify where I'm coming from. It may not be a smart business decision in the short- or long-term, but I personally generally try to prioritize what our long-time fans want in order to better enjoy DROD over expanding our market. "I'm a developer, Jim, not a salesman!" We followed a different path in releasing GatEB, with mixed results. But, I've explained many of the reasons we pursued that project elsewhere, and won't rehash it here.

To elaborate on what that has to do with DMOD. By his posts, Jatopian seems to often assume the worst when interpreting what is up with Caravel. I'd like to reply to his initial perceptions on the DMOD album. We didn't stop selling the DMOD CD because it sold poorly, or it somehow failed. We stopped selling it because our original print run sold out, and we've prioritized other projects over making this album available again since that time. It's always nice to have more sales of any particular product, but the world of DROD is getting huge, and there are only so many projects we can be working on at once. I feel we have been releasing all kinds of content at a pretty good pace lately. I'd always like to go faster, but I'm pretty satisfied with how we've been doing this year.

So! Aside from Jatopian's request, I've been hearing long-time fans would like to get the DMOD album for a while now, so I've prioritized rereleasing it here for digital download over making a new album available for the sake of potential fans we don't even have yet. I'm focusing on current fans who want DROD content now over potential fans that may or may not want content in the future. And, time is almost *always* Caravel's most valuable asset and investment into any project. Saying a project will only cost Caravel time to produce is actually not an alluring prospect.

Also, though Jatopian claims this from time to time, the DROD:AE music is not public domain. Informally, yes, one might call it that, since the music is available. However, in this context we're talking about, public domain formally means that the IP rights to this music are somehow no longer applicable. In fact, Erik retains rights to his music, and it is only distributed with certain permissions. Erik recently gave me permission to sell the tracks he's included in AE and JtRH, but only on the Caravel Games website. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand that means selling tracks through Bandcamp or other sites is out.

Performing micro-transactions through our payment processors is not cost effective, so we are selling albums instead of tracks. As I said above, we can provide some additional or even alternate collections for sale, but with much overlap, that might start confusing people.

I will plan to put more information up on the DMOD tracks page on the site explaining how the song names line up with the in-game room styles.

____________________________
Gandalf? Yes... That's what they used to call me.
Gandalf the Grey. That was my name.
I am Gandalf the White.
And I come back to you now at the turn of the tide.
06-01-2012 at 02:27 PM
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Banjooie
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...please tell me that he didn't specifically exclude Bandcamp and say something like 'oh, as long as it's only Caravel', and you just didn't /ask/ about Bandcamp.

Because if Erik's intentionally tendon-cutting here in the name of whatever ideological principle he has I may die laughing.
06-01-2012 at 08:58 PM
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Thank you, Mike, for clarifying in such detail. After reading your post, I have a much better understanding of the issues here.

I would like to note, though, that I can indeed see where one of the points of confusion came from, because I must admit that I also had the same impression, and even now am still a bit confused as to the distinctions. :blush

Namely, you clarify for us:
mrimer wrote:
Also, though Jatopian claims this from time to time, the DROD:AE music is not public domain. Informally, yes, one might call it that, since the music is available. However, in this context we're talking about, public domain formally means that the IP rights to this music are somehow no longer applicable. In fact, Erik retains rights to his music, and it is only distributed with certain permissions...
I, too, believed that the AE music was in the public domain, based on a recollection of past posts. A quick search turned up for me a number of Erik's posts that were indeed the source of my belief. One of those is here, though there are others. I'm guessing that this simply means I don't understand the legalese fine print, but at least it shows where some of us got this idea in the first place. :)

[Last edited by Panther at 06-01-2012 10:22 PM]
06-01-2012 at 10:21 PM
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Banjooie, I didn't ask Erik specifically for permission to sell music on Bandcamp. I asked if he would grant Caravel permission to sell the JtRH music, and he replied "Yes, you can sell them, but just on the caravelgames site." I think it's pretty cut and dry. I think that's generous of Erik to permit this for the sake of DROD fans, and I'm not going to try to wheedle additional permissions after he made this decision.

Panther, thanks for the link. Yes, that's pretty clear, but also confusing to me. I might be the source of all this confusion, but as I understand it, public domain technically means no residual rights to a creation remain (e.g., the works of Shakespeare). I didn't think that an author, on his own authority, can relinquish all residual rights to his own creation just by saying so. That is, stating "Hey, I declare I have no rights!" doesn't make it so. However, as long as Erik doesn't mind, and we're following the spirit of the law, I'm fine with letting this fine point go and having Caravel attempt to sell the AE tunes on Bandcamp and elsewhere. However, since they're already available anyway, I don't see much point in this. I understand we're mostly talking about making the JtRH tracks for sale here, not the AE ones, since those are the tunes featured in FDROD. So, this may be a moot point.

____________________________
Gandalf? Yes... That's what they used to call me.
Gandalf the Grey. That was my name.
I am Gandalf the White.
And I come back to you now at the turn of the tide.

[Last edited by mrimer at 06-02-2012 06:00 AM]
06-02-2012 at 05:55 AM
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> generous of a guy who left the company to allow the company to sell the music of its own game

Click here to view the secret text


I'm not even putting that in secret tags.

okay

okay /fine/

[Last edited by Banjooie at 06-02-2012 07:59 AM]
06-02-2012 at 07:57 AM
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Banjooie wrote:
> generous of a guy who left the company to allow the company to sell the music of its own game
Err, doesn't it make sense to have the music Erik created belong to Erik and not the company Erik's no longer part of. I'm not saying this is or always should be the case in these matters, but I don't see why you're implying it's wrong...

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06-02-2012 at 09:59 PM
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Rheb wrote:
Banjooie wrote:
> generous of a guy who left the company to allow the company to sell the music of its own game
Err, doesn't it make sense to have the music Erik created belong to Erik and not the company Erik's no longer part of. I'm not saying this is or always should be the case in these matters, but I don't see why you're implying it's wrong...
I can understand how this situation is disappointing for people. I agree with you, Rheb. I perceive this situation as being like how Jon Sonnenberg contracted out some music to use in our last couple of games, and Emmett Plant wrote some music for another. This doesn't give us a right to resell or redistribute Jon's or Emmett's music. Being a present or past member of the game company doesn't alter this situation, as we had no special transferral of rights involving music media at that time. Erik said we can use his media assets already in DROD in future Caravel games, but not apply them to any context Caravel feels like.

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Gandalf? Yes... That's what they used to call me.
Gandalf the Grey. That was my name.
I am Gandalf the White.
And I come back to you now at the turn of the tide.

[Last edited by mrimer at 06-02-2012 10:05 PM]
06-02-2012 at 10:04 PM
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Banjooie
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How are the rights to the media in this series such an unholy trainwreck? Actually, can we expand that to 'how are the rights to anything DROD-related such a horrifying tangled ball of yarn?

I think there may actually be skeletons of law students tangled up in there somewhere.

Like what happened? How did it get this ridiculous and I defy /anyone/ to tell me it isn't ridiculous.
06-03-2012 at 02:06 AM
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mrimer
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Well, I guess anyone can e-mail Erik and ask him to untangle the mess. However, I'll deny that I made the suggestion to send a mob of angry forumites with pitchforks and torches to his doorstep. Uh, until he reads this thread, of course.

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Gandalf? Yes... That's what they used to call me.
Gandalf the Grey. That was my name.
I am Gandalf the White.
And I come back to you now at the turn of the tide.
06-03-2012 at 05:36 AM
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What IS it Erik does these days? I know Ethical Spender fell through due to being, like, two years too early an idea...
06-03-2012 at 06:39 AM
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Jatopian
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I'm sure the issue of the legalities of various Caravel properties and resources are fascinating and colorful, as is any endeavor of Erik's, and I say this without sarcasm. I must thank Panther for her summation of the reason I believed that the AE music is public domain. However, I feel it is a less immediate problem than what I am trying to discuss, and that we're getting away from discussion centered on the DROD soundtrack.

That is a beautiful picture Banjooie posted, though, with the sunlight shining through the feathers and on the grass.

Anyway. Mike, first of all, I pitched the idea in these terms because I don't really know you personally. I know you're running a business, so I appealed to your business sense. I didn't mean to paint you as being greedy for money. I would note that while Danforth Strout is everyone's favorite cutthroat running gag salesman, even he would have to admit that it is possible to make money by actually giving people what they want. Ideally, everyone walks away from Caravel transactions happy with what they got. Good business doesn't have to mean thinking up ways to bilk people.

For example, making it convenient and fast to obtain the music (which means making it available by download) is good for everyone. Rabid fans find it very easy to obtain the music - they don't have to wait around until someone on the forum tells them about this buried utility in an old thread. Audiophiles don't have to go convert from one lossy music format to another just to put the tracks. Nobody has to buy and download JtRH until they actually feel like playing JtRH. But while more convenient and satisfying their purchases surely means more people get around to giving you money, it also means fewer fans giving up after a short search for a way to get the music they're after. If you care more about the latter, well and good; but what I propose is what you want either way.

So why did I recommend Bandcamp? Well, I mentioned Bandcamp because I know a lot of small game companies put their soundtracks on there, for various seemingly sound reasons that I won't go into because there's no point. We have downloadable DMOD; that's the main thing. I will note that their ability to listen to an album before buying quite easily addresses the issue of players not knowing what they're buying, but being sure to have all the tracks also does that. FDROD will be free online; they can more or less preview there.

I also wish to posit to you that what our long-time fans want and what potential new fans want is not mutually exclusive. Heck, something a lot of long-time fans would like to see is new fans. I don't know about you, but to me the Caravel community has felt a lot smaller and a bit lonelier every year since TCB's release. I would welcome an influx of new fans, their creativity and their energy, and while we attract them with FDROD, we keep them around by seeming like a nice place to be.

A company with no easily discovered provisions for obtaining the music of the game does not seem like a company thinking about what its customers want, because it is inevitable that someone is going to want the soundtrack, and of those people some are going to want it in a nice album form for their mp3 player of choice. It is like a burger joint not anticipating that someone's going to want fries with that, and most likely ketchup to go with the fries.

Another thing: I think that while you may have heard that what people want is a rerelease of DMOD, what they really want is the DROD soundtrack. Make a poll if you don't believe me. I really don't think people were ever crazy about Erik deciding what they'll listen to. I'm pretty sure that was just a result of limited space on the physical CDs. Someone had to make a judgment call. Now, everyone should be able to get the entire soundtrack and make their own judgment call. (Shame about Emmett Plant's track, but have you asked him about it?)

I don't think it's a good idea to release a "volume two". For one thing, if you were going to have two discs, with music from two games, the logical thing to do would be to divide them by game of origin. One reason for this is consistency in style of music. Another is discreteness of mental association. For another, thirty-odd tracks is not too much for one album - the Aquaria OST has fifty. Finally, if you release another volume with the rest of the JtRH music and charge more than one dollar for it, you're charging more than the price of the game the music is from, which your average buyer's common sense will rebel at, and of course they'll feel really gypped when they learn they could've saved money by buying the game and ripping the music from it legally. Besides, who's going to buy just one volume when you have to buy both just to have one game's complete soundtrack?

So basically what I am saying is that you should put the rest of the JtRH and AE music in DMOD volume 1. Even Plant's track and the not-extended version of "Ancient Machine", if you can. If you won't do it because it makes good business sense, then do it because it's what people actually want. That's a better reason anyway.


P.S. I only mentioned it would cost time because everything costs time and saying "this costs Caravel nothing" would therefore be incorrect. I did not mean to imply it would cost an inordinate amount of time, and I get the feeling if I'd said "costs nothing" you would be making the same point about how valuable time is.

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[Last edited by Jatopian at 06-03-2012 07:10 AM]
06-03-2012 at 07:06 AM
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Dischorran
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tl;dr

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06-03-2012 at 09:22 AM
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Tahnan
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Dischorran wrote:
tl;dr
The "that was far too short, and as a result I did not even attempt to read it" summary of Dischorran's post is that he found Jatopian's post too long to read.
06-03-2012 at 05:17 PM
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Jatopian, thank you for your patient explanation of these issues. This is helpful for me to better understand the ramifications of what Caravel is dealing with. I really appreciate you taking the time to write your thoughts down in a caring and articulate manner.
Jatopian wrote:
So basically what I am saying is that you should put the rest of the JtRH and AE music in DMOD volume 1. Even Plant's track and the not-extended version of "Ancient Machine", if you can. If you won't do it because it makes good business sense, then do it because it's what people actually want. That's a better reason anyway.
That's a fair request, and I agree it's what people would want. I have no problem with this. I'll get to work on packaging all of this content into a single DMOD collection. I'm planning to have anyone that already bought the album be considered an "early adopter/ambassador/whatever", and as a respectful reward for their early fandom, we'll grandfather them in to get the entire collection if they want to redownload it once it's available.

I think there is still a question about naming the collection. I don't want to call the-package-of-everything-AE-and-JtRH "Volume 1", because that's no longer accurate. I think I will make a Volume 2 containing the rest of the music, and both Vol. 1 and 2 will be included as a package deal in a single order. In other words, "buy Vol. 1, get Vol. 2 free". Does this sound alright to everyone?

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[Last edited by mrimer at 06-04-2012 05:45 AM]
06-04-2012 at 05:42 AM
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mrimer wrote:


I think there is still a question about naming the collection. I don't want to call the-package-of-everything-AE-and-JtRH "Volume 1", because that's no longer accurate. I think I will make a Volume 2 containing the rest of the music, and both Vol. 1 and 2 will be included as a package deal in a single order. In other words, "buy Vol. 1, get Vol. 2 free". Does this sound alright to everyone?

I like this.

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06-04-2012 at 08:33 AM
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